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Men running in ladies numbers.

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13

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    #62
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    The "security reasons" for photos and name and address details on Glastonbury tickets is specifically due to people taking things that they were not entitled to (entry to the festival) and that then risking the safety and future of the festival when numbers on site increased so much.


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    #63
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    robinph wrote: »
    Go on and convince us that it is right to transfer race entries when it is specifically stated that it is not permitted on the entry rules.


    There is no convincing yourself or anyone on here who organises races or likes the security of having rules to guide their moral principles.


    You're either fine with it or you're not.


    As long as the races are not flexible and sell out there will be someone somewhere whos keen to race and happy to swap.


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    #64
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    robinph wrote: »
    The "security reasons" for photos and name and address details on Glastonbury tickets is specifically due to people taking things that they were not entitled to (entry to the festival) and that then risking the safety and future of the festival when numbers on site increased so much.


    They're more concerned with touts selling tickets for 3 or 4 four times face value or some lunatic blowing people up or drug dealing.


    Trust me its on a totally different level to jack racing 40 minutes posing as Mary. Meanwhile Ann collects her 100 euro voucher and Jack gets a boot up the arse and sent home with no shiny medal.


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    #65
    Djoucer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 620 ✭✭✭Djoucer


    We’ve compared race entries to eating sandwiches, haircuts and now Glastonbury.

    Should probably start comparing them to other races that allow transfers.

    The crime rate would be dramatically reduced due to the number of thieves going straight.


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    #66
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    Djoucer wrote: »
    We’ve compared race entries to eating sandwiches, haircuts and now Glastonbury.

    Should probably start comparing them to other races that allow transfers.

    The crime rate would be dramatically reduced due to the number of thieves going straight.


    :D


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    #67
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,270 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Hurrache wrote: »
    You've ignored this twice now, I'll try again.

    If your mate gives you the use of a service which he can't use but has paid for, and you use it, lets say a cinema ticket, are you stealing if you go watch that movie?

    I think you've dug yourself into a hole by initially claiming that it's theft and aren't willing to accept it, but are rather doubling down on it, no matter how silly it makes the argument.


    What is the hole?

    Your mate didn't have the right to give you the use of the ticket. Any contract was between him and the organisers, he might give you a piece of paper but that doesn't mean there is any agreement between you and the organisers. As such if you turn up and use their facilities then you are doing so without any authorisation.

    So what if your mate paid for the ticket, that is between him and them. What is between you and the organisers is a different thing altogether.


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    #68
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Djoucer wrote: »
    Should probably start comparing them to other races that allow transfers.
    .
    But the races that allow transfers, well they allow transfers so there isn't any issues.

    But would people consider it OK to do an unofficial number swap for a race that does allow transfers, just they don't feel like paying the transfer fee?


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    #69
    Djoucer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 620 ✭✭✭Djoucer


    robinph wrote: »
    But the races that allow transfers, well they allow transfers so there isn't any issues.

    But would people consider it OK to do an unofficial number swap for a race that does allow transfers, just they don't feel like paying the transfer fee?

    They manage to avoid the reasons you suggested as to why you can’t swap numbers.

    We all acknowledge organising races can be a massive pain. Just look at any race’s Facebook page with the ludicrous demands.

    Others are arguing that race transfers should be allowed so runner’s numbers and money, doesn’t go to waste.

    As more and more races do this, the excuses don’t stack up.


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    #70
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,414 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    robinph wrote: »
    So what would you call taking something that you don't have permission to make use of then?

    A civil matter ? Breach of contract ?


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    #71
    dublin runner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭dublin runner


    If you sign up to a race, a race with a non-transfer policy (90%+) of races, don't complain when you get injured, cannot attend or have a schedule conflict.

    The best way to avoid a scenario like the only outlined above, is simply not to enter. Another option is to enter on the day if not sold out etc.

    Complaining when the T&C's are usually explicit. Doesn't make much sense, does it?

    You can of course only enter races with a transfer policy or refund policy.

    Some of the posts showcase the naivety of some when it comes to organising a race. Don't forget - most races are primarily volunteer led. Maybe think about that before forming an opinion.


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    #72
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    What is the hole?

