Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Rjd2 · 09-12-2018 08:21PM

This is a pretty bland debate so far, Cleverly is slick but this is a horror role for him tonight as he getting tore apart by the other 3.

Gardiner is not great either, a lot of waffle and does not seem engaged. Mogg and Lucas will be happy enough with their performances so far.

Enzokk · 09-12-2018 08:22PM

Just want to post this here, another example of BBC not challenging assertions made on their programs.

https://twitter.com/FaullJonathan/status/1071725140851998721

The reply from Andrew Rosindell was that his stats is correct if you include all trade within the UK.

https://twitter.com/FaullJonathan/status/1071743395985547264

Which seems weird to me if you do that, because then all other trade loses its significance as well. If EU trade falls from 44% to 10% or so if you include intra-EU trade, surely then US trade will fall in significance as well. All trade numbers would fall in that case. Lies, damned lies and politicians.

ancapailldorcha · 09-12-2018 08:24PM

Rjd2 wrote: »

This is a pretty bland debate so far, Cleverly is slick but this is a horror role for him tonight as he getting tore apart by the other 3.

Gardiner is not great either, a lot of waffle and does not seem engaged. Mogg and Lucas will be happy enough with their performances so far.

Lucas is making hay with this.

I wish broadcasters would blacklist Barry Gardiner. I don't think I've ever heard him say anything insightful.

kuro68k · 09-12-2018 08:27PM

amacca wrote: »

Any accuracy in the claim that a 2nd referendum would see a younger cohort of remain voters anxious to have their say........the ones who supposedly took it for granted the last time assuming a remain victory.

Or is that all poppycock!

Even if no new voters join in, enough old ones have died to reverse the result.

An Claidheamh · 09-12-2018 08:30PM

Pretty typical Brexiteer remark from that aul'wagon first thing on the show.

Claiming T M abandoning rights of NI citizens.

In reality, only citizens in North are Irish and European, or subjects, both of whom voted remain.

Wonder is she the same woman who reckons we're unhappy because "we lost".

flutered · 09-12-2018 08:45PM

the uk's biggest problem with the eu is, they were not running it

Headshot · 09-12-2018 08:45PM

Man I must of not been keeping up with the news, I was hoping May and Corbyn were debating instead we have the bloody likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg who I absolutely hate with a passion.

tuxy · 09-12-2018 08:49PM

Headshot wrote: »

Man I must of not been keeping up with the news, I was hoping May and Corbyn were debating instead we have the bloody likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg who I absolutely hate with a passion.

That one was cancelled and it's all a waste of time anyway, what's the point in trying to convince the public unless they deice on another referendum.

flutered · 09-12-2018 09:01PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Sunday Times reporting May is to delay the vote on Tuesday so she can demand concessions on the backstop at the meeting of EU leaders on Thursday.

Looks like the EU's solidarity with Ireland is about to be tested once and for all.

it was the uk who insisted on this particular backstop, barnier mentioned this

devnull · 09-12-2018 09:07PM

Have to say Labour don't come out of the C4 debate at all well.

Usual empty rhetoric from Gardiner about how the Theresa May deal is bad and also that the government is bad, they are destroying the country, bringing lots of non Brexit related stuff into it and that Labour will stop this happening with their own deal, without really saying too much about what actually it involved.

Gardiner also doesn't seem to know what the word 'deal' means either, so perhaps he should go and look it up in a dictionary, as he seems to think that Labour will just have to say something and they'll get it and they don't actually need to agree anything with the EU.

Other notable soundbites are Rees-Mogg essentially refusing to deny that he will start to erode workers rights. He also admitted that he would put the working time directive and maximum hour legislation to the bonfire.

All in all another fine example of how dysfunctional British politics is.

Rjd2 · 09-12-2018 09:14PM

Cleverly owns Gardiner a few pints for that, he looked the obvious punching bag initially, but Gardiner took the spotlight of him by been useless. Labour messed up by sending him.

Debate was ultimately pointless as I'd be shocked if anyone who watched that would have their mind changed.

briany · 09-12-2018 09:14PM

Probably one of the biggest Leave points was that the EU is an undemocratic institution in which unelected bureaucrats hand down edicts for the member countries to blindly follow. I suppose that this idea caught on so well because the average Brexit voter hasn't much knowledge on how the EU functions. Let's look at some EU institutions:-

The EU parliament - Consists of 751 MEPs. Each country elects a number of these. How many they get to elect is proportional to the percentage of the overall population that they constitute. Their main job is to discuss and vote upon proposed legislation.

