Off Topic Thread 4.0

sydthebeat · 22-01-2019 02:00PM

dregin wrote: »

Any of ye made a submission to Dublin City Council opposing a planning application?
Some lunatic has an application for a 6 story block of (mostly) single bed, buy to let apartments about 50m away from us. The artist's impression is of a flat panelled building with loads of glass, nothing like the surrounding red brick buildings. They've also had a conservation assessment done which says that the 200+ year old building on the site can be demolished as long as photos are taken. It's the last of a group of buildings that gave the area its original name. A meeting on Sunday saw a few hundred residents attend, but we're very worried that we're going to have this crap lumped on us in the not to distant future.

Anyone have any advice? I'm hoping to get a submission together today.

my best piece of advice would be to pool together as a resident group, hire a planning consultant and let them prepare the submission on your behalf.

everyone can still sign the submission so it will have weight of numbers, but it will be based on purely planning issues

lay people who send in submissions usually use intangible or vexatious arguments such as "loss of value" " loss of views" etc.

keep the arguments purely planning related, let the consultant thrawl through the various applicable development plans to find policys that arent met or are contravened.

dregin · 22-01-2019 02:27PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

my best piece of advice would be to pool together as a resident group, hire a planning consultant and let them prepare the submission on your behalf.

everyone can still sign the submission so it will have weight of numbers, but it will be based on purely planning issues

lay people who send in submissions usually use intangible or vexatious arguments such as "loss of value" " loss of views" etc.

keep the arguments purely planning related, let the consultant thrawl through the various applicable development plans to find policys that arent met or are contravened.

5 different residents' associations are pooling their resources on this one and employing planning experts. I just wanted to get something in so that I can still take part in the process beyond the last date for submissions.

Zzippy · 22-01-2019 02:28PM

Post up a link to the planning app there so we can see what you're talking about...

irishbucsfan · 22-01-2019 02:34PM

dregin wrote: »

5 different residents' associations are pooling their resources on this one and employing planning experts. I just wanted to get something in so that I can still take part in the process beyond the last date for submissions.

I can get yiz a great deal on yellow vests

dregin · 22-01-2019 02:36PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Post up a link to the planning app there so we can see what you're talking about...

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=4702/18&theTabNo=1&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=4076806%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=4779155%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:DESC%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=4076806%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

b.gud · 22-01-2019 02:45PM

dregin wrote: »

5 different residents' associations are pooling their resources on this one and employing planning experts. I just wanted to get something in so that I can still take part in the process beyond the last date for submissions.

We had something similar recently and we got a letter from the planning experts that was sent around to everyone who in the residents association and told to take the general jist of that letter but change it slightly.

Zzippy · 22-01-2019 02:58PM

dregin wrote: »

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=4702/18&theTabNo=1&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=4076806%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=4779155%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:DESC%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=4076806%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

Well, that is *slightly* out of character for the area alright! Good luck with it!

mfceiling · 22-01-2019 06:26PM

dregin wrote: »

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=4702/18&theTabNo=1&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=4076806%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=4779155%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:DESC%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=4076806%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

I'm not going to laugh but I knew it was there when you mentioned it!!
My wife isn't happy with the proposed development either.
Me being hateful thought "that would be a grand job for me to be on...5 mins from the house to work!!"

swiwi_ · 22-01-2019 06:28PM

dregin wrote: »

5 different residents' associations are pooling their resources on this one and employing planning experts. I just wanted to get something in so that I can still take part in the process beyond the last date for submissions.

Surely in Ireland the single most important thing is to have the local TD on your side, no...?

Buer · 22-01-2019 06:36PM

swiwi_ wrote: »

Surely in Ireland the single most important thing is to have the local TD on your side, no...?

Call me cynical but I suspect in an area with a high voter turn out, there will be no shortage of local politicians already offering their services.

dregin · 22-01-2019 06:38PM

swiwi_ wrote: »

Surely in Ireland the single most important thing is to have the local TD on your side, no...?

There were senators and councillors at the meeting. TD's would be loathe to go near it in the middle of a housing crisis. People aren't against sustainable housing. 55 single bed buy to lets isn't sustainable anything.

swiwi_ · 22-01-2019 06:41PM

Buer wrote: »

Call me cynical but I suspect in an area with a high voter turn out, there will be no shortage of local politicians already offering their services.

I remember being gobsmacked in Cork, when people would enlist their local TD to get their passport a bit quicker, because they had forgotten to send in the paperwork etc.

In NZ, and most definitely in Switzerland, people would think "you forgot to send it in, sort it out yourselves!"

In any case, a TD who can pull strings seems like a very useful asset in matters of planning permission.

Squidgy Black · 22-01-2019 06:50PM

dregin wrote: »

There were senators wnd councillors at the meeting. TD's would be loathe to go near it in the middle of a housing crisis. People aren't against sustainable housing. 55 single bed buy to lets isn't sustainable anything.

You'd be surprised, Aodhan O'Riordan and Finian McGrath lodged complaints against a development on Griffith avenue recently.

