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Men running in ladies numbers.

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  • 08-12-2018 5:37pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭


    Number swapping is obviously very prevalent in races. At today's Aware 10km, a friend of mine was originally listed as 5th finisher, but thanks to video evidence of the race results organizers she was rightly promoted to 2nd place. Guys should at least have the cop on not to wear a ladies number if they are capable of running a 10km in less than 42 minutes!


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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Just don't swap numbers ever, unless authorised by the race organiser. Grrrrr.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,445 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    For the organisation, it’s a charity race. The focus is not on the competition. My advice would be to enter the county or provincial or national 10k where these issues of personation would actually be treated seriously. The Aware race (a good one, I’ve run it myself) is not competitive, it’s a fundraiser.


  • Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭Ceekay


    Murph_D wrote: »
    For the organisation, it’s a charity race. The focus is not on the competition. My advice would be to enter the county or provincial or national 10k where these issues of personation would actually be treated seriously. The Aware race (a good one, I’ve run it myself) is not competitive, it’s a fundraiser.

    I actually agree with you, I try to just compete in club races myself. Maybe there were even no prizes in this race...although there were certainly elite athletes taking part....and running serious times!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭ger664


    People should never number swap even in a charity race. It creates havoc if there is a H&S issue trying to identify a participant who maybe unconscious.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 620 ✭✭✭Djoucer


    ger664 wrote: »
    People should never number swap even in a charity race. It creates havoc if there is a H&S issue trying to identify a participant who maybe unconscious.

    The health and safety is a nonsense excuse. Just ask people to write their next of kin details on back of the number.

    And allow number swaps. It’s not that difficult. Baffled as to why runners are happy to pay out €30 and be told no refunds.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    Djoucer wrote: »
    The health and safety is a nonsense excuse. Just ask people to write their next of kin details on back of the number.

    And allow number swaps. It’s not that difficult. Baffled as to why runners are happy to pay out €30 and be told no refunds.


    Couldn't agree more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭SeeMoreBut


    If taking a female number and you’re are a male you should either start miles back so not effect the podium or remove the chip so missed on the timings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭chinguetti


    Djoucer wrote: »
    The health and safety is a nonsense excuse. Just ask people to write their next of kin details on back of the number.

    And allow number swaps. It’s not that difficult. Baffled as to why runners are happy to pay out €30 and be told no refunds.

    I beg to differ. I did a 10k a few years ago now. Guy collapsed and sadly died. He had got the number from someone who didn't run so I can only imagine what happened when the organisers rang the NOK on the number.

    And yes, I know that its incredibly rare but number swaps just shouldn't happen for that reason in my mind.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,114 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    Races should facilitate name changes on race numbers for that very reason. Timing companies can do this fairly easily.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    The health and safety issues are very real and valid reason for not allowing transfers. I have serious health issues, and if you get mistaken for me by wearing a duplicate number in a marathon (it has happened, hello "Keith") then it could be a fatal mistake if you get scooped up off the road in a delirious state during a marathon as they start giving you my medication. Hell it's dangerous enough for me if they start giving me my medication as there are many instances of medics not knowing about what/ how much to give and when.

    Quite apart from that you have issues with the wrong families being connected.

    Don't care how much people think they deserve their entry fee back because they got injured, you don't. Duplicate number, swapping numbers, banditing with no number is all wrong, dangerous and theft


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,193 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    chinguetti wrote: »
    so I can only imagine what happened when the organisers rang the NOK on the number.

    I'd hope that when they got an answer they didn't just blurt out sorry your husband is dead or something like that, I'm sure there was a bit of verification before hand.

    But the arguments put out there by organisers for them not facilitating transfers is usually just an excuse not to do it, it's pretty easy to do so and takes not particular set of skills.


  • Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭SeeMoreBut


    robinph wrote: »
    The health and safety issues are very real and valid reason for not allowing transfers. I have serious health issues, and if you get mistaken for me by wearing a duplicate number in a marathon (it has happened, hello "Keith") then it could be a fatal mistake if you get scooped up off the road in a delirious state during a marathon as they start giving you my medication. Hell it's dangerous enough for me if they start giving me my medication as there are many instances of medics not knowing about what/ how much to give and when.

    Quite apart from that you have issues with the wrong families being connected.

    Don't care how much people think they deserve their entry fee back because they got injured, you don't. Duplicate number, swapping numbers, banditing with no number is all wrong, dangerous and theft

    Giving medication hasn’t got anything to do with number swapping. I seriously doubt anyone transferring a number would fill the back before passing it on.

    What races ask you your medical history when registering.

    If you need help I’m not sure you’d get someone ringing up asking to speak to rd to give me the medical info on number 12345

    No excuses for big races not having a facility in place. Build it once and reuse it


  • Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Birdsong


    adrian522 wrote:
    Races should facilitate name changes on race numbers for that very reason. Timing companies can do this fairly easily.

    The majority of races are organised by volunteers, especially all the good club races. These guys really don't have the capacity to add an extra layer of administration on to an already big under taking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭chinguetti


    Hurrache wrote: »
    But the arguments put out there by organisers for them not facilitating transfers is usually just an excuse not to do it, it's pretty easy to do so and takes not particular set of skills.

