From today (22 Dec), unaccompanied learner drivers can have their cars taken off them

bladespin

Maybe a good thing but considering the worst driving I see daily is from obiously non learners I don't think it'll help much.

iamwhoiam

bladespin wrote: »

Maybe a good thing but considering the worst driving I see daily is from obiously non learners I don't think it'll help much.

Maybe because they were taught by any Tom Dick or Harry ?

OldMrBrennan83

bladespin wrote: »

Maybe a good thing but considering the worst driving I see daily is from obiously non learners I don't think it'll help much.

But it will still help if enforced, because:

If you've 1,000,000* useless fully licenced drivers and 5,000* useless unaccompanied learner drivers then that's 1,005,000* total useless drivers. So if you get rid of the 5,000* then it's obviously less and then tackle the bigger number.

Just because something isn't the highest factor doesn't mean you ignore it.


*numbers totally made up

salmocab

bladespin wrote: »

Maybe a good thing but considering the worst driving I see daily is from obiously non learners I don't think it'll help much.

We’ll surely all these bad drivers you see were once learners, better driving should filter through in time as standards increase.

kilianmanning

kilianmanning wrote: »

I had my full licence at 17 & 7 months, always drove around unaccompanied. (Wasn't as strict in 2012 so I risked it). I know a lot of people that could accompany learner drivers that shouldn't be allowed near a steering wheel themselves, so I completely disagree with this idiot Irish law. As said by previous posters it should be done like other countries where one isn't let out on the road until they have a licence. No need for any enforcement then! Not likely that it will be enforced anyway. :pac:

How are you supposed to lean about driving on the road if you can’t drive on it as a learner?

Charles Babbage

Dravokivich wrote: »

Its only a requirment for someone with a learners permit. Doesn't mean that it must be taken off when driven by someone who isn't on a learners permit.

However, bringing in law changes without addressing this issue shows that they are not serious.

corks finest

Jackson Young Sandpaper wrote: »

kilianmanning wrote: »

I had my full licence at 17 & 7 months, always drove around unaccompanied. (Wasn't as strict in 2012 so I risked it). I know a lot of people that could accompany learner drivers that shouldn't be allowed near a steering wheel themselves, so I completely disagree with this idiot Irish law. As said by previous posters it should be done like other countries where one isn't let out on the road until they have a licence. No need for any enforcement then! Not likely that it will be enforced anyway. :pac:

How are you supposed to lean about driving on the road if you can’t drive on it as a learner?

With a qualified driver at your side,,,,no full license no drive on your own,simples

dr.fuzzenstein

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I did my driver learning in Germany. Absolutely no one is allowed drive alone until the test is passed
First a theory test in a licenced driving school then at least 10 ( not quite sure on number ) lesson in dual controlled driving school car . Then the teacher can recommend you do the test when he feels you are ready . That could be more than 10 or even up to 20 .
Lessons are regulated with a certain amount in the dark , on motorway , in rush hour traffic etc
So it should be here to in my opinion

Got my license in Germany too. I used to (when this was the case) tell people over here "well, you write a letter and get a license in the post. You then ignore the regulation that you need to be acompanied and just drive around alone anyway. Maybe your parents, sister, uncle, dog, cat sit in with you and tell you how to "really" drive and nevermind that test, it's only sh*te anyway. You then fail your test and now you're officially allowed to drive unacompanied. Maybe in 5-10 years time you pass your test, or maybe there's an amnesty".
People at this stage look at me as if I had 10 heads and ask me if I've been drinking.

Anyways, +1000
I learnt my theory, and ONLY after you pass the theory test, are you allowed to drive in an official Fahrschule Auto with a properly qualified Fahrlehrer.
And you are ONLY allowed to drive like that.
Under no other circumstances, unless on private land, are you anyhow allowed behind the wheel of a car.
And people pass their driving test in their millions. Absolutely no problem, so any argument otherwise is horsesh*t.
And on average Germans are more considerate, less selfish drivers than the Irish, because here you would never cut a roundabout, block a junction, use the turning lane to go straight to skip traffic or dump your car any old how in the supermarket car park. (STVO, which is ROTR applies even there)
And you wouldn't event think about breaking a red light, not like the Irish "3-4 cars is grand" rule.
I spent 25 years in Ireland and for the first 6 months in Germany I would look out for the queue jumper, the red light breaker, the junction blocker, the roundabout overtaker and you know what? They never came.
In Germany you can, mostly, rely on people to obey the rules. In Ireland, you can, mostly, rely on people to ignore them.

doolox

You better not be doing that in South Dublin anymore. I was noticing a distinct tendency in my recent driving style to creep ever closer to actually running red lights. Like any bad habit I have had to cut back and to hell with any tailgater behind me urging me on with flashing lights or liberal use of the horn.........

Several times I have noticed Garda cars on the prowl looking for red light jumpers etc.. I haven't actually seen anyone caught yet for red light jumping or any other moving violation but it only a matter of time.

I would not have seen as many Gardai on the roads as I am seeing now at the moment.