Buer · 22-01-2019 07:06PM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

dregin wrote: »

There were senators wnd councillors at the meeting. TD's would be loathe to go near it in the middle of a housing crisis. People aren't against sustainable housing. 55 single bed buy to lets isn't sustainable anything.

You'd be surprised, Aodhan O'Riordan and Finian McGrath lodged complaints against a development on Griffith avenue recently.

Varadkar and Martin have both written letters in support of blocking developments. Martin's objection is ongoing against student accommodation in his constituency.

These guys know where their bread is buttered; some public criticism isn't going to give them a moment's hesitation.

irishbucsfan · 22-01-2019 07:13PM

dregin wrote: »

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=4702/18&theTabNo=1&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=4076806%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=4779155%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:DESC%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=4076806%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

If you want me to egg their office let me know, it’s over the road from me

thomond2006 · 22-01-2019 07:18PM

I can throw pear and bacon sandwiches at the office. They'll hate that.

troyzer · 22-01-2019 07:30PM

dregin wrote: »

swiwi_ wrote: »

Surely in Ireland the single most important thing is to have the local TD on your side, no...?

There were senators and councillors at the meeting. TD's would be loathe to go near it in the middle of a housing crisis. People aren't against sustainable housing. 55 single bed buy to lets isn't sustainable anything.

Single bet lets are exactly what's needed at the moment.

Zzippy · 23-01-2019 10:13AM

troyzer wrote: »

Single bet lets are exactly what's needed at the moment.

They may be needed but having a whole development of them is not desirable. It's just cramming as many units in as possible to maximise revenue. We need sustainable communities with a mix of young people, families and older people, not wholesale single bed developments that will be rented to students and young workers who go out 3 nights a week and go home at the weekend.

dregin · 23-01-2019 10:28AM

Zzippy wrote: »

They may be needed but having a whole development of them is not desirable. It's just cramming as many units in as possible to maximise revenue. We need sustainable communities with a mix of young people, families and older people, not wholesale single bed developments that will be rented to students and young workers who go out 3 nights a week and go home at the weekend.

Terenure's pretty much exclusively populated by families. The proposed single bed apartments won't be affordable by the people they'd suit who actually work in the village. This size of development needs a train line for commuters. The traffic here's bad enough as it is without adding another 37 cars to the mix exiting the complex straight on to the junction.

troyzer · 23-01-2019 10:28AM

Zzippy wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Single bet lets are exactly what's needed at the moment.

They may be needed but having a whole development of them is not desirable. It's just cramming as many units in as possible to maximise revenue. We need sustainable communities with a mix of young people, families and older people, not wholesale single bed developments that will be rented to students and young workers who go out 3 nights a week and go home at the weekend.

Single bed lets are not just needed for students or young people. There is a huge amount of older single people who either have to or choose to live on their own but often find themselves competing with couples or families.

I'm not too sad about the demise of the bedsit but it did cater to a lot of people, particularly men in their 40s+.

dregin · 23-01-2019 10:34AM

troyzer wrote: »

Single bed lets are not just needed for students or young people. There is a huge amount of older single people who either have to or choose to live on their own but often find themselves competing with couples or families.

I'm not too sad about the demise of the bedsit but it did cater to a lot of people, particularly men in their 40s+.

Compare Rathmines to the villages on each side of it - Ranelagh and Rathgar. They've vastly more appealing to people looking to raise families. It's peppered with absolute ****e that no one would want on their doorstep - euro shops, awful fast food, vape shops. The difference is that it has a name for having been bed sit central. The bigger buildings in a town/village define it and this sack of crap would drag Terenure down to Rathmines levels.

</snob>

Buer · 23-01-2019 10:35AM

To play devil's advocate (and there have been large developments rejected in my own area due to group objections), I would see any sort of development as being a positive in terms of alleviating the housing crisis.

Terenure has a lot of families...it also has a lot of elderly people who are living in family homes which are worth significant sums. Whilst I don't think there would be a massive appetite for it, I have no doubt that some older people would much rather a small, manageable apartment near all the amenities rather than a larger property with all associated upkeep. It's easy for me to say now but, in 30 years, I would be very open to downsizing from my house and garden for a nice apartment with a common outdoor area.

My biggest bugbear with new developments is the lack of infratructure that is being introduced alongside the additional housing. You can't dump hundreds of properties into a densely populated area without improving the transport links at the very least.

troyzer · 23-01-2019 10:39AM

Buer wrote: »

To play devil's advocate (and there have been large developments rejected in my own area due to group objections), I would see any sort of development as being a positive in terms of alleviating the housing crisis.

Terenure has a lot of families...it also has a lot of elderly people who are living in family homes which are worth significant sums. Whilst I don't think there would be a massive appetite for it, I have no doubt that some older people would much rather a small, manageable apartment near all the amenities rather than a larger property with all associated upkeep. It's easy for me to say now but, in 30 years, I would be very open to downsizing from my house and garden for a nice apartment with a common outdoor area.

My biggest bugbear with new developments is the lack of infratructure that is being introduced alongside the additional housing. You can't dump hundreds of properties into a densely populated area without improving the transport links at the very least.

