Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Scoondal · 06-12-2018 07:33PM

The opinion of Irish people is totally irrelevant. The citizens of United Kingdom voted to leave Europen Union.
Does anyone here have a problem with this ?

Professor Moriarty · 06-12-2018 07:36PM

rdsopix wrote: »

1.- Doubt that most leave voters would like to hear that their vote was influenced by Russian meddling and lies.

2.- Not sure that Teresa May is just worried about her place in history books as the Brexit PM. Maybe it is her husbands financial interests, just like with Rees-Mogg and many other self-styled anti-establishment figures .

I wouldn't call Jacob anti-establishment. In fact, he is the poster boy for the establishment.

tuxy · 06-12-2018 07:36PM

Scoondal wrote: »

Does anyone here have a problem with this ?

If the majority still want to leave now that they know about the lies and trickery of the leave campaign then no, no problem.

Professor Moriarty · 06-12-2018 07:36PM

Scoondal wrote: »

The opinion of Irish people is totally irrelevant. The citizens of United Kingdom voted to leave Europen Union.
Does anyone here have a problem with this ?

Yup. Do you know why?

Scoondal · 06-12-2018 07:37PM

If the "remainers" were too lazy to get up off their backsides, that's their problem now. The people voters have spoken. End of story.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 06-12-2018 07:37PM

flatty wrote: »

A large swathe of the British public are elderly, bitter and a bit dim. This sadly is just a fact. The best of British are a match for anyone, and are wonderful people, but there are huge numbers of people of the type who complain that the Spanish spoil their holidays by not speaking English.
Wrt to teresa may refusing to directly answer a question about delaying the vote, I cannot ever remember her answeringq a direct question about anything.
If her govt put it to the people that the initial referendum was flawed by illegal Russian finance and interference, she would instantly be given a popular mandate for a rerun of the referendum. She will do absolutely everything in her power to avoid one, as it threatens what she perceives as her place in history. She doesn't give a flying fcuk about anything else. There will be a second referendum over her political corpse. That is all. She is an ardent brexiteer.

She’s a remainer in fact.

tuxy · 06-12-2018 07:40PM

Scoondal wrote: »

If the "remainers" were too lazy to get up off their backsides, that's their problem now. The people voters have spoken. End of story.

I don't think the whole of the UK should be punished because the remainers didn't run a flashy campaign based on lies.

Scoondal · 06-12-2018 07:43PM

tuxy wrote: »

If the majority still want to leave now that they know about the lies and trickery of the leave campaign then no, no problem.

Leave means leave. Simply, no lies, no trickery, the votes were counted.
NEWS : UK voted to LEAVE EU.
Do you live in a cave ?

Professor Moriarty · 06-12-2018 07:44PM

Scoondal wrote: »

Leave means leave. Simply, no lies, no trickery, the votes were counted.
NEWS : UK voted to LEAVE EU.
Do you live in a cave ?

Could you expand your argument beyond simplistic slogans?

Enzokk · 06-12-2018 07:49PM

demfad wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=n_wPxAd41js&app=desktop

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46460194

Good BBC Video and article (Finally) on the search for the source of Aaron Banks £8 million funding of Brexit: £2 Million to 'Better for the Country limited' and £6 million to LeaveEU.

The ICO referred the matter of the sources of Banks Referendum Funding to the UK National Crime Agency saying they suspected crimes had taken place.
Money for British elections must transparently come from the UK. Banks money allegedly came from a company called Rock Services of London but may have come from Rock Services in the Isle of Man. As the accounts for these companies are not transparent and the money is not coming from the company Banks says it was: crimes have been committed by providing False information to the Electoral Commission in order to use illegitimate funding.
The £8 million spent by Banks was not legitimate. To understand how serious this is this amounts to more than the entire official Leave campaign allowance.
The Russian ambassador to the UK who Mueller described as a central figure in Trump-Russia had met with banks and Wigmore several times at key points leading up to the Referendum. Other Russian officials met with them including a Russian spy deported after the Skripal poisoning. These meetings continued after the referendum at key points in Trump campaion (Day Bannon was appointed Campaign Manager, they met Ambassador in London day after "Bad Boys" Trump tower photo).
They were offerred Gold mining deals backed by Sberbank. Banks runs diamond mines in SA which are perfect for laundering money.