I would guess that the new commissioner and the zealous roads minister have something to do with this increased presence of Gardai on the roads.

bladespin

salmocab wrote:

We’ll surely all these bad drivers you see were once learners, better driving should filter through in time as standards increase.

Absolutely, though I think a more radical approach would yeild better returns, the atypical bad driving I see is just lazy driving, bad habits built up over time; lane discipline, lack of signalling, lack of observation, a regular retest (drivers nct) would fix a lot.

mikeecho

Esel wrote: »

Can you still drive a Land Rover on a 'tractor' licence if it has a PTO?

You can, unless it's adapted / capable , of/to carry a passenger.

The exemptions to this new legislation are to motorbikes and to agricultural machinery not adapted or equipped to carry a second person.

salmocab

bladespin wrote: »

Absolutely, though I think a more radical approach would yeild better returns, the atypical bad driving I see is just lazy driving, bad habits built up over time; lane discipline, lack of signalling, lack of observation, a regular retest (drivers nct) would fix a lot.

Unfortunately we are were we are with qualified drivers, it’s how we deal with things that needs to change, rules enforcement needs an overhaul and just increasing points for an offense isn’t the way, we should be giving people the choice of points and fine or education for certain offenses. (Not for serial offenders). Speeding offenses should be based on % above the limit. Doing 40 In a 30 zone is way worse than 110 in a 100 zone.

mikeecho

mikeecho wrote: »

You can, unless it's adapted / capable , of/to carry a passenger.

The exemptions to this new legislation are to motorbikes and to agricultural machinery not adapted or equipped to carry a second person.

All modern tractors are equipped to carry a passenger though so the new legislation (is there new legislation I’ve heard nothing about it??) makes no sense in that regard as a 16 year old on a W license can drive any tractor on the road.

salmocab wrote: »

Unfortunately we are were we are with qualified drivers, it’s how we deal with things that needs to change, rules enforcement needs an overhaul and just increasing points for an offense isn’t the way, we should be giving people the choice of points and fine or education for certain offenses. (Not for serial offenders). Speeding offenses should be based on % above the limit. Doing 40 In a 30 zone is way worse than 110 in a 100 zone.

We should not have 30 zones so we could easily solve that issue....what a stupid slow speed to expect people to drive.

mikeecho

Jackson Young Sandpaper wrote: »

All modern tractors are equipped to carry a passenger though so the new legislation (is there new legislation I’ve heard nothing about it??) makes no sense in that regard as a 16 year old on a W license can drive any tractor on the road..

That's the point an Unaccompanied 16 yr old on a learners permit is no longer alowed to drive Unaccompanied a tractor that had room for a second person.

Jackson Young Sandpaper wrote: »

We should not have 30 zones so we could easily solve that issue....what a stupid slow speed to expect people to drive.

Wtf

mikeecho

mikeecho wrote: »

Wtf

WTF do we have any zone in the country here a person is expect to drive at 30kmh. It’s idiotic and serves no purpose but to appease the idiots that think it’s a good idea.

mikeecho

Jackson Young Sandpaper wrote: »

WTF do we have any zone in the country here a person is expect to drive at 30kmh. It’s idiotic and serves no purpose but to appease the idiots that think it’s a good idea.

& unfollow thread

mikeecho

mikeecho wrote: »

& unfollow thread

No loss

Amirani

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Got my license in Germany too. I used to (when this was the case) tell people over here "well, you write a letter and get a license in the post. You then ignore the regulation that you need to be acompanied and just drive around alone anyway. Maybe your parents, sister, uncle, dog, cat sit in with you and tell you how to "really" drive and nevermind that test, it's only sh*te anyway. You then fail your test and now you're officially allowed to drive unacompanied. Maybe in 5-10 years time you pass your test, or maybe there's an amnesty".
People at this stage look at me as if I had 10 heads and ask me if I've been drinking.

Anyways, +1000
I learnt my theory, and ONLY after you pass the theory test, are you allowed to drive in an official Fahrschule Auto with a properly qualified Fahrlehrer.
And you are ONLY allowed to drive like that.
Under no other circumstances, unless on private land, are you anyhow allowed behind the wheel of a car.
And people pass their driving test in their millions. Absolutely no problem, so any argument otherwise is horsesh*t.
And on average Germans are more considerate, less selfish drivers than the Irish, because here you would never cut a roundabout, block a junction, use the turning lane to go straight to skip traffic or dump your car any old how in the supermarket car park. (STVO, which is ROTR applies even there)
And you wouldn't event think about breaking a red light, not like the Irish "3-4 cars is grand" rule.
I spent 25 years in Ireland and for the first 6 months in Germany I would look out for the queue jumper, the red light breaker, the junction blocker, the roundabout overtaker and you know what? They never came.
In Germany you can, mostly, rely on people to obey the rules. In Ireland, you can, mostly, rely on people to ignore them.

That's all great, but:

Ireland has a lower rate of road fatalities per capita than Germany.

Ireland also has a lower rate of road fatalities per kilometres driven than Germany.

