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Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

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    #332
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,183 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    There was an article about this in the Times before Christmas. The fact that a property owner has a listing on Airbnb will not meet the burden of proof for prosecution as it is not proof that the guest actually stayed there, and the multitude of platforms available means that monitoring via online info alone is a non runner. For a prosecution, inspectors will actually have to prove a guest stayed in the same way a tv inspector has to prove you don’t have a license by calling to your door.

    So, on the one hand we have a dedicated RTB, specific legislation to limit rents, yet rents increased 14% last year. There is no organisation of manpower to monitor AIRBNB rentals, the councils don’t have the staff, the courts are clogged up and the Government thinks this is going to make a difference?

    I think most Airbnb hosts will advertise for 90 days on Airbnb and the rest on other platforms. I also suspect, like LLs and rents, most hosts will continue as they are at the moment and play the odds against being one of the few who actually gets found out.


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    #333
    Kidkinobe
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭Kidkinobe


    Dav010 wrote: »
    There was an article about this in the Times before Christmas. The fact that a property owner has a listing on Airbnb will not meet the burden of proof for prosecution as it is not proof that the guest actually stayed there, and the multitude of platforms available means that monitoring via online info alone is a non runner. For a prosecution, inspectors will actually have to prove a guest stayed in the same way a tv inspector has to prove you don’t have a license by calling to your door.

    So, on the one hand we have a dedicated RTB, specific legislation to limit rents, yet rents increased 14% last year. There is no organisation of manpower to monitor AIRBNB rentals, the councils don’t have the staff, the courts are clogged up and the Government thinks this is going to make a difference?

    I think most Airbnb hosts will advertise for 90 days on Airbnb and the rest on other platforms. I also suspect, like LLs and rents, most hosts will continue as they are at the moment and play the odds against being one of the few who actually gets found out.

    I believe Airbnb are sharing information with the tax dept...all it will take is for a few to be caught and a few hefty fines put on them for tax evasion/fruad which will entice quite a few hosts to follow the rules or jump ship.


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    #334
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,183 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Kidkinobe wrote: »
    I believe Airbnb are sharing information with the tax dept...all it will take is for a few to be caught and a few hefty fines put on them for tax evasion/fruad which will entice quite a few hosts to follow the rules or jump ship.

    Tax evasion is a completely different issue, not to be confused with the proposed new legislation. Airbnb already share payment details with Revenue, in fact it is the only platform of this type to do so. So as things stand, tax evasion is not an issue with AIRBNB.

    If you are concerned about retrospective prosecution after Revenue receives booking/payment info from Airbnb, I suspect many will switch to booking platforms which don’t share info with Revenue and deal in cash. Airbnb is actually the most transparent, tax complient of all platforms, monies are paid into bank accounts, no cash.


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    #335
    LotharIngum
    Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭LotharIngum


    Dav010 wrote: »
    There was an article about this in the Times before Christmas. The fact that a property owner has a listing on Airbnb will not meet the burden of proof for prosecution as it is not proof that the guest actually stayed there, and the multitude of platforms available means that monitoring via online info alone is a non runner. For a prosecution, inspectors will actually have to prove a guest stayed in the same way a tv inspector has to prove you don’t have a license by calling to your door.

    So, on the one hand we have a dedicated RTB, specific legislation to limit rents, yet rents increased 14% last year. There is no organisation of manpower to monitor AIRBNB rentals, the councils don’t have the staff, the courts are clogged up and the Government thinks this is going to make a difference?

    I think most Airbnb hosts will advertise for 90 days on Airbnb and the rest on other platforms. I also suspect, like LLs and rents, most hosts will continue as they are at the moment and play the odds against being one of the few who actually gets found out.

    Pretty much this. I am one of the only people I know who is keeping their rental property as I will have have a use for it myself anyway. But in the meantime I will never rent it again under the RPZ or RTB rules.

    I was stressing and looking for all sorts of other ways to make money from it when I heard Airbnb was to be banned.

    Then I spoke to a friend who does Airbnb in a city where similar rules were brought in some time ago.

