Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

AndrewJRenko · 22-01-2019 05:04PM

sabat wrote: »

I can't think of any other "scientific" field where literally the only evidence is words coming out of a child's mouth.

Child psychiatry?

Bannasidhe · 22-01-2019 05:06PM

conorhal wrote: »

What is the current legal and medical situation regards minors and transitioning in this country? Genuine question, I've no idea if any particular guidelines or legal positions exist.

I have no idea tbh.

I just happen to know a lot of young people (and not so young) who are/have transitioned.

Some of whom I have known since they were very young children. Children who were so badly behaved the experts wanted to proscribe them various 'ADHD' drugs but their mother refused. Now they are happy, healthy adults and have a great relationship with their very supportive and loving mother.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 22-01-2019 05:13PM

If people are confident in their opinions and viewpoints they should have no problem debating them in a public forum.

sabat · 22-01-2019 05:21PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have no idea tbh.

I just happen to know a lot of young people (and not so young) who are/have transitioned.

Some of whom I have known since they were very young children. Children who were so badly behaved the experts wanted to proscribe them various 'ADHD' drugs but their mother refused. Now they are happy, healthy adults and have a great relationship with their very supportive and loving mother.

"Mother" (single?) not "parents" who knows better than doctors? (not that I agree with this type of diagnosis or medication) There's a couple of clues right there as to the root of the child's mental disorder...

Will I Am Not · 22-01-2019 05:33PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

On this issue, he literally is 'some randomer'. He has no experience and no expertise.

And tell me more about your research with licence payers to assess their opinions? Are we going down the Trump road of majority opinion taking precedence over experts?

He’s in the public eye for his views. Hardly a left field choice for RTE if they’re looking for an opposing voice.
Prime Time is a current affairs television programme, it’s not a televised think tank exclusively for experts.

I’ve not done any research but it’s evident that a lot of the general public hold similar views to Linehan. I’m sure you’ve noticed from reading through the many threads here over the years?

Bannasidhe · 22-01-2019 05:46PM

sabat wrote: »

"Mother" (single?) not "parents" who knows better than doctors? (not that I agree with this type of diagnosis or medication) There's a couple of clues right there as to the root of the child's mental disorder...

Yeah, sometimes marriages break up.
Feck off with your amateur psychology.

They did not have a mental 'disorder' as you wish to style it - they had gender dysphoria. And now they have transgendered and no longer suffer from gender dysphoria or any other disorder you may care to suggest to suit whatever agenda you are trying to push.

donkeykong5 · 22-01-2019 05:51PM

Heard Graham linehan on the niall boylan show today. Sounded fine to me. Will definitely tune in tonight.

Will I Am Not · 22-01-2019 05:55PM

donkeykong5 wrote: »

Heard Graham linehan on the niall boylan show today. Sounded fine to me. Will definitely tune in tonight.

Heard him on 2 different radio shows today and all he seems to want is people to be able to discuss and research without being shut down. I don’t follow him on Twitter or anything so I’m not aware if he has actually said anything terrible but he seemed fairly reasonable on both shows today.

jobbridge4life · 22-01-2019 06:59PM

Will I Am Not wrote: »

He’s in the public eye for his views. Hardly a left field choice for RTE if they’re looking for an opposing voice.
Prime Time is a current affairs television programme, it’s not a televised think tank exclusively for experts.

Prime Time is a publicaly funded current affairs and investigative programme. Of course it should insist on having informed, and reasonable individuals on to inform the public. Not just any individual of public noteriety with an axe to grind on any issue.

I await Katy Price's opinion on the ethics of the industrialisation of agrian land for the purpose of electricity generation.

Will I Am Not wrote: »

I’ve not done any research but it’s evident that a lot of the general public hold similar views to Linehan. I’m sure you’ve noticed from reading through the many threads here over the years?

The first clause of your first sentence ought surely have been enough to dissuade you from further typing?

PistolsAtDawn · 22-01-2019 07:14PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yeah, sometimes marriages break up.
Feck off with your amateur psychology.

They did not have a mental 'disorder' as you wish to style it - they had gender dysphoria. And now they have transgendered and no longer suffer from gender dysphoria or any other disorder you may care to suggest to suit whatever agenda you are trying to push.

I identify as half eaten packet of Tayto.

I do not have a mental disorder.