I agree that Irish drivers can be a bit more lackadaisical about certain rules than German drivers, but this extends to more than just driving. Same with pedestrians, cyclists and just about any rules based activity. Germans tend to follow rules/guidelines more rigidly.

Overall though, you've thrown out some anecdotal claims about the German system. The data though suggests that Irish roads are safer than German roads, with less road fatalities. I'm not sure you can dismiss out of hand that the Irish system is inferior.

salmocab

Jackson Young Sandpaper wrote: »

We should not have 30 zones so we could easily solve that issue....what a stupid slow speed to expect people to drive.

We absolutely do need 30 zones, housing estates with children running about, playing football or chasing should be 30.

OldMrBrennan83

Amirani wrote: »

That's all great, but:

Ireland has a lower rate of road fatalities per capita than Germany.

Ireland also has a lower rate of road fatalities per kilometres driven than Germany.

I agree that Irish drivers can be a bit more lackadaisical about certain rules than German drivers, but this extends to more than just driving. Same with pedestrians, cyclists and just about any rules based activity. Germans tend to follow rules/guidelines more rigidly.

Overall though, you've thrown out some anecdotal claims about the German system. The data though suggests that Irish roads are safer than German roads, with less road fatalities. I'm not sure you can dismiss out of hand that the Irish system is inferior.

But, Germany.

salmocab

salmocab wrote: »

We absolutely do need 30 zones, housing estates with children running about, playing football or chasing should be 30.

Kids shouldn’t be playing on the road.

salmocab

Jackson Young Sandpaper wrote: »

Kids shouldn’t be playing on the road.

Kids in estates all over the country do play on roads and run across them. We can’t pretend they don’t and speed through the estate assuming a 7 year old knows to look.

Henry Ford III

What is the purpose of L plates?

iamwhoiam

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Got my license in Germany too.

I learnt my theory, and ONLY after you pass the theory test, are you allowed to drive in an official Fahrschule Auto with a properly qualified Fahrlehrer.
And you are ONLY allowed to drive like that.
Under no other circumstances, unless on private land, are you anyhow allowed behind the wheel of a car.
And people pass their driving test in their millions. Absolutely no problem, so any argument otherwise is horsesh*t.
.

Thank you ,I got mocked earlier for daring to state the truth about a German licence system . I lived in Germany and the difference is the law is enforced there and so people in general abide by the law .Here often we do the opposite and try to find a way to break the law , we are culturally more inclined not to be law abiding .My theory is is came through the generations when we were opposed to a British rule . The biggest obstacle to any law here in Ireland is that it is not enforced, And law breaking often goes unpunished

Wibbs

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Thank you ,I got mocked earlier for daring to state the truth about a German licence system . I lived in Germany and the difference is the law is enforced there and so people in general abide by the law .Here often we do the opposite and try to find a way to break the law , we are culturally more inclined not to be law abiding .My theory is is came through the generations when we were opposed to a British rule . The biggest obstacle to any law here in Ireland is that it is not enforced, And law breaking often goes unpunished

Did you miss Am's post above?

Amirani wrote: »

That's all great, but:

Ireland has a lower rate of road fatalities per capita than Germany.

Ireland also has a lower rate of road fatalities per kilometres driven than Germany.

On pure hard facts and results, IE the bit that counts, Ireland's roads and drivers are safer than Germany's roads and drivers.

iamwhoiam

Wibbs wrote: »

Did you miss Am's post above?



On pure hard facts and results, IE the bit that counts, Ireland's roads and drivers are safer than Germany's roads and drivers.

Yes I read it ,I am really talking more about breaking rules of the road and running red lights , illegal parking , poor roundabout knowledge , lack of awareness of others etc . My guess is that smaller non fatal crashes is much higher here ? But definetly breaking of the rules is much higher here , you wouldnt see the brazeneness of drivers there or parking in disabled spots like here .

TCM

mikeecho wrote:

So not everyone got a free licence. It's time to move on.

It's time to park it.

dudara

Wibbs wrote: »

Did you miss Am's post above?
On pure hard facts and results, IE the bit that counts, Ireland's roads and drivers are safer than Germany's roads and drivers.

I think this argument is a little bit of a red herring though when it comes to the original point. The statistical difference is probably because we have an lower average overall traffic density or something like that. And to be very pedantic, we have less accidents, not that we are safer.

There’s no doubt in my mind that having a standardised and well-enforced driving education scheme is beneficial.

bladespin

Seth Wrong Giraffe wrote:

Kids shouldn’t be playing on the road.

Says who?

Kids have played on estate roads since estates had kids, it's a fact all who drive in estates have to deal with.

That said I disagree with the 30 zones around Dublin city, but having walked around the city a few times over the years, it seems the level of pedestrian competence is lower than that of most children.

Dravokivich

salmocab wrote: »

We absolutely do need 30 zones, housing estates with children running about, playing football or chasing should be 30.

It's embarrassing that we had to put them as a 30 zone in the first place. People should know to adjust their driving based on conditions, when kids are likely to be about, you slow down.