    She gave me a big list of groups and alternative providers to Airbnb that people now use where she is from and it works out very well. Basically its what everyone used to use before Airbnb came along anyway along with a few more engines.

    So Ive decided that Im doing short term lets now and the chances of anything happening with the law are very very slim, so im going to risk it. And Anyone doing Airbnb at the moment will be researching the exact same thing.

    The only loser here is Airbnb. The hotels thought they were the winners, but people will keep doing short term lets rather than pay the huge amounts for a hotel room in Dublin. There is plenty of market there still without even using Airbnb, but there are even cheaper ways of doing short term lets than Airbnb all over the place as I found out.

    Even just google "short term rental search engines".


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    #336
    Kidkinobe
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭Kidkinobe


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Tax evasion is a completely different issue, not to be confused with the proposed new legislation. Airbnb already share payment details with Revenue, in fact it is the only platform of this type to do so. So as things stand, tax evasion is not an issue with AIRBNB.
    Do you know what the penalty is if someone were to be caught using their home as an Airbnb over the allowed time?


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    #337
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,183 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Kidkinobe wrote: »
    Do you know what the penalty is if someone were to be caught using their home as an Airbnb over the allowed time?

    Legislation hasn’t been published yet, so I’m not aware of penalties. But consider the penalties at the moment for illegal rent hikes/evictions, doesn’t stop it from happening.


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    #338
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Kidkinobe wrote: »
    I believe Airbnb are sharing information with the tax dept...all it will take is for a few to be caught and a few hefty fines put on them for tax evasion/fruad which will entice quite a few hosts to follow the rules or jump ship.

    But can revenue share with the council who enforce planning ?

    Why do you presume people will get done for tax evasion? They can still pay taxes


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    #339
    Kidkinobe
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭Kidkinobe


    LotharIngum wrote: »
    Pretty much this. I am one of the only people I know who is keeping their rental property as I will have have a use for it myself anyway. But in the meantime I will never rent it again under the RPZ or RTB rules.

    I was stressing and looking for all sorts of other ways to make money from it when I heard Airbnb was to be banned.

    Then I spoke to a friend who does Airbnb in a city where similar rules were brought in some time ago.

    She gave me a big list of groups and alternative providers to Airbnb that people now use where she is from and it works out very well. Basically its what everyone used to use before Airbnb came along anyway along with a few more engines.

    So Ive decided that Im doing short term lets now and the chances of anything happening with the law are very very slim, so im going to risk it. And Anyone doing Airbnb at the moment will be researching the exact same thing.

    The only loser here is Airbnb. The hotels thought they were the winners, but people will keep doing short term lets rather than pay the huge amounts for a hotel room in Dublin. There is plenty of market there still without even using Airbnb, but there are even cheaper ways of doing short term lets than Airbnb all over the place as I found out.

    Even just google "short term rental search engines".

    Ive been researching it myself as I am looking at buying a place for either renting or short term lets. Its good to hear what others have to say about the situation. I don't want to break the law though as sooner or later, it comes back to bite you in the bottom, especially with world getting so enclosed and more bureaucratic as each day passes.


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    #340
    Kidkinobe
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭Kidkinobe


    ted1 wrote: »
    But can revenue share with the council who enforce planning ?

    Why do you presume people will get done for tax evasion? They can still pay taxes

    If they want to hide how they use their homes, they will have to hide their income .


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    #341
    LotharIngum
    Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭LotharIngum


    Kidkinobe wrote: »
    Ive been researching it myself as I am looking at buying a place for either renting or short term lets. Its good to hear what others have to say about the situation. I don't want to break the law though as sooner or later, it comes back to bite you in the bottom, especially with world getting so enclosed and more bureaucratic as each day passes.


    If I didn't already own the apartment I wouldn't bother buying one. Ireland is not a place to invest in property anymore unless you are a REIT. Your own government, media, customers are all against you. Waste of time even considering it.


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    #342
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Kidkinobe wrote: »
    If they want to hide how they use their homes, they will have to hide their income .

    But what I’m saying is that revenue can’t share with the council so they won’t need to hide it.