Potential Illegal spending by Leave campaigns to date:
Vote Leave to BeLeave: £1m Crime + Fine

LeaveEU/BFTCL : £8m Highly likely illegal source and Crime committed (regardless of Russian connection or not)

=£9 million.

This doesn't include undeclared benefits in kind by Cambridge Analytica to LeaveEU, or payments by DUP/VeteransForLeave to AIQ or DUP dark £1/2m

In a high Court case, This Oxford Professor alleges that the Vote Leave/AIQ illegal overspend alone was enough to swing the Vote to Leave. Thats just a million. We are looking at probably £9m. There is no way in hell that Leaves would have won without cheating and committing crimes.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-referendum-overspending-high-court-brexit-legal-challenge-void-oxford-professor-a8668771.html

It has taken the BBC long enough to start looking into it. But I suspect you will still find opposition to these kind of stories within the BBC. The links between Brexit and Trump and the Russians will make us look back in a few years time and just shake our heads. Nigel Farage must the most unlucky person to have visited the Ecuadorian Embassy just before Wikileaks released information on CIA surveillance programs. This was in the week that Trump needed a distraction as he was having a tough time domestically.

Hopefully all will become clear some time. It's still astonishing to me that anytime the spending is brought up the answer in reply is always, what about the other side? Surely in that case if both sides were cheating so much you have to declare the result null and void and run it again? I mean just because both sides cheated doesn't mean they cancel each other out. And that is to say that both actually did cheat in the same ways, which is not the case here.

Water John wrote: »

Really hope Ch4 go ahead with an interesting debate. Easy to be better than listening to May and Corbyn bore our lights out. Also, Ch4 more impartial and flying pigs will be shot down.

How could some one like Andrew Neil chair a debate? He took a good swipe at Carole Cadwallader, of Aaron Banks inquiry. Wonder why that was???

It's astonishing that anyone still invites Isabel Oakeshott on for her views on any matter when she wrote the book on Aaron Banks (Bad Boys of Brexit) and she sat on emails that showed how Banks has lied about his meetings with the Russians. Then you have Andrew Neil who as you say has been acting more and more strangely with his own personal views as time has gone on and Brexit has been shown to be a sham.

https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1070301697942151170

Anybody see this interview? The reaction to the Leave Means Leave chairman's
assertion on the dividend of Brexit is what many us must feel. The sighing, the eye rolls.

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1070094341681627136

Also, not sure if this has been posted but Norway has basically just told the UK to stay away from the EEA as they will be rule takers and not rule makers. Also if they do anything that breaches the agreements in the EEA with the EU the consequences will be for all the nations in the EEA and not just the country that decides to go its own way. This tweet says it best really,

Iand Dunt: "This is hilarious. "Hi guys, we're big fans. But could you possibly have your little breakdown over there and not catastrophically f**k our **** up too? Please and thank you."

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1070645428364955648

Call me Al · 06-12-2018 07:51PM

Scoondal wrote: »

The opinion of Irish people is totally irrelevant. The citizens of United Kingdom voted to leave Europen Union.
Does anyone here have a problem with this ?

To the contrary. I think the opinion of the Irish people has proven itself to be extremely relevant and contributed significantly to the pickle the British government finds itself in.
'Wrt your last line, maybe if that question had been honestly asked of those with significant interest in the outcome in any sort if a sincere manner (and by that I mean parties relevant to the GFA) things might not have evolved in the manner in which they have.

Scoondal · 06-12-2018 07:53PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Could you expand your argument beyond simplistic slogans?

I'm trying to simplify a fact.
The people of U.K. have voted to leave E.U..
That is a fact, not a simplistic slogan.
Do you accept democracy ?