I have dhvalsdihv dysphoria.

I was diagnosed by my mate who identified as a world renowned researcher one afternoon, luckily, I had called over to his/her (gender fluid mate) at the same time and he/she diagnosed me on the spot.

I am normal.

I.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 22-01-2019 07:16PM

There’s a hell of a lot of argument to authority here, but psychiatry is a very very weak authority.

In particular psychological diagnosis is largely based on what the patient says, it’s not like we have a clue about the brain or can use medical imaging to determine most diagnosis. That’s obviously problematic for children.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 22-01-2019 07:19PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have no idea tbh.

I just happen to know a lot of young people (and not so young) who are/have transitioned.

Some of whom I have known since they were very young children. Children who were so badly behaved the experts wanted to proscribe them various 'ADHD' drugs but their mother refused. Now they are happy, healthy adults and have a great relationship with their very supportive and loving mother.

Fair play to the mother there. She argued, correctly in my view, against the experts.

jobbridge4life · 22-01-2019 07:23PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s a hell of a lot of argument to authority here, but psychiatry is a very very weak authority.
.

Weaker than?

Will I Am Not · 22-01-2019 07:25PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Prime Time is a publicaly funded current affairs and investigative programme. Of course it should insist on having informed, and reasonable individuals on to inform the public. Not just any individual of public noteriety with an axe to grind on any issue.

I await Katy Price's opinion on the ethics of the industrialisation of agrian land for the purpose of electricity generation.

The first clause of your first sentence ought surely have been enough to dissuade you from further typing?

Maybe if we didn’t live in a society where people risk their careers and privacy coming forward on certain topics they could have got an “expert” on...

Ok so, everyone paying a TV licence is fine and dandy with everything.

Dyr · 22-01-2019 07:30PM

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Heard him on 2 different radio shows today and all he seems to want is people to be able to discuss and research without being shut down.

Discuss? That is literally targeted harassment, driving people to suicdie on so on and so forth.

jobbridge4life · 22-01-2019 07:30PM

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Maybe if we didn’t live in a society where people risk their careers and privacy coming forward on certain topics they could have got an “expert” on...

Ok so, everyone paying a TV licence is fine and dandy with everything.

1. We live in a society where Graham Linehan deciding to dedicate his time to ranting about trans issues, in spite of having precisely zero actual experience in this field, has been as a result gifted several public platforms to air his opinions.

2. There is no shortage of trans, or female, or just plain educated on the topic, individuals offering themselves as alternative. I await their appearance on prime time.

3. TV licence? Graham hasn't lived or paid tax in this country for decades.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 22-01-2019 07:33PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Weaker than?

Weaker than any other science. Not a science in fact. Subject to fads and political, or pharmaceutical company, influence.

AlphabetCards · 22-01-2019 07:40PM

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Heard him on 2 different radio shows today and all he seems to want is people to be able to discuss and research without being shut down. I don’t follow him on Twitter or anything so I’m not aware if he has actually said anything terrible but he seemed fairly reasonable on both shows today.

The thing is, that he is usually the first to try get everyone who he doesn't agree with off the air. Now that the tables have turned he has quietened down.... for now.

Will I Am Not · 22-01-2019 07:55PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

1. We live in a society where Graham Linehan deciding to dedicate his time to ranting about trans issues, in spite of having precisely zero actual experience in this field, has been as a result gifted several public platforms to air his opinions.

2. There is no shortage of trans, or female, or just plain educated on the topic, individuals offering themselves as alternative. I await their appearance on prime time.

3. TV licence? Graham hasn't lived or paid tax in this country for decades.

I was being asked if I had researched when I said there are lots of licence payers that would be coming from the same position as Linehan. Nothing to do with him paying tax or having a licence

Honestly don’t see what the big deal is with him being on PT. It’s just the usual “I don’t like what he says, get him off” type of thing. The only surprise is RTÉ actually having him on, knowing his opinions.

Will I Am Not · 22-01-2019 07:58PM

AlphabetCards wrote: »

The thing is, that he is usually the first to try get everyone who he doesn't agree with off the air. Now that the tables have turned he has quietened down.... for now.

I don’t know anything about him other than the Father Ted and IT Crowd thing, and that he is very opinionated on transgender issues.

jobbridge4life · 22-01-2019 08:06PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Weaker than any other science. Not a science in fact. Subject to fads and political, or pharmaceutical company, influence.