The European Commission - Consists of 28 commissioners. Each member state gets to appoint one. The Commission has a president who is elected by the European Council. Their job is to meet and draft legislation that can be passed to the EU legislature so that it can be passed or rejected. A new sitting of the Commission must first be interviewed and approved by the EU parliament before that Commission can take office.

The European Council - Consists of each EU member's head of state. Their job is to set out the aims and future direction of the EU. They elect their own president by qualified majority.

The Council of the European Union - Consists of EU members' ministers and acts as an upper house to the EU parliament. Meets in 10 different configurations depending on the policy area being discussed, e.g. if agriculture were the issue at hand, it would be member states' agricultural ministers.

For legislation proposed by the Commission to become law, it must have a simple majority in the EU parliament as well as a double majority in the Council of the EU.

road_high · 09-12-2018 09:25PM

That labour guy was a wet blanket. Might as well not have been there for the Remain side and let Lucas do all the talking as she well able to do.

divillybit · 09-12-2018 09:40PM

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/my-marriage-is-over-because-i-voted-for-brexit-a4012066.html

With the Brexit deadline of the end of March fast approaching it seems that there wouldnt be enough time to organise such a vote.. I'm sure it would cost tens of millions to have such vote but why are Labour and the Tories are so opposed to it... probably because people would have changed their minds and vote to remain... better the devil you know as the last member of the audience said. It's sad to see the division it has caused and even relationships to fail like in the link above

J Mysterio · 09-12-2018 10:04PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

In fairness I heard an author of a book on Brexit mentioning a huge factor with the British is when though they won WW 2 they never actually felt they had as Germany, Italy and Japans economy boomed in the years after the war and Britain’s didn’t.

And that resentment is still there.

Peter Hitchens has released an Interesting book i intend to read: The Phoney Victory. He argues that Churchill has been overly glorified and his decisions have not seen much useful critical analysis. He argues that WWII cost Britain the Empire and is a 'phoney victory', a phyrric victory I guess.

I don't agree with everything he says, particularly RE Ireland, but he is intelligent and erudite in his own way.

prawnsambo · 09-12-2018 10:09PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Peter Hitchens has released an Interesting book i intend to read: The Phoney Victory. He argues that Churchill has been overly glorified and his decisions have not seen much useful critical analysis. He argues that WWII cost Britain the Empire and is a 'phoney victory', a phyrric victory I guess.

I don't agree with everything he says, particularly RE Ireland, but he is intelligent and erudite in his own way.

What was the alternative? Capitulating to Germany? Either way, the empire was gone.

J Mysterio · 09-12-2018 10:17PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

What was the alternative? Capitulating to Germany? Either way, the empire was gone.

Well, I havent read it yet, but I think the point is that resources weren't always used effectively and the national consciousness/ psyche is too invested in WW2 as a great victory.

I just think that angle is interesting in the context of Brexit insofar as the EU is often referred to in alegoric terms with reference to the war and the Germans 'using the EU to take over again'.

Leroy42 · 09-12-2018 10:42PM

Didn't get the chance to watch the C4 debate. What are peoples opinions of an outcome, if any?

From what I can gather from opinion polls and vox pops is that few people are changing their minds and if they haven't to date nothing anyone if saying, on either side, is really going to make a difference.

On a different point, I see the starting pistol on the race to replace TM has already started with each of Johnson, Raab and McVey clearly signaling their intent on the Sunday morning interviews.

It seems a long time ago now but at the early stages of this the tories were claiming that telling anyone about their plans, the effect on the economy, transport etc would be handing the initiative to the EU. Now it seems it is perfectly OK to let the EU know that whatever they agree with TM is worthless as she won't be around long enough.

Water John · 09-12-2018 10:45PM

That sub line up is fairly pathetic.

Captain Obvious · 09-12-2018 10:46PM

Water John wrote: »

That sub line up is fairly pathetic.

Well the opposition isn't up to much either.

Headshot · 09-12-2018 10:50PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Well the opposition isn't up to much either.

Yup while Corbyn is in charge the Labour party will always be in inept. Just amazing how this guy is head of Labour.

Folkstonian · 09-12-2018 10:51PM

I thought the whole debate was quite unedifying.

We know all the arguments at this stage; leave, remain, soft Brexit, hard Brexit.

