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Strokestown **Mod Note in Post #4461**

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    #2702
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Just for the hard of understanding around here.

    The UDR was a regiment within the British Army, active from the early 70s to mid 90s.

    Usually consisting of northern Irish people from a unionist/loyalist background, and found to have colluded with loyalist paramilitaries in sectarian violence and murders.

    Different to the illegal paramilitary organisations that had similar letters (UVF/UFF/UDA) etc.

    Regardless, an ex member of the UDR can very aptly be described as a loyalist, ex loyalist for the pedantic around here.

    Wouldn't a member of the British crown forces actually be the epitome of being loyalist?


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    #2703
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,129 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    gandalf wrote: »
    TBH I don't see the big issue with the politics or the nationality of the contractors involved. From watching the video they conducted themselves in the manner I'd expect of people charged with turfing trespassers off property that was no longer theirs. People are making a Mount Everest out of a molehill when the real issues are a serial defaulter and tax fraud gaming the system and a rentamob turning up to beat up people they didn't like on the Sunday morning.

    Ah but this is right down the shinner's street.
    A chance to beat up nordies of non nationalist persuasion and a chance to stand with the "vulnerable" farmer and overburdened mortgage holder.

    Except
    a) they have beaten many a nationalist, all because they don't believe in their brand of nationalism
    b) this guy wasn't vulnerable and wasn't some little guy struggling with his mortgage.
    He was a dodgy chancer who was screwing the state as well.

    Oh wait cancel b) he was exactly the type of dodgy chancer the shinners like.


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    #2704
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,217 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    nullzero wrote: »
    There is a requirement for proof here.
    To describe a northern Irish person who identifies as British as a loyalist isn't bigoted.

    It has already been established that the term loyalist doesn't only mean somebody involved in sectarianism even though people involved in sectarianism on that side of the argument might well call themselves loyalist. They are loyal to Britain, that's the root of the term, it doesn't make them terrorists or inheritly bad people it's a simple description and not bigoted.

    The context it was used in was as a simple description based upon the persons description of themself. I then said that they could not be assumed to be a member of the UDA which was agreeing with the point you made but for some reason you completely ignored that, moved on to say that I had accused the man of being a UDA member and then called me a racist and a bigot.

    I just don't know what the hell is wrong with you Mark, you seem to have some deep seated issues that I hope you can get help with.


    The description of the men as loyalists is entirely pejorative. On this thread it has usually been followed by "scum", "yobs", "eviction squads", "paramilitaries", "terrorists" etc.


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    #2705
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,191 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    Well I suppose we will see Charlie up in arms pretty soon at a myriad of media outlooks who appear to be deliberately misquoting him so.
    markodaly wrote: »
    Why would he? Papers didn't start misquoting people today and they won't be stopping tomorrow. Don't act innocent.

    No media outlet misquoted him.

    There's a fairly significant difference between a quote and writing about a quote.


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    #2706
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,480 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    markodaly wrote: »
    Yes, from you. To describe this person as being 'clearly a Loyalist.
    You made the statement, back it up with some proof.

    Spend less time feigning hurt and dig out the proof, otherwise just admit that perhaps you made an assumption and examine your own conscience that perhaps you made that statement from a bigoted, sectarian lens.

    Loyalist isn't a term of abuse, nor is it bigoted.
    You are attaching meaning to their term that doesn't exist.
    You have casually made statements about me being a bigot and a racist, brought up notions about people with "brown skin" all being members of ISIS.

    You competely misquoted me to begin with saying that I had called the man a UDA member when I said the opposite of that.

    Maybe you need to step back and admit that this argument has more to do with previous arguments we've had on the site than the actual content of my original post on this thread.


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    #2707
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,480 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    The description of the men as loyalists is entirely pejorative. On this thread it has usually been followed by "scum", "yobs", "eviction squads", "paramilitaries", "terrorists" etc.

