Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Rjd2 · 10-12-2018 09:07PM

Tell me how wrote: »

I watched a good portion of the debate in the house of commons this afternoon.

Some people not holding back at all in pointing fingers at and naming the hard Brexiteers for the role in the fiasco so far and saying the obvious that no deal will make the ERG happy.

Today was a good day for them tbf. All this chaos and delay makes a no deal more likely especially as May and Corbyn utterly incompetent.

Not a bad effort for what is ultimately a very small number of MPS.

EDIT...No deal before 1st Of April is 1/2 on BF now. :eek:

hill16bhoy · 10-12-2018 09:11PM

Douglas Thoughtless Headache wrote: »

And a regular GE cycle as per nearly every state on the planet, is the same thing as leaving Europe after many decades, a new Independance of sorts?

This year: 2018.
Brexit Ref: 2016
Scotish Independence Ref: 2014

In light of current conditions, can only imagine a few Scots are checking their calanders having been presented with a new dynamic, that appears to be a stalemate of sorts for them.

The question is would a 2nd Ref right now solve anything, the answer is 'who knows', there is a risk it might further complicate matters.

Presumably you view the 2017 General Election as undemocratic given that it took place 2 years and 1 month after the 2015 one.

We're already 2 years and 6 months since the referendum - a referendum which you presumably also view as undemocratic given that there had already been one in 1975.

4068ac1elhodqr · 10-12-2018 09:11PM

badtoro wrote: »

Just on Scotland, how may they get another indy ref if they wish for one? Are there time limits from the last or other conditions?

We'll it's been 4yrs, perhaps more than enough time for many, considering their new found situation, that they as a country of sorts, really didn't want.

If we're to believe the polls (which I take little notice of, but many others swear by as gospel), then 'Scottish independence' would be better than a no-deal Brexit, say 59%.https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scottish-independence-better-than-brexit-htt8lbwvc

lawred2 · 10-12-2018 09:11PM

Rjd2 wrote: »

Today was a good day for them tbf. All this chaos and delay makes a no deal more likely especially as May and Corbyn utterly incompetent.

Not a bad effort for what is ultimately a very small number of MPS.

EDIT...No deal before 1st Of April is 1/2 on BF now. :eek:

Fools Day is apt

4068ac1elhodqr · 10-12-2018 09:15PM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Presumably you view the 2017 General Election as undemocratic given that it took place 2 years and 1 month after the 2015 one.

We're already 2 years and 6 months since the referendum - a referendum which you presumably also view as undemocratic given that there had already been one in 1975.

So a GE and referendum on EU membership are the same thing? Ooo..k.

The only country to leave the EU, after more than 40yrs, creating such upheaval and debate perhaps would give you the slightest clue as it it's significance, perchance.

Hurrache · 10-12-2018 09:19PM

road_high wrote: »

And ****e for Irish exporters! Further evidence that we need to diversify move beyond the volatility of the Uk and pound sterling and broaden our own trade horizons

We have.

Professor Moriarty · 10-12-2018 09:27PM

road_high wrote: »

So Tessie is off to Holland in the morning for more begging. How likely are the EU chiefs to give them even more concessions?

If I were representing the EU, I would take a step back and assess my position.

Firstly, the EU has painstakingly agreed to a deal and just a couple of weeks later the UK wants to change it. How will this benefit the EU? Apart from avoiding a hard Brexit, it won't benefit the EU at all. It's also obvious that the UK has far more to lose than the EU in the event of a hard Brexit.

Secondly, agreeing to change the backstop will go against Ireland's wishes and that can't be seen to happen.

Thirdly, if one detail of the deal is renegotiated it could open Pandora's box. The whole deal may then quickly unravel as other countries look for change.

Fourthly and most importantly, any concession on the backstop won't placate the Brexiteers anyway. They will simply focus on another weakness in May's deal. So there is no reason why the EU should offer to renegotiate or agree to any concessions.

devnull · 10-12-2018 09:29PM

Theresa May is going to do a tour of European Capitals to try and get them to change their minds.