    Your mate didn't have the right to give you the use of the ticket. Any contract was between him and the organisers, he might give you a piece of paper but that doesn't mean there is any agreement between you and the organisers. As such if you turn up and use their facilities then you are doing so without any authorisation.

    So what if your mate paid for the ticket, that is between him and them. What is between you and the organisers is a different thing altogether.

    So what law am I breaking which will have the gardai arresting me for stealing?
    dublin runner wrote: »
    Some of the posts showcase the naivety of some when it comes to organising a race. Don't forget - most races are primarily volunteer led. Maybe think about that before forming an opinion.

    I've been involved in running events (these days pretty much all with non profit events, actually not even that anymore as it's been a while), and when we do, and we have done so, find someone running under a different number we disqualify them for reasons we all understand. We don't seek financial or legal retribution for a non existent theft, because we haven't been robbed.

    But I don't think there's any requisite to form an opinion on this matter either way.

    Nor should we be excluded from complaining about something because it's in the T&C's, it's the T&C's that people have issue with! To say it doesn't make sense to complain about it is an odd thing to say. I guess you don't complain about government policies or law because they're legislated for?


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    #73
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Hurrache wrote: »
    So what law am I breaking
    The ones to do with making use of services to which you have no rights to use.
    Hurrache wrote: »
    which will have the gardai arresting me for stealing?
    None, because as we all know it is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.


    Hurrache wrote: »
    I've been involved in running events (these days pretty much all with non profit events, actually not even that anymore as it's been a while), and when we do, and we have done so, find someone running under a different number we disqualify them for reasons we all understand. We don't seek financial or legal retribution for a non existent theft, because we haven't been robbed.

    But I don't think there's any requisite to form an opinion on this matter either way.
    That's fine if you don't consider your time to be of value personally. That someone is making use of your services when they haven't paid for them or have the right to use them is theft. Totally in agreement with you that nobody is ever likely to do anything about it, that doesn't stop what it is though or the added extra costs that it causes the race organisers.

    You have said yourself that when dealing with instances previously you have had to go and change results and disqualify people, that is things that you wouldn't have to do otherwise and there are costs to doing that. Maybe the cost isn't cash into your pocket for your time, but if you end up spending too much effort having to fix the results each time then eventually you'll get fed up with it and stop volunteering.

    The costs don't have to be monetary to still have an impact on the viability of events existing.
    Hurrache wrote: »
    Nor should we be excluded from complaining about something because it's in the T&C's, it's the T&C's that people have issue with! To say it doesn't make sense to complain about it is an odd thing to say. I guess you don't complain about government policies or law because they're legislated for?
    Absolutely, complain away and get races to provide transfer options. Don't try and claim that breaking the rules and incurring costs for events and ruining the validity of the results etc is the right way to go about getting the change though.


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    #74
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Last post on this as we're going around in circles and boring everyone else, there is no law to prevent someone running under someone else's entry which has been paid for. They're not stealing anything, and to say so ad nauseam is ridiculous. Your own personal morals don't equate to law.

    And you can read over my posts several times, you'll never find one in which I insinuate, or claim, that "breaking the rules and incurring costs for events and ruining the validity of the results etc is the right way to go about getting the change though."

    Plus there are no additional costs, financial or time(unless you go ahead and win a ladies race as a man), the race entry had already been paid for and everything around it processed.


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    #75
    Run and Jump
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭Run and Jump


    Can we talk about men running in ladies' gear instead? Asking for a friend.


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    #76
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,942 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    robinph wrote: »
    I don't see any hole. Maybe the word theft is too emotive a word, but if you have another term for making use of a service that you don't have permission to use then let us know:

    http://kbcdublinmarathon.ie/rules-and-regulations/


    https://www.virginmoneylondonmarathon.com/en-gb/general-conditions-entry/

    You can't sign away your rights in a contact. Non transfer or sale of an item you bought would be against consumer law, except for the few exemptions.


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    #77
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Hurrache wrote: »
    Last post on this as we're going around in circles and boring everyone else, there is no law to prevent someone running under someone else's entry which has been paid for. They're not stealing anything, and to say so ad nauseam is ridiculous. Your own personal morals don't equate to law.