    Those aren't terms I used.
    I'm not going to accept being called a racist or a bigot by somebody who can't be bothered to read a post he quotes(markodaly)


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    #2708
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,129 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    simongurnick wrote: »
    So do you agree that private security firms from outside the state should be allowed to assault our citizens under the watch of the guards?

    I notice you didn't bother answering on where you stand with regards tax dodgers ?

    And you know what .. I couldn't give a rats ass if even ISIS had actually come over to evict them, because they had ample enough warning that they were going to be evicted, but they have continually ignored and given the two fingers to everyone and anyone (including the honest taxpayers of this state) that they owe money to.

    And if you ever read my posts around here you will find that is some statement from me.

    PS it wasn't assault I believe.


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    #2709
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭The Student


    simongurnick wrote: »
    So do you agree that private security firms from outside the state should be allowed to assault our citizens under the watch of the guards?

    So if a person is to be evicted following due process of the law and refuses to leave and has other people causing trouble what do you suggest is done.

    Ask him nicely to leave and if he does not then just leave him there?

    What people seem to forget is that the Courts made a determination based on the facts in front of it. The occupants of the property had ample time to defend themselves in court and even prior to that engage with the lenders etc.

    If people don't agree with the law then yes by all means protest, but the protest should be peaceful and should not impact on the process of law.

    If people want the law changed then run candidates in elections and get the law changed that way.

    If we start choosing which laws to abide by and which not to we run the risk of anarchy.


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    #2710
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Frank Castle wrote: »
    Now I am originally from the north, protestant and a moderate unionist (not afraid of a UI) and i'm an alliance voter in the north (not decided yet down south who I would vote for). So bear in mind I come from a different perspective/lack of knowledge.

    But that said, I don't understand the hate the most people down south have for SF. where does this stem from? is it their links to the IRA? if so, what is the difference between them and FF/FG. they all have links to that type of past.
    I believe FG even have facist & anti semitic links in their past?

    Does SF get unfairly treated with their past compared to the others? and if so, why?

    (not defending SF here, but I honestly can't see the difference between the 3 parties, and as far as I can tell FF/FG may as well be the one party)

    I would have formerly been a SF voter. They did what was needed during the troubles, apart from some who used it for personal gain, and they brought peace to the table alongside their former rivals in the north which was commendable on both sides.

    However, in ROI, because the people here didn't really understand what went on in the North, they struggled to move their image on from one of violence and bombing etc. The newer blood in SF seem to have realised this and decided to move the party sharply to the left, which is why I no longer vote for them. They are a less extreme people before profit, their populist "we don't want and shouldn't have to pay for anything" rhetoric would have Ireland turned into Greece if they ever got into power.

    I wouldn't mind, but there was a space there, vacated by Labour, for SF to step in as the party of the working wo/man. Sadly they didn't. So now we are stuck with FFG or the looney left. To me, and it looks like the majority looking at polls and previous elections, FFG is the lesser of two evils.


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    #2711
    Allinall
    Registered Users Posts: 6,568 ✭✭✭Allinall


    simongurnick wrote: »
    So do you agree that private security firms from outside the state should be allowed to assault our citizens under the watch of the guards?

    I do, if it is required in carrying out a court order.


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    #2712
    simongurnick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭simongurnick


    jmayo wrote: »
    I notice you didn't bother answering on where you stand with regards tax dodgers ?

    And you know what .. I couldn't give a rats ass if even ISIS had actually come over to evict them, because they had ample enough warning that they were going to be evicted, but they have continually ignored and given the two fingers to everyone and anyone (including the honest taxpayers of this state) that they owe money to.

    And if you ever read my posts around here you will find that is some statement from me.

    PS it wasn't assault I believe.

    I've never once on this thread condoned dodging tax and I do believe there has to be consequences to not paying loans otherwise the system fails but in this case it was way to heavy handed and I was glad they had their arses handed back to them


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    #2713
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    I have yet to see any evidence of these assaults on the owners of the house?


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    #2714
    simongurnick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭simongurnick


    Allinall wrote: »
    I do, if it is required in carrying out a court order.

