From today (22 Dec), unaccompanied learner drivers can have their cars taken off them

jmreire

cml387 wrote: »

Road deaths in ireland in 1978 - 628
Road deaths in ireland in 2017 - 158

And every piece of driving legislation introduced between those years has been met with howls of outrage.

When quoting these figures, you have to bear in mind that vehicles on the road back then bore little or no relation to what's on the road now. Bad brakes, bad steering, bad suspensions, little or no safety features, solid steel steering wheels, no air bags, in a frontal impact, it was possible for the engine and gearbox to be pushed back into the car itself, bad tyres..and match all of this to bad roads,bad lighting etc. The list is pretty exhaustive. Back in the 70's Ralph Nader wrote a book called " Unsafe at any speed". It was all about the car manufacturing industry. Back then, Volvo was reckoned to be the safest car on the road..So a lot of these deaths back then would have been due to the vehicle design, no matter what kind of Licence you held ( or in some cases) no licence.

jmreire

Emmersonn wrote: »

God you must be one of the few who got their licence in this way to be still alive and you must still have a great memory. :rolleyes:

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

OldMrBrennan83

salmocab wrote: »

That doesn’t even take into account how many more cars are on the road now.

People's lives can't be treated only as complete statistics though. If you put 1000 people in a room and one dies, it doesn't mean it's ok if you put 10000 in another room and 10 die.

OldMrBrennan83

jmreire wrote: »

When quoting these figures, you have to bear in mind that vehicles on the road back then bore little or no relation to what's on the road now. Bad brakes, bad steering, bad suspensions, little or no safety features, solid steel steering wheels, no air bags, in a frontal impact, it was possible for the engine and gearbox to be pushed back into the car itself, bad tyres..and match all of this to bad roads,bad lighting etc. The list is pretty exhaustive. Back in the 70's Ralph Nader wrote a book called " Unsafe at any speed". It was all about the car manufacturing industry. Back then, Volvo was reckoned to be the safest car on the road..So a lot of these deaths back then would have been due to the vehicle design, no matter what kind of Licence you held ( or in some cases) no licence.

If you look at the Garda Twitter page there's still lots and lots of untested cars and unlicensed drivers out there.

cml387

jmreire wrote: »

When quoting these figures, you have to bear in mind that vehicles on the road back then bore little or no relation to what's on the road now. Bad brakes, bad steering, bad suspensions, little or no safety features, solid steel steering wheels, no air bags, in a frontal impact, it was possible for the engine and gearbox to be pushed back into the car itself, bad tyres..and match all of this to bad roads,bad lighting etc. The list is pretty exhaustive. Back in the 70's Ralph Nader wrote a book called " Unsafe at any speed". It was all about the car manufacturing industry. Back then, Volvo was reckoned to be the safest car on the road..So a lot of these deaths back then would have been due to the vehicle design, no matter what kind of Licence you held ( or in some cases) no licence.

Yes, that is true.
Yet the introduction of the NCT to at least try to make cars safer on our roads is decried by many still as a "money making racket".

matrim

Ninthlife wrote: »

I hope they test all those people who got a full license just by applying years ago and never had a single lesson or test in their life

The amnesty was in 1979 and it is estimated that around 45,000 people got it. That would mean that the minimum age of someone who got it would be 56 and it's likely that there is a decent amount of that 45,000 may no longer be on the road. The total number of learners in 2016 was 249,657 and the total number of all licenses was 2,820,528. So at a max the number of people who got the amnesty is about 1/6 the number of learners and at most 1.5% of the all drivers.

corks finest

iamwhoiam wrote: »

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ross should be ashamed of himself, every single thing he's done is a kick in the stones to people living outside public transport areas.
Completely out of touch with rural Ireland. How the hell are people who start work after school meant to get to work. Mammy and Daddy drive them for 3yrs. Absolutely nuts legislation.
Drop the licence age to 15 so at least they can become independent at 18.

Like Germany do your lessons and get your full licence . Before that no one should be on the road. Why would that take anyone three years ?

Same in all EU countries

iamwhoiam

corks finest wrote: »

Same in all EU countries

As it should be . But here we get Healy Rea mouthing off thatprovisional licence holders should be allowed on our roads ? Who in their right mind would object to the new legislation ?

s7ryf3925pivug

https://www.google.com/amp/www.thejournal.ie/learner-drivers-unaccompanied-3893515-Mar2018/%3famp=1

Statistically learner drivers are safer than non-learners. They're more likely to stall at a traffic light or take ages to join a roundabout than to put you in harm's way. This measure is not about improving safety, just about getting approval from the self-righteous.

OldMrBrennan83

Emmet Squeaking Warden wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/www.thejournal.ie/learner-drivers-unaccompanied-3893515-Mar2018/%3famp=1

Statistically learner drivers are safer than non-learners. They're more likely to stall at a traffic light or take ages to join a roundabout than to put you in harm's way. This measure is not about improving safety, just about getting approval from the self-righteous.

You can't drive unaccompanied. End of.