  • Options
    #343
    LotharIngum
    Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭LotharIngum


    Kidkinobe wrote: »
    If they want to hide how they use their homes, they will have to hide their income .

    I think you are right.
    Wouldn't take much of non taxed short term to beat out long term rental income these days, so you probably wouldn't have to do much short term or hiding at all to make the same money. But that's what happens when you make being above the table so much less attractive than taking the risk to go under the table.


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    #344
    KevinCavan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 612 ✭✭✭KevinCavan


    It’s all just head line grabbing baloney. It is a great trick the government pulled,to make it look like they are doing something about the housing crisis. It won’t make a blind bit of difference to renters or buyers when this legislation comes in. Much easier than pouring concrete for new houses. It might get a few thumbs up from hoteliers.


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    #345
    Kidkinobe
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭Kidkinobe


    LotharIngum wrote: »
    If I didn't already own the apartment I wouldn't bother buying one. Ireland is not a place to invest in property anymore unless you are a REIT. Your own government, media, customers are all against you. Waste of time even considering it.
    Its not so much an investment, just a place to park my gear long term, a place to sleep when I am in the country (8/10 times a year) and a place to retire when I get too old to live my current lifestyle, all going well will be 15 years away. short term lets will cover costs of owning the place, maintenance etc.
    Paying cash for a property, funded by sales of a few houses overseas, which I am selling up because the govt in the country where the houses are all also attacking LLS and Airbnb hosts. There is no escape from Govts wanting a piece of the pie you worked so hard for.


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    #346
    VeryTerry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭VeryTerry


    Dav010 wrote: »
    There was an article about this in the Times before Christmas. The fact that a property owner has a listing on Airbnb will not meet the burden of proof for prosecution as it is not proof that the guest actually stayed there, and the multitude of platforms available means that monitoring via online info alone is a non runner. For a prosecution, inspectors will actually have to prove a guest stayed in the same way a tv inspector has to prove you don’t have a license by calling to your door.

    So, on the one hand we have a dedicated RTB, specific legislation to limit rents, yet rents increased 14% last year. There is no organisation of manpower to monitor AIRBNB rentals, the councils don’t have the staff, the courts are clogged up and the Government thinks this is going to make a difference?

    I think most Airbnb hosts will advertise for 90 days on Airbnb and the rest on other platforms. I also suspect, like LLs and rents, most hosts will continue as they are at the moment and play the odds against being one of the few who actually gets found out.

    Before I emigrated my neighbor had an airbnb. If I was still living there I would have happily provided all the proof needed and I'd imagine most people living beside one will do the same.


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    #347
    Kidkinobe
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭Kidkinobe


    ted1 wrote: »
    But what I’m saying is that revenue can’t share with the council so they won’t need to hide it.
    Info sharing will be next on the Hitlist, And there are many unhappy people out there living next door to Airbnbs that will be only too happy to pick up the phone to complain about the Airbnb next door that is running well beyond their limit.


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    #348
    LotharIngum
    Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭LotharIngum


    VeryTerry wrote: »
    Before I emigrated my neighbor had an airbnb. If I was still living there I would have happily provided all the proof needed and I'd imagine most people living beside one will do the same.

    I think you overestimate the power and believability of a disgruntled neighbor. Inherently unreliable.
    They are usually treated as an annoyance and ignored. Everyone has one. If I had a euro for every time I was reported or threatened about being reported as not paying my tax, I could just retire today.


    Look how they got on with the minimum passing distance on the roads when they tried to say that helmet cams could be used to prove it. That went well.


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    #349
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Giving up and selling up in June here.


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    #350
    VeryTerry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭VeryTerry


    LotharIngum wrote: »
    I think you overestimate the power and believability of a disgruntled neighbor. Inherently unreliable.
    They are usually treated as an annoyance and ignored. Everyone has one. If I had a euro for every time I was reported or threatened about being reported as not paying my tax, I could just retire today.


    Look how they got on with the minimum passing distance on the roads when they tried to say that helmet cams could be used to prove it. That went well.

    What are you on about?


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    #351
    LotharIngum
    Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭LotharIngum


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Giving up and selling up in June here.