    Great approach...mobs of unlicensed/regulated goons turfING people onto the street.


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    #2715
    hynesie08
    Registered Users Posts: 9,708 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    simongurnick wrote: »
    Great approach...mobs of unlicensed/regulated goons turfING people onto the street.

    Give us your better idea then....


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    #2716
    simongurnick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭simongurnick


    The Student wrote: »
    So if a person is to be evicted following due process of the law and refuses to leave and has other people causing trouble what do you suggest is done.

    Ask him nicely to leave and if he does not then just leave him there?

    What people seem to forget is that the Courts made a determination based on the facts in front of it. The occupants of the property had ample time to defend themselves in court and even prior to that engage with the lenders etc.

    If people don't agree with the law then yes by all means protest, but the protest should be peaceful and should not impact on the process of law.

    If people want the law changed then run candidates in elections and get the law changed that way.

    If we start choosing which laws to abide by and which not to we run the risk of anarchy.

    Do we know at this point if they followed due process? The family disputes that and has engaged their solicitors. So I don't think we have seen both sides of this story at all


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    #2717
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    simongurnick wrote: »
    Great approach...mobs of unlicensed/regulated goons turfING people onto the street.
    hynesie08 wrote: »
    Give us your better idea then....

    Licensed and regulated outfits?

    And before we get the old "they'll be all over social media" baloney. The UK operate such a system and their whole lives haven't yet gone to hell in a handcart.

    5b807d425a93a93c4a759f7cca7d8a38.png


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    #2718
    simongurnick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭simongurnick


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    Give us your better idea then....

    Well if I was the bank in this case I sure as hell wouldn't want an eviction before Christmas. The bank I work for won't even fire people in the month of December for God's sake. Pr nightmare from kbc. Also using goons from Belfast maybe wasn't the best idea. Lots of things they could have avoided here so as not to fan the flames so badly.


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    #2719
    megatron989
    Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭megatron989


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    I have yet to see any evidence of these assaults on the owners of the house?

    Same here, watching the video it showed the lads in black showing great restraint, under tremendous stress with a crowd of people about recording them. The occupants resisted being removed and were manhandled out but I didn't see anyone getting a beating. It's not nice work but come on lads, someone has to step in at the end of the day and get these people out of properties that they no longer have any ownership of.
    They had unending chances to sort things out, followed by notification of the eviction (7 I believe) and still they remained inside. Na, enough is enough. Handled as I'd expect to be handled should I do similar in my home.


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    #2720
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    simongurnick wrote: »
    Do we know at this point if they followed due process? The family disputes that and has engaged their solicitors. So I don't think we have seen both sides of this story at all

    It’s years ago the family should have engaged solicitors and heeded their advice. Or simply paid their debts.


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    #2721
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,191 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    Licensed and regulated outfits?

    And it is well known that licensed and regulated outfits use an approach of tickling and cuddles to remove occupants.


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    #2722
    KrustyUCC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,034 ✭✭✭KrustyUCC


    Farmer was informed of repossession of property seven times

    Anthony McGann has a long history of financial difficulties

    "The farmer at the centre of the eviction in Co Roscommon was informed several times about the impending repossession of his home before it occurred earlier this month.
    The Irish Independent has learned there were no fewer than seven communications between the local sheriff or the sheriff's messenger and Anthony McGann over several months in the lead-up to the repossession. It has also emerged Mr McGann (50) has a long history of financial difficulties and been convicted of two counts of failing to file tax returns."

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/farmer-was-informed-of-repossession-of-property-seven-times-37639971.html


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    #2723
    simongurnick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭simongurnick


    Buer wrote: »
    And it is well known that licensed and regulated outfits use an approach of tickling and cuddles to remove occupants.

    Hugs as well. Lots of hugs.


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    #2724
    hynesie08
    Registered Users Posts: 9,708 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    Licensed and regulated outfits?

    And before we get the old "they'll be all over social media" baloney. The UK operate such a system and their whole lives haven't yet gone to hell in a handcart.