So much to unpack...

Is it just psychiatry you have in your cross hairs? Or all of psychology?

Are you suggesting that other fields of science are not 'subject to fads...'?

Are you suggesting that comedians without any personal, scientific or medical experience ought to be given the same platform as those with?

ligerdub · 22-01-2019 08:09PM

Bannasidhe wrote:

My experience - and I have a fair bit - is it's the other way around. As young teenagers they identified as gay and later as transsexual. After transition most - but not all - then identify as heterosexual. So the gender they were/are attracted to sexually stays the same but their own body changes so it becomes the opposite gender they are attracted to not the same gender.

This isn't a hard and fast rule as every individual is different but it has been my experience with the majority of young people I know who have/are transitioning. And no. None of them are pre-pubescent. All are late teens/early twenties. All are taking hormones, most are waiting for various surgeries - waiting until their bodies have adapted to the hormones and can cope.

I will also say that I have seen them go from deeply unhappy angry kids lashing out at the world to happy adults secure in their own bodies and post-trans gender identity.

I'm glad that there are success stories, and I'm sure there are. That doesn't change the fact that there are bound to be a lot of stories that did not go so well, what happens then is fairly negative for those people.

This happy go lucky/secure adult post transition narrative doesn't correlate to the numbers.

VeryTerry · 22-01-2019 08:11PM

donkeykong5 wrote: »

Heard Graham linehan on the niall boylan show today. Sounded fine to me. Will definitely tune in tonight.

Going on the Niall Boylan show only cements my opinion that he's an idiot.

Gravelly · 22-01-2019 08:12PM

The trans activists are remarkably similar to the Irish conservative catholics of yesteryear.
The virulent attacks on non-believers, the refusal to entertain any debate whatsoever, the constant appeal to unquestionable authority, the use of children as pawns, and the censorship of alternative voices.

AndrewJRenko · 22-01-2019 08:38PM

Will I Am Not wrote: »

I was being asked if I had researched when I said there are lots of licence payers that would be coming from the same position as Linehan. Nothing to do with him paying tax or having a licence

Honestly don’t see what the big deal is with him being on PT. It’s just the usual “I don’t like what he says, get him off” type of thing. The only surprise is RTÉ actually having him on, knowing his opinions.

Except it's not the usual 'I don't like what he says'. It is the unusual 'He has no expertise or experience.'

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s a hell of a lot of argument to authority here, but psychiatry is a very very weak authority.

In particular psychological diagnosis is largely based on what the patient says, it’s not like we have a clue about the brain or can use medical imaging to determine most diagnosis. That’s obviously problematic for children.

Presumably if one of your children or a child close to you was encountering serious psychiatric difficulties, you'd be steering towards bulletin board experts or indeed local comedians rather than any medically qualified experts to deal with them?

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Heard him on 2 different radio shows today and all he seems to want is people to be able to discuss and research without being shut down. I don’t follow him on Twitter or anything so I’m not aware if he has actually said anything terrible but he seemed fairly reasonable on both shows today.

Not inviting him onto Prime Time is not 'shutting him down'. He still has the right to free speech, to tweet, to publish video, to publish articles.

He just shouldn't be positioned as an authoritative voice to an audience largely new to the topic.

Will I Am Not wrote: »

He’s in the public eye for his views. Hardly a left field choice for RTE if they’re looking for an opposing voice.
Prime Time is a current affairs television programme, it’s not a televised think tank exclusively for experts.

When did you decide this? Do a national public broadcaster not a particular responsibility to be accurate and fair in their flagship news programme?

Will I Am Not wrote: »

I’ve not done any research ...

You lost me at 'I've not done any research'.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

If people are confident in their opinions and viewpoints they should have no problem debating them in a public forum.

This has nothing to do with 'the confidence' or otherwise of debaters. This is about the responsibility of the national public broadcaster to show fair and accurate content on a very sensitive topic on their flagship news programme.

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

What sort of expertise are you looking for on this? Guy has aired views publically before so an easy selection for them and given the reaction to his inclusion they are probably justified. Do I think it's okay, don't see anything wrong with it can explain themselves. If even coming off looking like an oaf so be it very rarely watch RTE myself but will be tuning in to see what all this mad fuss is really over.