    You must have missed the bits about "numbers cannot be transferred" that you agree to when signing up for races then?

    So the person who entered initially is breaking that contract with the race, and the person receiving the number has no contract with the race so therefore they are making use of services they have not paid for. Which bit of that are you disagreeing with?
    Hurrache wrote: »
    Plus there are no additional costs, financial or time(unless you go ahead and win a ladies race as a man), the race entry had already been paid for and everything around it processed.

    Is your time in fixing issues with the results that you mentioned above not a cost?

    There is more than the relatively easy to spot first female number crossing the line being male though as there are age group awards all through the field that are getting messed up and people missing out and the costs associated with sorting all that out.


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    #78
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Del2005 wrote: »
    You can't sign away your rights in a contact. Non transfer or sale of an item you bought would be against consumer law, except for the few exemptions.

    But wouldn't that would only mean that you can go and ask that they let you transfer the number to someone else or ask for a refund, not that you can transfer the number privately without letting them know or that someone they have no contract with can take part in the race in your place?


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    #79
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,270 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Del2005 wrote: »
    You can't sign away your rights in a contact. Non transfer or sale of an item you bought would be against consumer law, except for the few exemptions.

    What has been bought? An item, or an agreement to provide a service?


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    #80
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,942 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    robinph wrote: »
    But wouldn't that would only mean that you can go and ask that they let you transfer the number to someone else or ask for a refund, not that you can transfer the number privately without letting them know or that someone they have no contract with can take part in the race in your place?

    No I can sell or give away anything I own or have access to. So if I have a voucher I cannot use I can give it to someone else or if a flight and I can find someone with the same name they can use it. So if I bought an entry for an event they saying I can't transfer is against consumer law so its an invalid clause in the contract, just like the signs in carparks saying that they aren't responsible for damage are BS.


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    #81
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,942 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    What has been bought? An item, or an agreement to provide a service?

    An entry to a race in this thread.


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    #82
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,270 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Del2005 wrote: »
    An entry to a race in this thread.

    And is that an item or is it a service provided?


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    #83
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,942 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    And is that an item or is it a service provided?

    It doesn't matter. You can't restrict what someone does with either once they purchase it.


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    #84
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Del2005 wrote: »
    It doesn't matter. You can't restrict what someone does with either once they purchase it.

    The person who bought the service is free to not use it, but they can't resell it onto someone else without the service provider knowing about it. The event has the list of names that are taking part, if your name isn't on that list then you don't have a right to be there. There is presumably also insurance requirements for the organisers to know who is participating in their event tied into that.

    If you want to transfer the number you can almost certainly win the legal argument against the organiser to let you transfer the number to someone else, or possibly ask for a refund. You have bought permission for you to run in the race, not for you to transfer the number for someone else to run in the race under your name.


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    #85
    Djoucer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 620 ✭✭✭Djoucer


    You can sell concert tickets. It’s exact same as that.

    People power led to Govt taking action against ticket touts.

    Although judging by comments here, runners are like turkeys voting for Christmas, and happy to let race entries go to waste.


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    #86
    HelenAnne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,035 ✭✭✭HelenAnne


    robinph wrote: »
    But what would actually happen is nobody gets the award, the woman thinks she finished 2nd and that the person finishing 1st just couldn't be bothered to hang around for their award. Or even if it is figured out before presenting on the day and the 4th woman across the line has already gone home by then because the online results say she's 4th, but then shes really 3rd and misses out on her moment of glory. How is that fair on her because some bloke couldn't be bothered to enter on time?

    Or the awards just get posted out to the wrong people and nobody knows any better. Only the really obvious errors such as a vf80 winning overall would get picked up at that point.
    Lazare wrote: »
    The points you've made are all based on extreme rarities, the vast majority of swapping goes on unnoticed.

    To say it's theft is frankly ridiculous. Laughable.