Enzokk · 06-12-2018 07:54PM

Scoondal wrote: »

The opinion of Irish people is totally irrelevant. The citizens of United Kingdom voted to leave Europen Union.
Does anyone here have a problem with this ?

I do, because the votes were based on lies and the Leave.EU campaign was found to have violated the rules. So they cheated and we still don't know where the money came from that Aaron Banks donated for the campaign either.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 06-12-2018 07:59PM

Are these rules not violated in all elections. Does anybody think that no foreign money ever comes into other UK elections?

Tell me how · 06-12-2018 07:59PM

Scoondal wrote: »

I'm trying to simplify a fact.
The people of U.K. have voted to leave E.U..
That is a fact, not a simplistic slogan.
Do you accept democracy ?

What, specifically, makes you think people here have a problem with democracy?

Would you accept a democratic vote on the deal which Theresa has negotiated?

Do you think many people voted to leave because they were lied to about how things would be once they did so and now that the facts are known about real life implications of this, it is very different to what they expected?

Scoondal · 06-12-2018 08:02PM

Okay. For those people who do not understand.
In June 2016, the people of United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union. The UK government has set 29 March 2019 as the date of leaving EU.
Some here seem to have a problem with a government being answerable to the citizens.
These are facts. A good deal would be nice, of course. But democracy should be upheld because the stated opinion of citizens is the most powerful mandate a government can receive.

brickster69 · 06-12-2018 08:08PM

Looks like Eurozone will be getting the cheque book out soon. Need a big one like !

Deutche bank share price hit all time lows with the 5 year DB bond indicating a near 20% risk of default.

FT reports that up to 80% of Danske bank " dirty dealings " went through DB.

listermint · 06-12-2018 08:11PM

Scoondal wrote: »

Okay. For those people who do not understand.
In June 2016, the people of United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union. The UK government has set 29 March 2019 as the date of leaving EU.
Some here seem to have a problem with a government being answerable to the citizens.
These are facts. A good deal would be nice, of course. But democracy should be upheld because the stated opinion of citizens is the most powerful mandate a government can receive.

Yeah that's all grand but why are you trolling the thread with nothing but the same line every post.

It's embarrassing

Enzokk · 06-12-2018 08:13PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Are these rules not violated in all elections. Does anybody think that no foreign money ever comes into other UK elections?

Not to the extent that it happened in this referendum. Yes there was cases against other parties during the referendum campaign as well as documented below,

Electoral commission fines Remain campaigners £19,000

Remain campaigners have been fined £19,000 for failing to declare their spending properly during the EU referendum campaign.

The Liberal Democrats were fined £18,000 by the Electoral Commission, near the legal maximum fine of £20,000, mainly for “failing to provide acceptable invoices or receipts for 80 payments”.

“Where the rules are not followed, transparency is lost which is not in the public interest or as parliament intended,” said Bob Posner, the Commission’s legal counsel.

Meanwhile, the official Remain campaign, then known as Britain Stronger in Europe, now Open Britain, has paid a £1,250 fine imposed for not providing three invoices and for declaring some spending in aggregate rather than individual payments.

The Electoral Commission, Britain’s electoral watchdog, is still undertaking high-profile investigations into the official Leave campaign, Vote Leave, and another major Brexit group, Leave.EU and its founder Arron Banks.

Here is the report so far into the Leave campaigns,

Vote Leave fined and reported to police by Electoral Commission

Vote Leave has been fined £61,000 and reported to the police by the Electoral Commission after the watchdog found “significant evidence” of coordination with another campaign group, BeLeave.

The watchdog said it had imposed punitive fines on Vote Leave because it said the group had refused to cooperate fully with its investigation and declined to be interviewed. Its former chief executive, Matthew Elliott, had previously alleged it was the Electoral Commission that had refused to cooperate. Vote Leave called the findings “wholly inaccurate”.

So one campaign has been fined for not providing appropriate invoices, the other has been referred to the police. This is just for coordination between the campaigns and overspending, not for the source of the funds which is another case that has been reported to the NCA.