Cash_Q

Sorry if this has been clarified elsewhere in the thread but I don't have time to read 6 pages; all reports I'm reading say that the owner of a car who allows a provisional driver to use their car faces the penalties. What if a provisional driver owns their own car, I presume they face the same penalties? It's really not been stated clearly anywhere I can find

Esel

Basically, if you want to drive unaccompanied on a learner permit, get a motorcycle. Needing a car to get to work is no excuse.

Tazzimus

highdef wrote: »

I for one never drove on my own without a qualified driver when on my provisional licence and that was 18 years ago. Only had my provisional licence for about twelve weeks as I applied for the test early on. Passed that and have been fully licensed since.

There's no excuse for those people who are provisionally licensed for years. If someone continues to fail their divers test time after time over a matter of years, then it should be a case that the person is simply unable to grasp the ability to drive properly. It's those people that are on provisional licences for those extended period of time that will hopefully get the full impact of the new laws applied to them.

The less unqualified divers on the road, the better.

I think you'll find that a lot of "fully qualified" drivers are as big a risk or bigger.

iamwhoiam

Tazzimus wrote: »

I think you'll find that a lot of "fully qualified" drivers are as big a risk or bigger.

So lets try to educate and teach learners then hope they don't become a danger . That is done by taking the German ( and others ) model and ensuring the learner learns from qualified teachers and not some 20 year old brother or any auld friend who happens to have a full licence

s7ryf3925pivug

Esel wrote: »

Basically, if you want to drive unaccompanied on a learner permit, get a motorcycle. Needing a car to get to work is no excuse.

What if you need to bring kids to school?

Tazzimus

iamwhoiam wrote: »

So lets try to educate and teach learners then hope they don't become a danger . That is done by taking the German ( and others ) model and ensuring the learner learns from qualified teachers and not some 20 year old brother or any auld friend who happens to have a full licence

I'd be in agreement.

I'd be interested to see how many people who have a full license a while now would get on if they had to redo their test. Especially the older demographic, judging by the displays of driving skill I see on my way to and from work.

I was well able to drive before I got my prov license, but FBD still made me do ten lessons before they'd insure me.
I grumbled at the time, but there was definite benefit there to learning from someone qualified.

iamwhoiam

Tazzimus wrote: »

I'd be in agreement.

I'd be interested to see how many people who have a full license a while now would get on if they had to redo their test. Especially the older demographic, judging by the displays of driving skill I see on my way to and from work.

I was well able to drive before I got my prov license, but FBD still made me do ten lessons before they'd insure me.
I grumbled at the time, but there was definite benefit there to learning from someone qualified.

I am one of the older demographic ! I learned my skills and did my test in Germany . I have to say that driving in Dublin the ones I would consider poor road users are young women and men in their forties . Thats is not saying every one of that age group but often enough for me to notice .

corks finest

Emmet Squeaking Warden wrote: »

Esel wrote: »

Basically, if you want to drive unaccompanied on a learner permit, get a motorcycle. Needing a car to get to work is no excuse.

What if you need to bring kids to school?

No bloody excuses, anyone with kids school age obviously has been driving for years ( without being qualified,end of)

Tazzimus

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I am one of the older demographic ! I learned my skills and did my test in Germany . I have to say that driving in Dublin the ones I would consider poor road users are young women and men in their forties . Thats is not saying every one of that age group but often enough for me to notice .

Forties is older to me as I'm in my thirties :P
Forties and fifties for men and unfortunately quite a lot of women of all age groups are what I notice.

Of course not all are, just a high concentration of those groups on the M50 and surrounding areas. And obviously the bad drivers tend to be remembered more than the good.

pablo128

iamwhoiam wrote: »

So lets try to educate and teach learners then hope they don't become a danger . That is done by taking the German ( and others ) model and ensuring the learner learns from qualified teachers and not some 20 year old brother or any auld friend who happens to have a full licence

You cannot do a driving test in Ireland without having completed at least 12 driving lessons of an hour each. There are different modules as part of it, including night time driving. Your instructor must sign off each module. You must have held a learner permit for at least 6 months before you can sit a test in Ireland too.

It has been this way for at least 6 years now.

salmocab

Emmet Squeaking Warden wrote: »

What if you need to bring kids to school?

Get walking shoes or use a bus. The law can’t take into account peoples circumstances. It’s preposterous that we allow people to drive who haven’t shown they are competent.

Rubberchikken

its a mystery to me why these laws arent all brought in at the same time.
when it was first mooted that a learner driver had to be accompanied by a fully licenced driver the whiners were out on force. the decision seemed to be taken by the gardai to leave well enough alone so these drivers sailed on.
now suddenly its being done. how many more crap drivers are on our roads because mammy/daddy let tjeir learner son or daughter off out with their provisional licence because they were to busy /lazy to accompany them.

kerrylad1

R.O.R wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1221/1018580-learner-drivers/

Few different news reports, but new laws came in to place this morning allowing the Gardai to impound cars where the driver doesn't hold a full licence and isn't accompanied by a relevant qualified driver.