    Most races are run by volunteers who give up their time for nothing. Imagine the hassle if people wanted to swap their number and the paperwork involved if you didn't advertise this fact and then decided to do it. The volunteers would be driven mad with people changing all the time.

    Charge them money and people will complain, don't swap numbers and people will complain. I'd love to know how many races who do swaps apart from the Waterford Half in Ireland as I don't know of any.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭crazy 88


    people get injuries and plans change so there will always be number swaps. If you're running a race for profit and scaring people into signing up early through early birds and heavy marketing you should be making allowances for race swaps.
    Djoucer wrote: »
    Just ask people to write their next of kin details on back of the number.
    this is a great idea. or even on the front


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    I have on a number of occasions passed my number to another person when I couldn't run. In some cases I gave the number away for free, just happy that someone else who was really looking forward to running and never got a chance to sign up could benefit from my misfortune or lacklustre training.



    The only thing I ever said to them when passing it on was to make sure they put THEIR name and address on it and to try not to pass out on the course.


    Seriously, passing on a number shouldn't be viewed so negatively if the person in question has the common sense to write their details on the number and hang back from the top 3 or 4 in a race.



    I actually find this thread difficult to comprehend, thinking of a guy who must be dedicated enough to run 40 mins or so but doesn't have a number for the race and doesn't cop that the front women will be in their time bracket...the mind boggles.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    I distracted things slightly with my talk of faked numbers and people getting wrongly identified. But that is only a very slight deviation and number swaps, fake numbers, banditing is all part of the same thing where people think that the rules don't apply to them.

    If you have not paid for a race entry and you run a race then it is theft. You are stealing resources from the race organisers and increasing their costs such as for water, food, tshirts, medals, road closure charges, emergency service cover etc. And that is even if you think you are not actually taking of those facilities/ services. Just by you being there is increasing those costs. It is all factored into the entry fees as they know how many people will turn up each year and deliberately sell more places than they are licensed to have on course.

    Swapping numbers, if not permitted by the event, is also causing issues for the events. You are causing extra admin, causing errors in the results (regardless of if you are finishing in the top three or not) as you will screw up all results throughout the field, causing extra costs for the the event as you mess up their predictions on how many people will turn up on the day, so they then have to reduce numbers/ increase costs to accommodate that in the future. It is also cheating the system as why are YOU deemed more important that anyone else and you are allowed to break the rules, why do you get to take a number from someone else rather than any other person who missed out on entry, why does the person giving up their number get to have their entry money paid back from someone because they got injured but someone else doesn't who happens to follow the rules.


    It would be great if events allowed numbers to be returned and then re-issued, but if they don't then that is not justification to do it anyway. The rules that you sign up for when you pay are the same for everyone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,193 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    robinph wrote: »
    If you have not paid for a race entry and you run a race then it is theft. You are stealing resources from the race organisers and increasing their costs such as for water, food, tshirts, medals, road closure charges, emergency service cover etc. And that is even if you think you are not actually taking of those facilities/ services. Just by you being there is increasing those costs. It is all factored into the entry fees as they know how many people will turn up each year and deliberately sell more places than they are licensed to have on course.

    None of this is applies if you run under another's number and that person doesn't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower


    Id agree that you either give them their money back or allow them to change the name on it, can't have it both ways. People are going to run with someones elses name if you don't allow either.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Hurrache wrote: »
    None of this is applies if you run under another's number and that person doesn't.

    But it does.

    Big events will be anticipating a certain percentage of runners not showing up on the day. The licenses they get for number of people on the course is based on knowing how many will not turn up on the day and that then determines how much police/ ambulance/ water/ food/ baggage storage/ etc cover they need.

    If people are swapping numbers then that is disrupting those calculations and so increasing the costs. If everyone who has just paid for an Dublin Marathon entry for 2019 did actually turn up next October then they will be massively over capacity for the space available on the roads and the numbers would have to be reduced the following year despite the costs going up. The entry fees would then jump up as well, but the number of entries sold would reduce.



    You can make the point that it should be relatively easy for a big event to implement a number transfer/ waiting list option, but that is still going to increase costs for carrying it out. Smaller events might not have the same ratios of people not turning up on the day, but they are probably also not sold out, so by swapping numbers you are denying the race the extra entry fee whilst at the same time creating extra work for them to figure out errors in the results that they are probably less able to figure out than a big event could.



    I can't see any justification for swapping numbers that doesn't come down to someone thinking they are above the rules that everyone else has to follow.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As a non-runner, I'm intrigued........how / why do people swap numbers? Like, how would a man end up with a lady's number in the first place? After selling their entry?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    robinph wrote: »
    But it does.

    Big events will be anticipating a certain percentage of runners not showing up on the day. The licenses they get for number of people on the course is based on knowing how many will not turn up on the day and that then determines how much police/ ambulance/ water/ food/ baggage storage/ etc cover they need.