Nobody is going to learn anything at this late stage. There’s nothing left that hasn’t been said.

I do think James Cleverley is an impressive politician though, not that it’s hard to stand out right now, lots of charisma and speaks well... even if I do completely disagree with him vehemently on May’s deal

dr.fuzzenstein · 09-12-2018 11:17PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Well, I havent read it yet, but I think the point is that resources weren't always used effectively and the national consciousness/ psyche is too invested in WW2 as a great victory.

I just think that angle is interesting in the context of Brexit insofar as the EU is often referred to in alegoric terms with reference to the war and the Germans 'using the EU to take over again'.

Unfortunate attitude from the UK. It is a bit of a joke in Germany that the Brits can't see past WW2. Only a Brit would say "two world wars and one world cup" to a German. This goes right down to politics and their "we'll never bow down to Gerry!" attitude.
As another poster put it, "we'd rather die standing up than live on our knees". What absolute drivel and exactly the kind of unconstructive verbal diarrhea engaged in by the leave side. Inventing a conflict that just doesn't exist.
I want to make a few points. First, I am really, really glad that Germany lost the war. Secondly, according to the Brits, they singlehandedly defeated Germany, but it has to be said that, well, no.
But aside from that, look at Europe. Germany, Austria, Hungary, France, Sweden, Poland, well, pretty much every country has fought with every country in countless bloody and bitter wars over thousands of years. Europe is soaked in the blood of millions and millions of people. I'm sure you could cover all of it in several inches of bone dust.
You don't find Europeans talking to each other about whatever battles were fought several hundred years ago.
If every European country hung onto old grievances or former glories like the UK did, there would still be perpetual war here. A Brit would mention the war (pun intended), but Poles, French, Dutch, Norwegians, Belgians, well any surrounding country never would.
That's not because they feel intimidated by the evil German standing in front of them, but because it would never enter our heads to do so. We don't forget the past, but we don't dig it up every single time we meet someone we've had a beef with. We'd get nothing done.
And it's not just evil Germany, many other countries had designs on becoming world leaders. Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, to name but a few.
Brexit came about because the Brexiteers live in a glorious past that doesn't exist outside history books and old movies shown at Christmas time where they bloody well showed the Hun what for and make no mistake!
They should try inhabiting the 20th century first and then gradually work their way up to the 21st.
I love and admire the UK. I've been there, knew a lot of Brits in Ireland and who wouldn't love their culture and definitely their music. And no one does comedy better. They have helped shaped the world we know today.
What surprises me is that this regressive attitude hasn't always been there, but right now it seems to be very en vogue internationally to be right leaning and isolationist.

ThePanjandrum · 09-12-2018 11:21PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Didn't get the chance to watch the C4 debate. What are peoples opinions of an outcome, if any?

I haven't watched it yet but I understand that most people thought that the two best "debaters" were Lucas and Rees-Mogg (depending on whether you are a Remainer or Leaver.

My money would be on Rees-Mogg from his previous performances but that reflects my own bias too.

An Ciarraioch · 09-12-2018 11:24PM

May Varadkar phone call this evening, also spoke to Tusk this morning.

Enzokk · 09-12-2018 11:32PM

Whoever Labour sent was in for a tough time. If your policy for Brexit is the same unicorns and cake that the Tories has been trying to sell then you will look like an idiot. There is no way they will get a better deal nor will they be able to negotiate it in time either.

The one person who may have stood a chance was one of their remainers like Keir Starmer, but seeing that Caroline Lucas was there already and she is more than capable herself they needed some deluded soul to step up.

FrancieBrady · 09-12-2018 11:33PM

Folkstonian wrote: »

Every country has opt outs in certain areas.

Every country votes in accordance with its own interests in the council and in the parliament.

Have you called out Germany for pushing extreme economic liberalism for the last few decades despite the deeply harmful impact this has had on many smaller, less wealthy member states?

Have you called out France for aggressively pursuing a protectionist economic policy despite a majority of member states publicly stating that this is not in their best interests?

If you are prepared to single out and vilify the U.K. whilst all other countries engage in the same activity, you are a xenophobe.