The issue here is that while step down housing has been successful in other countries, you have to build them in the same area. My grandparents live in a six bed corner unit in Palmerstown on their own and would be quite happy to move into a smaller unit. But doing so would mean moving away from their friends and activity groups. They're not the most mobile so location is critical.

dregin · 23-01-2019 10:41AM

Buer wrote: »

To play devil's advocate (and there have been large developments rejected in my own area due to group objections), I would see any sort of development as being a positive in terms of alleviating the housing crisis.

Terenure has a lot of families...it also has a lot of elderly people who are living in family homes which are worth significant sums. Whilst I don't think there would be a massive appetite for it, I have no doubt that some older people would much rather a small, manageable apartment near all the amenities rather than a larger property with all associated upkeep. It's easy for me to say now but, in 30 years, I would be very open to downsizing from my house and garden for a nice apartment with a common outdoor area.

My biggest bugbear with new developments is the lack of infratructure that is being introduced alongside the additional housing. You can't dump hundreds of properties into a densely populated area without improving the transport links at the very least.

As many of the locals who spoke at the meeting are. This development doesn't cater to families or people who want to live here long-term.

We can't get permission to open our front garden for car access because we're too close to the junction, but this development is ~50 metres closer and the car park entrance is on our road! The traffic is bad enough as is. Adding another 37 cars to the mix ALONG with the bus corridoor making templeogue road one-way is just bananas.

Synode · 23-01-2019 10:42AM

dregin wrote: »

Compare Rathmines to the villages on each side of it - Ranelagh and Rathgar. They've vastly more appealing to people looking to raise families. It's peppered with absolute ****e that no one would want on their doorstep - euro shops, awful fast food, vape shops. The difference is that it has a name for having been bed sit central. The bigger buildings in a town/village define it and this sack of crap would drag Terenure down to Rathmines levels.

</snob>

Rathmines Village itself is regenerating nicely the last few years. And you mustn't have spent much time there if you think it's only known for bedsits. There are some absolutely huge, beautifully kept houses in Rathmines. Populated by families. Very wealthy families at that.

dregin · 23-01-2019 10:46AM

Synode wrote: »

Rathmines Village itself is regenerating nicely the last few years. And you mustn't have spent much time there if you think it's only known for bedsits. There are some absolutely huge, beautifully kept houses in Rathmines. Populated by families. Very wealthy families at that.

Ah I know I'm being OTT. But just comparing it to the villages on each side, it would definitely be far below them in my order of preference, if I won the lotto.

Zzippy · 23-01-2019 11:07AM

dregin wrote: »

As many of the locals who spoke at the meeting are. This development doesn't cater to families or people who want to live here long-term.

We can't get permission to open our front garden for car access because we're too close to the junction, but this development is ~50 metres closer and the car park entrance is on our road! The traffic is bad enough as is. Adding another 37 cars to the mix ALONG with the bus corridoor making templeogue road one-way is just bananas.

Unfortunately planners will probably look at that as an existing access, and as it is currently an access to a presumably busy car dealership, they would not envisage an increase in traffic. My folks house is very close to a fairly new Lidl shop - when it was going through planning there were objections over increased traffic. But there was an existing petrol station there that had the access so those objections were overruled. Now you can barely get down the road at certain times because the cars are queuing to get into the Lidl car park...

mfceiling · 23-01-2019 11:14AM

It will be a bollox of a place to get in and out of if it goes ahead. It's a disaster of a junction at the best if times. I live about a mile from there and if I'm going in to town I'll never go via terenure because it'll always be jammed.

sydthebeat · 23-01-2019 12:12PM

dregin wrote: »

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=4702/18&theTabNo=1&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=4076806%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=4779155%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:DESC%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=4076806%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

after a quick view id have the followig comments:

1. theyve included a traffic impact assessment which says the development will operate within expected capacity. If you question this you'll need to back up your claims... perhaps photos of the junction at its worst times... and question the choice of a Thursday from 7:00am to 7pm as being an dadequate reflection of teh status quo there.

2. 73% one bed and 27% 2 bed. Not a great mix of development, but id be surprised if an application of this scale hasnt had a lot of pre submission consultation with area planners... and that ratio must be in or around what ha sbeen suggested. Sometimes ratios are put in in the expectancy of some negotiation, and the developers may actually be happy with a 60 / 40 split?

3. the application is actually very well prepared. They are foreseeing a lot of potential objections already by including a planning consultants reports to show how it complies with develeopment plan objectives. Theyve included Part L and NZEB reports (a lot of which is filler and just regurgitation or regulation), landscaping and screening reports, architectural heritage report, social impact report, traffic impact report, construction managemnt plan, design statement and engineering reports. There has been not much spared and a lot of money spent on preparing it.

so my first impressions would be that its likely that this development would be granted , with some minor alterations, perhaps more 2 bed units and some token 3 bed units, possibly at the loss of one of the commercial units.

still with out planing system, id expect it to go to ABP and for them to take the best part of a year to make their decision, so you could be looking at approx 18 months before theres a final decision on it.

CatFromHue · 24-01-2019 12:26AM

when you look at the planning process and how many stages it takes to get something built it's not really surprising we have a housing problem.

Off Topic Thread 4.0

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