Does she still not get the concept of what the EU is and how it is a union and not just a place where she can go from country to country to try and place pressure on the EU.

Professor Moriarty · 10-12-2018 09:30PM

Rjd2 wrote: »

Today was a good day for them tbf. All this chaos and delay makes a no deal more likely especially as May and Corbyn utterly incompetent.

Not a bad effort for what is ultimately a very small number of MPS.

EDIT...No deal before 1st Of April is 1/2 on BF now. :eek:

Jesus, that's frightening. A ship of fools indeed.

An Claidheamh · 10-12-2018 09:31PM

theguzman wrote: »

It is a huge political crisis for the EU because the Franco/German empire is.... the Southern Irish Government here.

"Southern Irish government?"

Either a Brit pretending to be Irish, a northern loyalist pretending to be British pretending to be Irish or someone taking the p1ss/psychotic.

All done pretty badly.

Sign of the times that it's difficult to tell the difference.

Incidentally, I for one am looking forward to the subjugation of the UK by the Franco-German empire.

hill16bhoy · 10-12-2018 09:32PM

Douglas Thoughtless Headache wrote: »

So a GE and referendum on EU membership are the same thing? Ooo..k.

The only country to leave the EU, after more than 40yrs, creating such upheaval and debate perhaps would give you the slightest clue as it it's significance, perchance.

I asked you did you view the 2017 UK General Election as undemocratic.

I also asked you whether you viewed the 2016 EU membership referendum as undemocratic, given that there had already been one previously.

You didn't answer either question.

An Claidheamh · 10-12-2018 09:34PM

devnull wrote: »

Theresa May is going to do a tour of European Capitals to try and get them to change their minds.

Does she still not get the concept of what the EU is and how it is a union and not just a place where she can go from country to country to try and place pressure on the EU.

What does she want them to change?

Britain decided this.

There, I've saved her the trip.

hill16bhoy · 10-12-2018 09:35PM

road_high wrote: »

So Tessie is off to Holland in the morning for more begging. How likely are the EU chiefs to give them even more concessions?

If she's looking for a bunch of tulips she should have looked behind her to where the ERG members sit in parliament.

4068ac1elhodqr · 10-12-2018 09:38PM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

I asked you did you view the 2017 UK General Election as undemocratic.

I also asked you whether you viewed the 2016 EU membership referendum as undemocratic, given that there had already been one previously.

You didn't answer either question.

I asked you whether you consider both to be of equal comparable status. (I.e. there is no need for anyone to anwser silly non-comparable questions).

You didn't answer this question.

Which is faster: something going very fast, or something that isn't going slow?

Water John · 10-12-2018 09:39PM

Nick Robinson giving Tory Cabinet Minister an easy ride but cutting the Labour contributor, BBC hasn't changed even on this disastrous day.

hill16bhoy · 10-12-2018 09:47PM

Douglas Thoughtless Headache wrote: »

I asked you whether you consider both to be of equal comparable status. (I.e. there is no need for anyone to anwser silly non-comparable questions).

You didn't answer this question.

Which is faster: something going very fast, or something that isn't going slow?

The exact same logic applies to both.

The only question is whether they were democratic. They were. As would be another referendum.

Earlier on you talked about general elections "within a normal cycle" being democratic.

Loads of general elections have taken place outside of a "normal cycle", both here and in the UK.

In the UK's case, 1951 (20 months after the previous one) 1966 (17 months), October 1974 (8 months) and 2017 (25 months) all took place outside the "normal cycle".

We had three general elections in 20 months here in 1981/82.

Presumably you feel all those elections were undemocratic.

They weren't.

Hurrache · 10-12-2018 09:47PM

Water John wrote: »

Nick Robinson giving Tory Cabinet Minister an easy ride but cutting the Labour contributor, BBC hasn't changed even on this disastrous day.