    I actually agree that it should be a legitimate bailiff company who would have powers above a private citizen but below the guards who carry out these repossesions, and that the PSA should license that, but unfortunately they don't.

    So currently no PSA licensed contractor could touch these jobs, and no unlicensed one can risk the fine, it's a vacuum at the minute that needs to be solved.

    I still don't see any "horrific assault on elderly people" in those videos though....


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    #2725
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,007 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    Just for the hard of understanding around here.

    The UDR was a regiment within the British Army, active from the early 70s to mid 90s.

    Em, the guy in the video is not the same guy from that Irish Mirror article. We don't even know if that guy, even if the article is true was even on site when the eviction happened.
    Wouldn't a member of the British crown forces actually be the epitome of being loyalist?

    No, there are plenty of Irish people in the British Army, they would not describe themselves as 'Loyalists' either.

    Its just a cheap anti-British sectarian pejorative for the keyboard warrior Neanderthals to get high on. Seems to be working too.


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    #2726
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,007 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    KrustyUCC wrote: »
    Farmer was informed of repossession of property seven times

    Anthony McGann has a long history of financial difficulties

    "The farmer at the centre of the eviction in Co Roscommon was informed several times about the impending repossession of his home before it occurred earlier this month.
    The Irish Independent has learned there were no fewer than seven communications between the local sheriff or the sheriff's messenger and Anthony McGann over several months in the lead-up to the repossession. It has also emerged Mr McGann (50) has a long history of financial difficulties and been convicted of two counts of failing to file tax returns."

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/farmer-was-informed-of-repossession-of-property-seven-times-37639971.html

    You have to love the idiots hanging their hats on people like him.

    Erica Fleming first, then Margaret Cash, now Mr McGann.

    We have a rotten underclass and lots of useful idiots.


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    #2727
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,007 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    The UK operate such a system and their whole lives haven't yet gone to hell in a handcart.

    In fairness, two differences.

    Irish people go a bit crazy during evictions.
    Also, the UK (excl NI) don't have a history of paramilitaries or dissidents.

    I have no problem with the proper regulation of Security personnel, but I can guarantee you that it will be used to bully and violently intimidate these people by Eirgi and Republican SF types. People who have a desperate hero complex.


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    #2728
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    markodaly wrote: »
    You have to love the idiots hanging their hats on people like him.

    Erica Fleming first, then Margaret Cash, now Mr McGann.

    We have a rotten underclass and lots of useful idiots.


    You have utter gob****es like Matt Carthy coming out and backing them.


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    #2729
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Buer wrote: »
    And it is well known that licensed and regulated outfits use an approach of tickling and cuddles to remove occupants.

    But at least they'd be licensed and regulated.

    Overstep your mark or remit? License revoked.

    Seems a slightly better option than enlisting men from a different jurisdiction, some of which may have questionable pasts/links.

    But sure we'll continue on with the strokes town method.

    What could go wrong?


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    #2730
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    markodaly wrote: »
    In fairness, two differences.

    Irish people go a bit crazy during evictions.
    Also, the UK (excl NI) don't have a history of paramilitaries or dissidents.

    I have no problem with the proper regulation of Security personnel, but I can guarantee you that it will be used to bully and violently intimidate these people by Eirgi and Republican SF types. People who have a desperate hero complex.


    Given the strong support for the McGanns from the likes of Matt Carthy and Pearse Doherty, I am not so sure anymore that the vigilante mob which killed the dog were just dissident republicans.


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    #2731
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭The Student


    simongurnick wrote: »
    Do we know at this point if they followed due process? The family disputes that and has engaged their solicitors. So I don't think we have seen both sides of this story at all

    So are you suggesting that the Court issued a court order which was incorrect and the occupants did not appeal the decision on a point of law at the time if they felt that the correct process was not followed.

    It is not very difficult to get a "Stay put on an order" through the courts if a judgement was granted in which there is a question over the process of the judges decision.

    A "stay" puts the enforcement of an order on hold while the facts of the case and the process is re examined.


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