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From today (22 Dec), unaccompanied learner drivers can have their cars taken off them

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    #92
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I would also disagree with this. I passed my test first time, and did so because I spent many a late night driving around on my own, getting used to the car, and becoming familiar and comfortable with it. Would never have been able to with someone in the passenger seat lecturing to me.

    .

    How did you know what you were doing right and wrong? All that means is that you practiced all the mistakes you made over and again until,they became permanent bad driving habits.


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    #93
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    swarlb wrote: »
    Jeez... ye think you were talking about something pre historic.. Some cars in 1978 had better suspension and braking systems than cars today. A McLaren F1 has no ABS or servo for example yet has brakes capable of slowing it from 200+ mph. 'solid steel' steering wheels ???
    The biggest difference between cars than and now is tyre size. For example a car with 135x13 size in the 70's, would probably have something like 185/60x15 now, giving far better grip regardless of anything else. The front suspension on a 1978 Golf is not much different to the front suspension on a 2018 Golf, the rear suspension on a 1973 Lancia Beta is practically identical to the rear suspension on a 2004 Alfa GTA.
    If you are unable to control a car properly, while certain aspects of the cars design may help you (ABS a prime example) they are of little use if you lose control due to inexperience. Airbags are only useful obviously if you crash, which you are less likely to do if you are in control.
    The biggest problem with learner and inexperienced drivers (usually male) is ego, and somehow thinking that they are a better driver than anyone else on the road.

    Just as well McLaren f1s and lancia betas were the cars of choice of all novice drivers so and not clapped out cortinas or starlets and micras, so everyone is safe as houses.


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    #94
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Disregard for motoring legislation has been culturally acceptable in Ireland for decades. It is slowly changing and we have to adapt. Road deaths and injuries destroy families. Driving alone, before you're proven to have attained the minimum standard, is a blatant hazard to other road users and literally putting their lives at risk. They have no right to do that to me and others.

    Waiting lists, getting to work, public transport etc are also important issues. However, they can't be used as a concession to breaking the law. More enforcement of existing legislation is also needed.


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    #95
    mikemac2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭mikemac2


    Patww79 wrote: »
    Younger people are different now anyway and need to be policed harder.

    Plenty on the roads who never sat a theory test, a lesson and grew up in an era when drink driving was acceptable

    And every generation judges the one that follows.


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    #96
    martyc5674
    Registered Users Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭martyc5674


    Patww79 wrote: »
    They never enforced it back in the day which was happy days, but hopefully they do now though. Younger people are different now anyway and need to be policed harder.

    I think kids these days have way more cop on though than we did in our teens/early twenties, they are certainly better informed.
    The roads are busier now of course unfortunately, as a nation we have become too reliant on the car. I grew up in rural Ireland and before having a car I cycled to school and college.. about 6 and 8 miles respectively and nothing was thought of it. Getting a car on the road was almost seen as a “coming of age” which is a real pity I think.

    I welcome the legislation but I think way more needs to be done.
    The rules of the road need to be taught in schools and we need to promote and facilitate alternative transport such as cycling/walking/public transport.
    Marty.


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    #97
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    pablo128 wrote: »
    You cannot do a driving test in Ireland without having completed at least 12 driving lessons of an hour each. There are different modules as part of it, including night time driving. Your instructor must sign off each module. You must have held a learner permit for at least 6 months before you can sit a test in Ireland too.

    It has been this way for at least 6 years now.

    Thanks for the that and I am glad to hear that at least they need lessons now .Meantime though they can drive around with any random person who holds a full licence ? Personally I think no one at all should be on the road without a qualified instructor until they are seen fit to hold a full licence


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    #98
    kerrylad1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 610 ✭✭✭kerrylad1


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Thanks for the that and I am glad to hear that at least they need lessons now .Meantime though they can drive around with any random person who holds a full licence ? Personally I think no one at all should be on the road without a qualified instructor until they are seen fit to hold a full licence
    How did you learn to drive.When you had a learner's permit,did you have a instructor on call 24/7.So you never had to ask your parents/siblings, to accompany you on a journey?