You watching Brexit, What Next? on BBC? A 2 minute piece on 6.1 News with Tony Connolly has more bite, insight and analysis.

Call me Al · 10-12-2018 09:50PM

Katya Adler on BBC just now reporting from (i think) Brussels. Quite blunt in her assessment and observations. The EU want a comprehensive trade deal and to that end the EU 27 leaders will come together this weekend to see what way they can do or say reassure to UK govt about. But the UK government cannot expect the EU to favour a leaving nation over an existing member i.e. Ireland.

4068ac1elhodqr · 10-12-2018 09:53PM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

The only question is whether they were democratic. .

Zzzz, yes, both democratic, so then respect the decision maybe?

The actual question was regarding the time periods for difference election classifications and ultimately scales of mass significance.

By your logic, every country in the EU should have a membership ref vote roughly every 2yrs. Messy times I forsee, sure you'd wreck the place.

Not being funny, but maybe have a nice cup of coco and a rest, else get to work on the (now overdue) 2014 Scotish Inde Ref, thanks kindly.

A Dub in Glasgo · 10-12-2018 09:59PM

badtoro wrote: »

Just on Scotland, how may they get another indy ref if they wish for one? Are there time limits from the last or other conditions?

The Scottish Parliament have already voted to allow the First Minister to request one but the Tories have stated they will not allow to take place (Labour have said the same)

Beechwoodspark · 10-12-2018 10:01PM

The hard brexiteers will not be satisfied until they cause themselves and their country deep harm and then of course it will be “Brussels” fault.

road_high · 10-12-2018 10:05PM

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Also, C4 news stated that the cost of NI annually was less that cost of EU membership. I've never heard that one before.

But EU membership is good value as you get huge market access and free trade in return etc etc.With the dead weight that is NI all you get an is a welfare black hole and ungrateful meddling from Arlene and co

Professor Moriarty · 10-12-2018 10:06PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

The hard brexiteers will not be satisfied until they cause themselves and their country deep harm and then of course it will be “Brussels” fault.

Or Ireland's.

MarkHenderson · 10-12-2018 10:08PM

Getting so bored of this now. The people have voted for Brexit. Just get on with it.

What an absolute disaster May has been.

tuxy · 10-12-2018 10:09PM

MarkHenderson wrote: »

Getting so bored of this now. The people have voted for Brexit. Just get on with it.

What an absolute disaster May has been.

What kind of brexit did they vote for?

Professor Moriarty · 10-12-2018 10:10PM

road_high wrote: »

But EU membership is good value as you get huge market access and free trade in return etc etc.With the dead weight that is NI all you get an is a welfare black hole and ungrateful meddling from Arlene and co

Get with the program. Britain must unshackle itself from the EU to ensure a glorious economic future full of FTAs all over the world and stuff.

Anthracite · 10-12-2018 10:15PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The Scottish Parliament have already voted to allow the First Minister to request one but the Tories have stated they will not allow to take place (Labour have said the same)

Nothing says 'democracy' like denying people the right to vote on self-determination.

dr.fuzzenstein · 10-12-2018 10:17PM

MarkHenderson wrote: »

Getting so bored of this now. The people have voted for Brexit. Just get on with it.

What an absolute disaster May has been.

Welcome back! I won't bother even learning your name.

4068ac1elhodqr · 10-12-2018 10:21PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The Scottish Parliament have already voted to allow the First Minister to request one but the Tories have stated they will not allow to take place (Labour have said the same)

That explains the embargo on the movie with Mel Gibson, sure it hasn't been broadcast on Channel4 since circa 2015.

Labour will say whatever suits the moment, when they win next year, it'll be free baloons, puppies and whatever else people ask for, until the money pot runs slightly dry.

Anthracite · 10-12-2018 10:27PM

An Claidheamh wrote: »

"Southern Irish government?"

Indeed. A phrase you could live your whole life here without hearing unless listening to British media.

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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