Also allows for fines against the owner of the vehicle if they allow an unaccompanied learner to drive the car.

What happens if a youngster grabs the keys and goes off for a spin,like I did back in the mid 80,s.My parents didn't say it was OK.What's the outcome there?

I would also disagree with this. I passed my test first time, and did so because I spent many a late night driving around on my own, getting used to the car, and becoming familiar and comfortable with it. Would never have been able to with someone in the passenger seat lecturing to me.

Also did makey uppey 'lessons' with my brother, and a friend, on several separate occassions. They were completely useless compared to the actual lessons I did with an approved instructor (where i learned enormous amounts in a short time) which makes me question why we're insisting than an unqualified trainer be designated a babysitting position in these learner driver's cars?


On top of that, what is the purpose of having a full license holder in the passenger seat? What's the theory behind it? Unless your car is dual-control, the passenger can be of no practical assistance. If you stall on a hill they're only going to add to the pressure.

I'd also be very curious in regards to how many crashes are caused by Learner drivers? Without trying to be biased, I find it's the Pensioner drivers that cause me the most trouble on the roads.

I don't get where all this is coming from or who it really benefits. Learner drivers are probably the safest overall group on the road? I'd be of the opinion it's the morons pulling handbrake turns and donuts on the roads that are casting the negative image and fcuking it up for everyone else that's starting out.

Glad I have my license. I passed my test only about 5 years ago, and even in that time it's become such a nonsense hassle.

malinheader

Rubberchikken wrote: »

its a mystery to me why these laws arent all brought in at the same time.
when it was first mooted that a learner driver had to be accompanied by a fully licenced driver the whiners were out on force. the decision seemed to be taken by the gardai to leave well enough alone so these drivers sailed on.
now suddenly its being done. how many more crap drivers are on our roads because mammy/daddy let tjeir learner son or daughter off out with their provisional licence because they were to busy /lazy to accompany them.

So mammy and daddy were working and there son/Daughter had a job 6 or 7 mile away, rural so no public transport. Lessons all done and then told could be up to 16 weeks for the test. By the way licence being changed from provisional to full is not going to make a bit difference if your a crap driver.

P_1

Enforcing this law while theres still a massive waiting list for tests is idiotic.

Where are the resources for bringing in more testing centers and more testers?

malinheader

Also big difference in rural Ireland where in some places there is no public transport.

Sheepdish1

Imo part of the problem is the cost of test. €85 for the small amount of time an instructor is testing is far too much in my opinion. How can it be justified to charge €85?

Even this compared to Nct test is expensive.....Nct is €55....it takes longer and equipment used to check you car compared to €85 for a 20 minute drive. In fact many people need to hire a car so another €100 onto that.

Personally I Would like to see mobile devices usage to have severe penalties. The amount of car / lorry/ bus drivers I see texting and driving is shocking.

It is worse than drink driving as they may as well be driving with a blindfold on. It should be automatic ban . I don’t know why minister for transport isn’t enforcing this

swarlb

jmreire wrote: »

When quoting these figures, you have to bear in mind that vehicles on the road back then bore little or no relation to what's on the road now. Bad brakes, bad steering, bad suspensions, little or no safety features, solid steel steering wheels, no air bags, in a frontal impact, it was possible for the engine and gearbox to be pushed back into the car itself, bad tyres..and match all of this to bad roads,bad lighting etc. The list is pretty exhaustive. Back in the 70's Ralph Nader wrote a book called " Unsafe at any speed". It was all about the car manufacturing industry. Back then, Volvo was reckoned to be the safest car on the road..So a lot of these deaths back then would have been due to the vehicle design, no matter what kind of Licence you held ( or in some cases) no licence.

Jeez... ye think you were talking about something pre historic.. Some cars in 1978 had better suspension and braking systems than cars today. A McLaren F1 has no ABS or servo for example yet has brakes capable of slowing it from 200+ mph. 'solid steel' steering wheels ???
The biggest difference between cars than and now is tyre size. For example a car with 135x13 size in the 70's, would probably have something like 185/60x15 now, giving far better grip regardless of anything else. The front suspension on a 1978 Golf is not much different to the front suspension on a 2018 Golf, the rear suspension on a 1973 Lancia Beta is practically identical to the rear suspension on a 2004 Alfa GTA.
If you are unable to control a car properly, while certain aspects of the cars design may help you (ABS a prime example) they are of little use if you lose control due to inexperience. Airbags are only useful obviously if you crash, which you are less likely to do if you are in control.
The biggest problem with learner and inexperienced drivers (usually male) is ego, and somehow thinking that they are a better driver than anyone else on the road.

Guy:Incognito

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ross should be ashamed of himself, every single thing he's done is a kick in the stones to people living outside public transport areas.
Completely out of touch with rural Ireland. How the hell are people who start work after school meant to get to work. Mammy and Daddy drive them for 3yrs. Absolutely nuts legislation.
Drop the licence age to 15 so at least they can become independent at 18.

Rural Ireland being alone in relation to rural parts of every other country in the world yeah? Others seem to manage ok.