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    #99
    martyc5674
    Registered Users Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭martyc5674


    kerrylad1 wrote: »
    How did you learn to drive.When you had a learner's permit,did you have a instructor on call 24/7.So you never had to ask your parents/siblings, to accompany you on a journey?

    I think your missing the point... the poster gave their opinion(possibly based on hindsight from their own experiences).

    I’d agree with them, and I couldn’t get on the road fast enough when I was younger... I rarely had an experienced driver with me, never had L plates etc. that doesn’t mean I believe it was right, it suited me cos I didn’t care about anything other than “having a car under my ar%e”

    Marty.


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    #100
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    kerrylad1 wrote: »
    How did you learn to drive.When you had a learner's permit,did you have a instructor on call 24/7.So you never had to ask your parents/siblings, to accompany you on a journey?

    I learned in Germany . Under no circumstances can anyone drive without a full licence .I did my lessons in a dual controlled car with a qualified instructor until he said I was ready to do my test ,.As it is in other EU countries and they all mange just fine .,
    No , I never drove without a full licence with parents /siblings or anyone else at all , it was against the law, and in Germany the laws are enforced .


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    #101
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    martyc5674 wrote: »
    I think kids these days have way more cop on though than we did in our teens/early twenties, they are certainly better informed.
    The roads are busier now of course unfortunately, as a nation we have become too reliant on the car. I grew up in rural Ireland and before having a car I cycled to school and college.. about 6 and 8 miles respectively and nothing was thought of it. Getting a car on the road was almost seen as a “coming of age” which is a real pity I think.

    I welcome the legislation but I think way more needs to be done.
    The rules of the road need to be taught in schools and we need to promote and facilitate alternative transport such as cycling/walking/public transport.
    Marty.

    I see them as just plain badder in general and it translates everywhere, including the roads.


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    #102
    kerrylad1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 610 ✭✭✭kerrylad1


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    I learned in Germany . Under no circumstances can anyone drive without a full licence .I did my lessons in a dual controlled car with a qualified instructor until he said I was ready to do my test ,.As it is in other EU countries and they all mange just fine .,
    No , I never drove without a full licence with parents /siblings or anyone else at all , it was against the law
    I (believe) you.


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    #103
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    kerrylad1 wrote: »
    I (believe) you.

    Believe what you like !! It matters not a jot to me but it was so and so I learned as did the rest of the people in Germany ,. Is it so hard to grasp for you ? Bless


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    #104
    kerrylad1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 610 ✭✭✭kerrylad1


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Believe what you like !! It matters not a jot to me but it was so and so I learned as did the rest of the people in Germany ,. Is it so hard to grasp for you ? Bless
    I said I (believe) you.


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    #105
    martyc5674
    Registered Users Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭martyc5674


    Patww79 wrote: »
    I see them as just plain badder in general and it translates everywhere, including the roads.

    The roads have gotten worse for sure... in that poor behaviors are spilling onto the roads, I don’t think it’s necessarily the younger generation (I’m talking about early 20s here). I see a lot of people running red lights in particular when walking my kids to school and the majority of the time they are closer to my own age I’m afraid to say. And I think this behaviour is down to poor education, the roads are shared amongst users but a lot of drivers feel they have a greater right to be there than anyone else.
    Marty.


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    #106
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,543 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    martyc5674 wrote: »
    And I think this behaviour is down to poor education, the roads are shared amongst users but a lot of drivers feel they have a greater right to be there than anyone else.

    You're right about the self-entitled view of many motorists, but I don't think the root cause is poor education. It is down to poor or negligible enforcement.

    Every driver on the road knows that you have to stop at a red light. But with no significant fear of enforcement, there are one or two or three drivers who push through on the red at every change of lights.

    It's the same reason that the majority of motorists break speed limits.


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    #107
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    You're right about the self-entitled view of many motorists, but I don't think the root cause is poor education. It is down to poor or negligible enforcement.

    Every driver on the road knows that you have to stop at a red light. But with no significant fear of enforcement, there are one or two or three drivers who push through on the red at every change of lights.

    It's the same reason that the majority of motorists break speed limits.