    If people are swapping numbers then that is disrupting those calculations and so increasing the costs. If everyone who has just paid for an Dublin Marathon entry for 2019 did actually turn up next October then they will be massively over capacity for the space available on the roads and the numbers would have to be reduced the following year despite the costs going up. The entry fees would then jump up as well, but the number of entries sold would reduce.
    I'd love to see your proof that organisers are allowed to organsise an event that does not have the capacity to hold the number of tickets they are supplying. That sounds totally illegal.


    So I sell 20,000 tickets for DCM and I know as an organiser of the event that it will only hold 17,000 or there will be a possible catastrophe but you know based on statistics and past events that wont happen.
    Yeah, tell that to health and safety.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,964 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    robinph wrote: »
    causing extra costs for the the event as you mess up their predictions on how many people will turn up on the day

    Surely the predictions already account for number swapping which is commonplace?

    If I manage not to get injured between now and DCM 2019 for once, I'll have to feel bad for messing up their "predictions".


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Stark wrote: »
    Surely the predictions already account for number swapping which is commonplace?

    I think that social media has made it far more common as previously you wouldn't be able make contact with someone else prepared to swap numbers so easily if you were just stuck with the circle of friends that you actually knew in real life.



    For the ratios of how many entries to sell v how many people take part: If you have a license and capacity for 17,000 runners on the route, but know that 20% won't turn up on the day do you sell 17,000 places for €100 and have 14,000 runners turn up on the day, or do you sell 20,000 places at €80 and have 17,000 turn up on the day? I don't think the numbers turning up on the day v entries has massively changed since it's been selling out in advance and when you could still enter the couple of weeks before, it's also very similar to other city marathons.

    London Marathon issue nearly 50,000 numbers and get just shy of 40,000 on the day, the entry fee is less of an issue there as it is heavily subsidised by sponsorship and is exceedingly cheap. The costs to the organisation if an unexpected 10,000 more people turn up though would be massive. Whilst I'm not suggesting that 10,000 extra people will be turning up, that just brings it back to someone who is swapping their number thinking that the rules don't apply to them so why shouldn't they be allowed to get away with it because they are more important than the rest of us?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,193 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    robinph wrote: »
    But it does.

    Big events will be anticipating a certain percentage of runners not showing up on the day. The licenses they get for number of people on the course is based on knowing how many will not turn up on the day and that then determines how much police/ ambulance/ water/ food/ baggage storage/ etc cover they need.

    So big events are banking on people not turning up, keeping their money, but it's the runners who turn up that are the ones that are stealing?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Hurrache wrote: »
    So big events are banking on people not turning up, keeping their money, but it's the runners who turn up that are the ones that are stealing?

    Nope, it's the people who are not paying the organisers for their entry fee that are stealing, or causing extra admin for the organisers, or causing people to miss out on age group/ gender awards, or who think the rules don't apply to them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭M.m.m.


    robinph wrote: »
    Nope, it's the people who are not paying the organisers for their entry fee that are stealing, or causing extra admin for the organisers, or causing people to miss out on age group/ gender awards, or who think the rules don't apply to them.


    This is just a farcical, its on par as saying I'm happy to pay bank charges, they are legitimate and justified.



    So you're saying that a woman for example would miss out on her gender award because Jack who came in ahead of her has gone up to collect her prize with his 12 o'çlock shadow and a pair of apples up his top.


    There is no admin since organisers havn't organised the swap. If they're supplying 20,000 numbers and selling them all then they need to organise facilities for 20,000 people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower


    As a non-runner, I'm intrigued........how / why do people swap numbers? Like, how would a man end up with a lady's number in the first place? After selling their entry?

    If you can't make a race you give your number to a friend


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,396 ✭✭✭fletch


    Surely it's the timing companies that simply need to put a bit of development into their websites to facilitate swaps (up until a certain date)? Thus no cost to the organisers. (Perhaps the timing company may increase their fee slightly to pay for the dev cost but it should be nominal when divided out over all the races and tbh the companies should be looking at something to set themselves apart from the competition and this would definitely help).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,193 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    robinph wrote: »
    Nope, it's the people who are not paying the organisers for their entry fee that are stealing, or causing extra admin for the organisers, or causing people to miss out on age group/ gender awards, or who think the rules don't apply to them.

    So say a friend pays for a service, can't use that service so gives me the ticket/voucher/whatever, and I use that service to the full, I'm a thief?
    fletch wrote: »
    Surely it's the timing companies simply need to put a bit of development into their websites to facilitate swaps (up until a certain date)? Thus no cost to the organisers. (Perhaps the timing company may increase their fee slightly to pay for the dev cost but it should be nominal when divided out over all the races and tbh the companies should be looking at something to set themselves apart from the competition and this would definitely help).

    Some events do such a thing, a webpage exists in which you can log on, change the entry details, and away you go, everyone happy because you get your fee from the person you're handing over your entry to and the other person a race entry.

    If an event doesn't facilitate such a thing, it's through no blame of entrants to circumvent the no race swap rule to stop themselves being out of pocket. For a recurring event such as the marathons it's not that difficult, or expensive, a system to introduce in the grand scheme of things. The excuse of added admin overhead no longer applies in the days in which you don't have large teams of data admins manually reading and entering race details.


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