    To get back to the men running on ladies numbers - obviously it's not a big deal, it's not like I'm running for a place in the Olympics, but I've missed out a few times because of men - once was just at a parkrun, where obviously there are no winners, but it's nice to be first finisher and see a '1' in the results. I made a big effort a couple of years ago to pass the two other women I could see ahead of me, but I was still down as '2' in the results because a man ran with a woman's barcode. (maybe a mistake, but he still pushed me down the rankings).
    Another time, I missed out on an age group prize because a man, running on his wife's number, finished ahead of me. The couple weren't there at the prize giving, so he wasn't able to clear up the issue, and they posted the prize out to her. The couple very kindly admitted the mistake and sent it back, and I got the prize (a voucher) in the post - but other members of my club also won prizes that day, and they got to go up and get them, and were in photos together on the club website, and I wasn't in any of them as I didn't know I'd won.
    Again, I know it's not a big deal, but they are the little annoyances of men running on women's numbers that I've experienced :)


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    #87
    HelenAnne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,035 ✭✭✭HelenAnne


    PS re all the chat about transfers. I agree that it should be possible BUT a lot of races are run by clubs / volunteers and any extra service is extra (unpaid!) work for them.
    I'd suggest people who'd like to see transfers offered volunteer on the race committee, thus giving extra hands to the race and allowing them to offer more services.


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    #88
    sideswipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭sideswipe


    Anybody else keep seeing this thread title at a glance and reading it as 'Men running in ladies undies'?


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    #89
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    HelenAnne wrote: »
    To get back to the men running on ladies numbers - obviously it's not a big deal, it's not like I'm running for a place in the Olympics, but I've missed out a few times because of men - once was just at a parkrun, where obviously there are no winners, but it's nice to be first finisher and see a '1' in the results. I made a big effort a couple of years ago to pass the two other women I could see ahead of me, but I was still down as '2' in the results because a man ran with a woman's barcode. (maybe a mistake, but he still pushed me down the rankings).
    Another time, I missed out on an age group prize because a man, running on his wife's number, finished ahead of me. The couple weren't there at the prize giving, so he wasn't able to clear up the issue, and they posted the prize out to her. The couple very kindly admitted the mistake and sent it back, and I got the prize (a voucher) in the post - but other members of my club also won prizes that day, and they got to go up and get them, and were in photos together on the club website, and I wasn't in any of them as I didn't know I'd won.
    Again, I know it's not a big deal, but they are the little annoyances of men running on women's numbers that I've experienced :)


    Good points you've made Helen and the only reasonable and relevant points made in favour of the issue since the thread opened.


    If it was me I would be furious and up like a light to name and shame. Did you know at the races themselves?
    I wouldn't have let it go if I made the effort to run fast like that. It is a big deal and precisely why a lot of women get sidelined and forgotten sometimes. It was up to you to speak up and get yourself put further up the rankings. Its obviously a big enough deal for you to make the effort to get to the front and pass out other runners so why let it go after that?


    Not knocking you personally because I know you're a good runner.


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    #90
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,438 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    M.m.m. wrote: »
    Good points you've made Helen and the only reasonable and relevant points made in favour of the issue since the thread opened.


    If it was me I would be furious and up like a light to name and shame. Did you know at the races themselves?
    I wouldn't have let it go if I made the effort to run fast like that. It is a big deal and precisely why a lot of women get sidelined and forgotten sometimes. It was up to you to speak up and get yourself put further up the rankings. Its obviously a big enough deal for you to make the effort to get to the front and pass out other runners so why let it go after that?


    Not knocking you personally because I know you're a good runner.

    I think it's clear that Helenanne didn't realise til afterwards what had transpired.


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    #91
    M.m.m.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    HelenAnne wrote: »
    PS re all the chat about transfers. I agree that it should be possible BUT a lot of races are run by clubs / volunteers and any extra service is extra (unpaid!) work for them.
    I'd suggest people who'd like to see transfers offered volunteer on the race committee, thus giving extra hands to the race and allowing them to offer more services.


    Most people running are not interested in volunteering or dont have the time.
    If the race is lead by volunteers then they already know it would be a waste of time to go to committees to get rules like this over turned since they probably dont have the money or resources to change the software any any other stuff around it in the first place.


    Its the kind of rule that needs to be changed at the top and maybe get a bit of funding for it to trickle down to club races etc. (I know funding...thats a joke) but it does need to change across the board.
    Swapping one of those things that will always happen no matter what your opinion is...why not just address it.


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