    Yes absolutely , rules made and never enforced is a major issue here in Ireland . Though I think poor driver education is also a factor


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    #108
    martyc5674
    Registered Users Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭martyc5674


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Yes absolutely , rules made and never enforced is a major issue here in Ireland . Though I think poor driver education is also a factor

    Yeah I agree that’s a huge part of the problem. The consequence of hitting someone doesn’t seem to register either.
    Whatever about the fines/losing license etc... they don’t seem to understand the devastation they can cause to lives/families.
    That needs to be drilled home as well.
    Marty.


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    #109
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    I learned in Germany . Under no circumstances can anyone drive without a full licence .I did my lessons in a dual controlled car with a qualified instructor until he said I was ready to do my test ,.As it is in other EU countries and they all mange just fine .,
    No , I never drove without a full licence with parents /siblings or anyone else at all , it was against the law, and in Germany the laws are enforced .

    Enforced lessons, even the 12 in Ireland are a total waste of money for many never mind what ever sort of crazy system you would like forcing everyone to only drive with an instructor until they pass their test.

    I could drive when I was in primary school. The minute I turned 16 I was driving tractors on the road and the minute I turned 17 I was insured on the car and driving everyday alone most of the time (I didn’t put up L plates either). I immediately booked the test but had to wait about 6 months or so. I did two driving lessons before the test, at the end of the first lesson the instructer said I could obviously drive no problem so a few bits on checking mirrors to practice and we will have one more lesson/mock test before I sit the real one was all I’d need. Did the second lessson and absolute pi**sed through test no bother at all.

    What on earth was I going to gain from wasting time and money on 12 lessons never mind being forced to go around with an instructor for all my driving practice. It’s a load of nonsense. I have at least heard from one or two recent learner drivers that some driving instructors will sign off on a few lessons at a time for people who can obviously drive so they don’t actually have to do the 12 or incur the wasted cost of doing so.


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    #110
    Pretzill
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭Pretzill


    I got my licence recently - I started learning 7 months ago and never drove unaccompanied, took the 12 lessons and no more. My first driving on my own was a packed town, looking for parking!

    I did only 12 lessons but I drove almost everyday in those months - on a variety of roads and weather conditions and at night. I think this is key to any learners driving training. I'm still learning everyday and I'm sure you'll all agree that everyday is a different experience on the road.


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    #111
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    Jackson Young Sandpaper wrote: »
    Enforced lessons, even the 12 in Ireland are a total waste of money for many never mind what ever sort of crazy system you would like forcing everyone to only drive with an instructor until they pass their test.

    I could drive when I was in primary school. The minute I turned 16 I was driving tractors on the road and the minute I turned 17 I was insured on the car and driving everyday alone most of the time (I didn’t put up L plates either). I immediately booked the test but had to wait about 6 months or so. I did two driving lessons before the test, at the end of the first lesson the instructer said I could obviously drive no problem so a few bits on checking mirrors to practice and we will have one more lesson/mock test before I sit the real one was all I’d need. Did the second lessson and absolute pi**sed through test no bother at all.

    What on earth was I going to gain from wasting time and money on 12 lessons never mind being forced to go around with an instructor for all my driving practice. It’s a load of nonsense. I have at least heard from one or two recent learner drivers that some driving instructors will sign off on a few lessons at a time for people who can obviously drive so they don’t actually have to do the 12 or incur the wasted cost of doing so.

    Well that's grand so. We'll send every new driver out on the family tractor to drive up and down rural roads before they begin driving the family car.:rolleyes:

    You realise the vast majority of new drivers don't have that option? Sure I used to buy cars off the tinkers when I was 14 and wh0re around housing estates. That's how I learned to drive. Maybe everyone should do as I did?


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    #112
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    Jackson Young Sandpaper wrote: »
    Enforced lessons, even the 12 in Ireland are a total waste of money for many never mind what ever sort of crazy system you would like forcing everyone to only drive with an instructor until they pass their test.

    I could drive when I was in primary school. The minute I turned 16 I was driving tractors on the road and the minute I turned 17 I was insured on the car and driving everyday alone most of the time (I didn’t put up L plates either). I immediately booked the test but had to wait about 6 months or so. I did two driving lessons before the test, at the end of the first lesson the instructer said I could obviously drive no problem so a few bits on checking mirrors to practice and we will have one more lesson/mock test before I sit the real one was all I’d need. Did the second lessson and absolute pi**sed through test no bother at all.