    If you are already used to doing Airbnb im sure it wouldn't be a hard hop to using other platforms. Honestly, I think you would have nothing to worry about. Research alternatives to Airbnb.
    Also give your contact details to any current guests and past guests you have and ask them to pass your number on to their social network and ask them yto contact you directly should they want your apartment in future as you are leaving airbnb. You'll be out the door in no time, and no need for Airbnb at all.

    That's the advice I was given by someone who has been through this malarkey. And ive even received a couple of texts from airbnbs ive stayed in in the past saying exactly that with their numbers


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    #352
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,183 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    VeryTerry wrote: »
    What are you on about?

    He/she means that chances are, you would be ignored when you phone.


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    #353
    doolox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭doolox


    The proposed measure was dropped because it was deemed to be impossible to prove if an infraction occurred.

    So the 1 m and 1.5 m rule remains only a recommendation and not compulsory on car drivers overtaking bikes.

    Similar cautions exist with handling non-expert witnesses with hidden agendas against their neighbours. Police and law enforcement generally are very cautious in using witness statements from people where there is enmity between the accused and the accuser.

    Too easy for the evidence to be thrown out of court by a jury.


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    #354
    VeryTerry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭VeryTerry


    Dav010 wrote: »
    He/she means that chances are, you would be ignored when you phone.

    I don't think so. If you have an enthusiast out to **** with someone they will usually win.


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    #355
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    doolox wrote: »
    The proposed measure was dropped because it was deemed to be impossible to prove if an infraction occurred.

    So the 1 m and 1.5 m rule remains only a recommendation and not compulsory on car drivers overtaking bikes.

    Similar cautions exist with handling non-expert witnesses with hidden agendas against their neighbours. Police and law enforcement generally are very cautious in using witness statements from people where there is enmity between the accused and the accuser.

    Too easy for the evidence to be thrown out of court by a jury.

    Wrong thread?


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    #356
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,183 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    VeryTerry wrote: »
    I don't think so. If you have an enthusiast out to **** with someone they will usually win.

    To prove that it is a short term let, you would have to phone and someone would have to go and check the property before the guest leaves, you feel you can convince someone from the council to do that?


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    #357
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Politicians passing the responsibility book? Never!

    AirBnB is the cause of the housing crisis? How convenient...


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    #358
    VeryTerry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭VeryTerry


    Dav010 wrote: »
    To prove that it is a short term let, you would have to phone and someone would have to go and check the property before the guest leaves, you feel you can convince someone from the council to do that?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-city-council-seeks-400-000-to-set-up-taskforce-to-crack-down-on-airbnbs-1.3708469%3fmode=amp

    They're going to spend 400,000 so I'd expect that somebody will listen and I'd imagine pissed off neighbors will be top of the pile.


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    #359
    LotharIngum
    Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭LotharIngum


    Dav010 wrote: »
    To prove that it is a short term let, you would have to phone and someone would have to go and check the property before the guest leaves, you feel you can convince someone from the council to do that?

    Might go something like this.

    Hello, your neighbor said you were letting to people on short term lets/

    - Oh he did did he? Which one? A few of them hate me. Wheres the proof?

    They have filmed people coming in with cases.

    - Oh, that was probably my friends. I usually let them have the apartment when they need a place to stay.

    Well your neighbor who hates you says you are renting it.

    - Prove it. Lets dance. What date should I turn up in court. Tell the neighbor to bring his secret recodings of my mates.


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    #360
    VeryTerry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭VeryTerry


    LotharIngum wrote: »
    Might go something like this.

    Hello, your neighbor said you were letting to people on short term lets/

    - Oh he did did he? Which one? A few of them hate me. Wheres the proof?

    They have filmed people coming in with cases.

    - Oh, that was probably my friends. I usually let them have the apartment when they need a place to stay.

    Well your neighbor who hates you says you are renting it.

    - Prove it. Lets dance. What date should I turn up in court. Tell the neighbor to bring his secret recodings of my mates.

    You know Airbnb have a website?


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    #361
    LotharIngum
    Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭LotharIngum


    VeryTerry wrote: »
    You know Airbnb have a website?


    You haven't been keeping up at all have you?


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