The protestors are doing so to censor his views I thought?

Maybe a psychiatrist or psychologist or endocrinologist who has spent a decade or two dealing with transgender people - like Prof Donal O'Shea maybe? Or maybe somebody who has done a Masters and a PhD on the topic, and has a few years experience dealing with people? Or maybe experts by experience, people who have been through the process (or indeed not through the process) themselves and can speak to their own experience?

There is no suggestion about 'censoring his views'. But giving him a national audience of people, many of whom will be new to the topic when he has no expertise or experience is insane. They might as well pick a random poster from this thread and stick them on the air.

AndrewJRenko · 22-01-2019 08:39PM

Gravelly wrote: »

The trans activists are remarkably similar to the Irish conservative catholics of yesteryear.
The virulent attacks on non-believers, the refusal to entertain any debate whatsoever, the constant appeal to unquestionable authority, the use of children as pawns, and the censorship of alternative voices.

Though interestingly, we've had none of those tactics on this thread - just questions about the lack of expertise and experience of the speaker.

AndrewJRenko · 22-01-2019 08:40PM

ligerdub wrote: »

I'm glad that there are success stories, and I'm sure there are. That doesn't change the fact that there are bound to be a lot of stories that did not go so well, what happens then is fairly negative for those people.

This happy go lucky/secure adult post transition narrative doesn't correlate to the numbers.

What numbers are these that you're referring to?

batgoat · 22-01-2019 08:45PM

Gravelly wrote: »

The trans activists are remarkably similar to the Irish conservative catholics of yesteryear.
The virulent attacks on non-believers, the refusal to entertain any debate whatsoever, the constant appeal to unquestionable authority, the use of children as pawns, and the censorship of alternative voices.

Pretty sure I could find posts from the marriage referendum or repeal the 8th where people from the anti side came out with similar statements. I think it's reasonable to view likening being transgender to bulimia to be pretty cruel and harsh. Also not backed up by psychology etc. So yeah I don't think such views being unchallenged to be pretty dodgy. It's not a debate. It's a randomer getting time to soapbox.

ceadaoin. · 22-01-2019 08:55PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What numbers are these that you're referring to?

The numbers that say 60-90% of children who identify as transgender are not in fact trangender as adults. Setting children on a path of hormones and surgery, rather than the watchful waiting approach previously favoured, is a recipe for disaster

In total, there have been three large scale follow-up studies and a handful of smaller ones. I have listed all of them below, together with their results. (In the table, “cis-” means non-transsexual.) Despite the differences in country, culture, decade, and follow-up length and method, all the studies have come to a remarkably similar conclusion: Only very few trans- kids still want to transition by the time they are adults. Instead, they generally turn out to be regular gay or lesbian folks. The exact number varies by study, but roughly 60–90% of trans- kids turn out no longer to be trans by adulthood.

http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html?m=1

Will I Am Not · 22-01-2019 09:08PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Except it's not the usual 'I don't like what he says'. It is the unusual 'He has no expertise or experience.'

Presumably if one of your children or a child close to you was encountering serious psychiatric difficulties, you'd be steering towards bulletin board experts or indeed local comedians rather than any medically qualified experts to deal with them?

Not inviting him onto Prime Time is not 'shutting him down'. He still has the right to free speech, to tweet, to publish video, to publish articles.

He just shouldn't be positioned as an authoritative voice to an audience largely new to the topic.

When did you decide this? Do a national public broadcaster not a particular responsibility to be accurate and fair in their flagship news programme?

You lost me at 'I've not done any research'.

This has nothing to do with 'the confidence' or otherwise of debaters. This is about the responsibility of the national public broadcaster to show fair and accurate content on a very sensitive topic on their flagship news programme.

Maybe a psychiatrist or psychologist or endocrinologist who has spent a decade or two dealing with transgender people - like Prof Donal O'Shea maybe? Or maybe somebody who has done a Masters and a PhD on the topic, and has a few years experience dealing with people? Or maybe experts by experience, people who have been through the process (or indeed not through the process) themselves and can speak to their own experience?

There is no suggestion about 'censoring his views'. But giving him a national audience of people, many of whom will be new to the topic when he has no expertise or experience is insane. They might as well pick a random poster from this thread and stick them on the air.

At least read the posts you’re replying to.

Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

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