    What on earth was I going to gain from wasting time and money on 12 lessons never mind being forced to go around with an instructor for all my driving practice. It’s a load of nonsense. I have at least heard from one or two recent learner drivers that some driving instructors will sign off on a few lessons at a time for people who can obviously drive so they don’t actually have to do the 12 or incur the wasted cost of doing so.

    Oddly enough the rest of the EU would disagree with you . As I do
    And the " crazy " system is in fact the system in all EU countries


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    #113
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    looksee wrote: »
    Driving then was completely different from driving on modern roads. Very little traffic, minimal road markings, relatively limited speed and road surfaces that were not conducive to fast driving. Car control and experience was gained without significant pressure. Cars were less powerful, less reliable, less safe and less complicated - and until the Great Trade In, mostly held together with baling twine. It was a time when you could just about get away with the system as it was.
    Very much so. And it was like that until relatively recently. Back in the 80's(even well into the 90's) traffic was much lower, beyond a few dual carriageways roads were narrower and most cars struggled much above 70 mph in old money. Set against that were crappier brakes and bugger all safety features. Enforcement was minimal.

    When I think back on how I learned to drive it boggles my mind. Basically my dad gave me the basics in a local supermarket car park over a few weekends and then when we'd go fishing of a weekend afterwards he'd have me drive much of the way home on country roads, changing seats when we got close to Dublin. It was an automatic rare here at the time so all I had to do was steer pretty much. If I told ye the age I was when this kicked off... Let's just say if it were today and we had been stopped by the Guards it might make a small headline on the RTE website. He'd have been arrested and I might have ended up in care. :D He himself had learned to drive in the 1930's by driving his uncle's truck in the school holidays for pocket money, when he was 14. :eek:

    Insane as it was though, no way could it be repeated today, law or not. On those trips back home I might have encountered a dozen or so cars, today on the same road it would more like hundreds and speeds would be higher. 60 Kph was pretty much it, doing that today and I'd have had a cortege of angry horns beeping behind me.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #114
    Sheepdish1
    Registered Users Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Sheepdish1


    martyc5674 wrote: »
    The roads have gotten worse for sure... in that poor behaviors are spilling onto the roads, I don’t think it’s necessarily the younger generation (I’m talking about early 20s here). I see a lot of people running red lights in particular when walking my kids to school and the majority of the time they are closer to my own age I’m afraid to say. And I think this behaviour is down to poor education, the roads are shared amongst users but a lot of drivers feel they have a greater right to be there than anyone else.
    Marty.

    I see this all the time, people flying through crossings and breaking lights and its mainly due to phones in my opinion.

    It is frightening the amount of people completely distracted by their phones and that distraction wasn't there 20 years ago, even when they are at lights they can't sit there without looking at their phones, this is happening during rush hour traffic with small kids crossing.

    But I actually find it all generations, if you stand at bus stops every second or third driver is at their phone, have seen building trucks driving and texting :eek:

    One guy I saw last year, maybe in his 30's, was on facebook the entire time on an extremely busy dual carraige way during rush hour traffic that was moving fast enough but heavy. I was shocked when I saw he had a newborn size baby seat in the back of the car :eek::eek:

    I think its even more of a risk than drink driving as the volumes of people texting and driving is far higher and it is occurring at more dangerous times, ie kids coming to and from school or during day time when roads are busier.

    I would love to see automatic ban for it


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    #115
    lalababa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭lalababa


    Lookit as the hurlers say.. there is almost no enforcement of traffic laws. AFAIK the highway patrol section of the gaurds were more or less disbanded during the bust and are only now resurfacing. We can have a million f**king laws and a million out of touch judges but without enforcement by traffic police and enforcement by judges we are pissing in the wind. Still we must be doing something right as fatalities are down. I wonder are crashes with injuries down though??
    The smartphones are taking over though and are scary.


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    #116
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,297 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Jackson Young Sandpaper wrote: »
    Enforced lessons, even the 12 in Ireland are a total waste of money for many never mind what ever sort of crazy system you would like forcing everyone to only drive with an instructor until they pass their test.