This is a thread about BREXIT the BR bit referring to Britain.
In this thread we are discussing the concept and realisation of Brexit. Having a huff every time Britain gets criticised is silly and pointless.
If you wish to discuss my or anybody else's opinion of France, Germany's or anybody elses contribution, open a thread on that subject.

hill16bhoy · 09-12-2018 11:34PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Unfortunate attitude from the UK. It is a bit of a joke in Germany that the Brits can't see past WW2. Only a Brit would say "two world wars and one world cup" to a German. This goes right down to politics and their "we'll never bow down to Gerry!" attitude.
As another poster put it, "we'd rather die standing up than live on our knees". What absolute drivel and exactly the kind of unconstructive verbal diarrhea engaged in by the leave side. Inventing a conflict that just doesn't exist.
I want to make a few points. First, I am really, really glad that Germany lost the war. Secondly, according to the Brits, they singlehandedly defeated Germany, but it has to be said that, well, no.
But aside from that, look at Europe. Germany, Austria, Hungary, France, Sweden, Poland, well, pretty much every country has fought with every country in countless bloody and bitter wars over thousands of years. Europe is soaked in the blood of millions and millions of people. I'm sure you could cover all of it in several inches of bone dust.
You don't find Europeans talking to each other about whatever battles were fought several hundred years ago.
If every European country hung onto old grievances or former glories like the UK did, there would still be perpetual war here. A Brit would mention the war (pun intended), but Poles, French, Dutch, Norwegians, Belgians, well any surrounding country never would.
That's not because they feel intimidated by the evil German standing in front of them, but because it would never enter our heads to do so. We don't forget the past, but we don't dig it up every single time we meet someone we've had a beef with. We'd get nothing done.
And it's not just evil Germany, many other countries had designs on becoming world leaders. Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, to name but a few.
Brexit came about because the Brexiteers live in a glorious past that doesn't exist outside history books and old movies shown at Christmas time where they bloody well showed the Hun what for and make no mistake!
They should try inhabiting the 20th century first and then gradually work their way up to the 21st.
I love and admire the UK. I've been there, knew a lot of Brits in Ireland and who wouldn't love their culture and definitely their music. And no one does comedy better. They have helped shaped the world we know today.
What surprises me is that this regressive attitude hasn't always been there, but right now it seems to be very en vogue internationally to be right leaning and isolationist.

The idea that a country or a people needs to be "great" is one of the most disastrous and appalling ideas in history.

"Greatness" implies glorious victories over others, that others will fear you and bow down to your demands, supremacy, an exalted status among peoples.

"Greatness" implies a perpetual state of war - if not actual war with weapons, a war of minds, a war of systems, a war for control.

That co-operation is an inherently bad thing and that geopolitics, humanity even, is a zero-sum game.

It's pathetic and we see the consequences today with Trump, Putin, Brexit and the far right all across Europe.

Instead of "Make Britain Great Again", it would be far more beneficial if the prevailing philosophy was to "Make Britain Good".

A good country is better than a "Great" country, or a country with notions of greatness.

Nowhere demonstrates that better than Germany.

ThePanjandrum · 09-12-2018 11:34PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

As another poster put it, "we'd rather die standing up than live on our knees". What absolute drivel and exactly the kind of unconstructive verbal diarrhea engaged in by the leave side.

It's a quote generally attributed to Zapata (although I suspect it went much further back) and I'm sure that it will have been used by Irish nationalists as it has been by people from many other countries.

There's nothing stupid about the quote at all, it merely expresses the conviction that some beliefs are worth standing up for at the cost of all else. I think that some beliefs are worth sacrificing everything for, don't you?

ancapailldorcha · 09-12-2018 11:39PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Didn't get the chance to watch the C4 debate. What are peoples opinions of an outcome, if any?

From what I can gather from opinion polls and vox pops is that few people are changing their minds and if they haven't to date nothing anyone if saying, on either side, is really going to make a difference.

On a different point, I see the starting pistol on the race to replace TM has already started with each of Johnson, Raab and McVey clearly signaling their intent on the Sunday morning interviews.

It seems a long time ago now but at the early stages of this the tories were claiming that telling anyone about their plans, the effect on the economy, transport etc would be handing the initiative to the EU. Now it seems it is perfectly OK to let the EU know that whatever they agree with TM is worthless as she won't be around long enough.

Barry Gardiner did his usual bout of spluttering and generally saying that Labour's Brexit will be everything to everyone. James Cleverly said very little of note. Lucas was impressive and I thought Mogg came in second though we've all heard this before.

The only thing illuminating is how Labour are still contorting themselves so as to avoid providing any opposition whatsoever to Brexit.

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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