    I could drive when I was in primary school. The minute I turned 16 I was driving tractors on the road and the minute I turned 17 I was insured on the car and driving everyday alone most of the time (I didn’t put up L plates either). I immediately booked the test but had to wait about 6 months or so. I did two driving lessons before the test, at the end of the first lesson the instructer said I could obviously drive no problem so a few bits on checking mirrors to practice and we will have one more lesson/mock test before I sit the real one was all I’d need. Did the second lessson and absolute pi**sed through test no bother at all.

    What on earth was I going to gain from wasting time and money on 12 lessons never mind being forced to go around with an instructor for all my driving practice. It’s a load of nonsense. I have at least heard from one or two recent learner drivers that some driving instructors will sign off on a few lessons at a time for people who can obviously drive so they don’t actually have to do the 12 or incur the wasted cost of doing so.

    Just because you were instantly a great driver doesn’t mean everyone is, we can’t legislate for individuals.
    It’s ridiculous that people can buy a tonne of metal and drive around straight away. Just because we did it in the past doesn’t mean it should always be.
    People wouldn’t accept unqualified people in other potentially lethal situations.


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    #117
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,543 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Jackson Young Sandpaper wrote: »
    I have at least heard from one or two recent learner drivers that some driving instructors will sign off on a few lessons at a time for people
    Is it any wonder we have 3 or 4 people killed on the road each week?


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    #118
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,651 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    The waiting time for the test is very evidently excessive but it is what it is. Until a learner driver has proven their ability they shouldn't drive alone. The shortcomings of other drivers aren't relevant to this in any way. Driving is a a privilege to be earned, and not a right.


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    #119
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Is it any wonder we have 3 or 4 people killed on the road each week?

    What good are lessons when the person is obviously well able to drive? What is the instructor going to teach them from a learning to drive perspective? It’s road experience that improves people’s ability to drive and that comes with time driving not a few lessons.

    The driving test should be the judgment of being able to drive if you can pass it with no lessons then you are able to drive. Some people will need a load of lessons others very few but there should be no compulsory number.


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    #120
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,543 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Jackson Young Sandpaper wrote: »
    What good are lessons when the person is obviously well able to drive? What is the instructor going to teach them from a learning to drive perspective? It’s road experience that improves people’s ability to drive and that comes with time driving not a few lessons.
    IF this statement were true, older people who are experienced drivers would all be great drivers. This isn't the case. It's not experience that improves ability. In fact, with 'experience' most drivers learn to ignore little things like speed limits, stopping at yellow boxes, stopping at amber when safe etc.

    People need lessons to learn how to drive safely.
    Jackson Young Sandpaper wrote: »
    The driving test should be the judgment of being able to drive if you can pass it with no lessons then you are able to drive. Some people will need a load of lessons others very few but there should be no compulsory number.

    If we didn't have 3 or 4 people being killed on the road each week, you might have a point here.


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    #121
    jmreire
    Registered Users Posts: 8,338 ✭✭✭jmreire


    cml387 wrote: »
    Yes, that is true.
    Yet the introduction of the NCT to at least try to make cars safer on our roads is decried by many still as a "money making racket".

    The main force behind safer car's was after Ralph Naders book was published in America, and then the manufacturers copied quite a lot of the ideas from Volvo. Then cars which claimed to be safer, started to sell in greater numbers, so it became market driven...no one wanted to either drive or be a passenger in a "Dangerous" car., Since then, there have been remarkable imrovements in car safety design, and this research is ongoing.
    As for the NCT, as it is in this point in time, it show's a mechanical "Snapshot" of the car on the day of the test. Its quite possible that you could get a "Pass" today on your car, yet it would fail next week. Maybe thats why car insurers al ways look for a valid NCT cert, but choose to ignore it when it suits them. I would be prepared to pay more for a technicallay more advanced test, if the insurers were forced to accept it too, instead of using age as a reason to refuse insurance. Regardless of age, if the car has a valid NCT ( as in the case of other Countries ) it should be insurable here in Ireland.( I'm well aware that you can get insurance on an older car, if you have been the owner for several years, but say I want to buy an older car, it can be difficult to insure it, regardless of NCT )


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