I don't remember any other elections having these kind of cases in the UK. We also need to think about Theresa May possibly blocking an investigation into Arron Banks by MI5.

Theresa May urged to confirm if ministers blocked MI5 probe into Brexit donor Arron Banks

Theresa May was yesterday urged to confirm whether or not ministers blocked an MI5 probe into Brexit donor Arron Banks.

Labour’s Ben Bradshaw wrote to the PM a day after it was announced the National Crime Agency was investigating the source of £8million funding Mr Banks apparently pumped into the Leave campaign.

It has been claimed security services were stopped from investigating Mr Banks in 2016.

Tell me how · 06-12-2018 08:14PM

Scoondal wrote: »

Okay. For those people who do not understand.
In June 2016, the people of United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union. The UK government has set 29 March 2019 as the date of leaving EU.
Some here seem to have a problem with a government being answerable to the citizens.
These are facts. A good deal would be nice, of course. But democracy should be upheld because the stated opinion of citizens is the most powerful mandate a government can receive.

Ok, I'll play.

imagine you and your family live in the following house.

Say I asked you did you want to move house. You and your family had to vote to accept the house or not even though it is not yet built. I showed you the following picture and said that you could have something "like" this after the vote if you voted to accept.

You voted to accept.

I went off and prepared your house and now it is time for you to move in to it. Here is the house which is waiting for you.

Do you think the vote should be accepted and uphold or would you demand to stay in your current house as you had been lied to about what you would receive?

Please stick around and give us some of the wide range of opinions that are missing here (but apparently exist elsewhere).

Scoondal · 06-12-2018 08:17PM

Tell me how wrote: »

What, specifically, makes you think people here have a problem with democracy?

Would you accept a democratic vote on the deal which Theresa has negotiated?

Of course not !
The people voted. Mrs. May ( a remainer) has negotiated a "deal" according to the wishes of her people. Parliament will now decide to accept this "deal" or to reject it.
Again I say, Brexit is not complicated. UK will leave EU.
I will be celebrating on 30 March because I want less UK influence in Ireland.

bilston · 06-12-2018 08:18PM

Scoondal wrote: »

Okay. For those people who do not understand.
In June 2016, the people of United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union. The UK government has set 29 March 2019 as the date of leaving EU.
Some here seem to have a problem with a government being answerable to the citizens.
These are facts. A good deal would be nice, of course. But democracy should be upheld because the stated opinion of citizens is the most powerful mandate a government can receive.

The stated opinion of 17.3 million citizens on one given day, as opposed to the opinion of the 16.1 million citizens on one particular given whose opinion now is completely irrelevant.

I'm also fed up with the term "the will of the people"...no it's the will of some of the people.

While I'm here a guy from You Gov was on the radio about an hour ago commenting on a You Gov poll which showed that out of 20,000 respondents across every GB constituency, out of three choices, Remain, May Deal and No Deal, 600 seats gave Remain as first preference. The BBC presenter started the interview by saying something along the lines of...let's ignore the Remain option as it's irrelevant...no it's not fecking irrelevant, it's common fecking sense...

An Ciarraioch · 06-12-2018 08:22PM

bilston wrote: »

Scoondal wrote: »

Okay. For those people who do not understand.
In June 2016, the people of United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union. The UK government has set 29 March 2019 as the date of leaving EU.
Some here seem to have a problem with a government being answerable to the citizens.
These are facts. A good deal would be nice, of course. But democracy should be upheld because the stated opinion of citizens is the most powerful mandate a government can receive.

The stated opinion of 17.3 million citizens on one given day, as opposed to the opinion of the 16.1 million citizens on one particular given whose opinion now is completely irrelevant.

I'm also fed up with the term "the will of the people"...no it's the will of some of the people.

While I'm here a guy from You Gov was on the radio about an hour ago commenting on a You Gov poll which showed that out of 20,000 respondents across every GB constituency, out of three choices, Remain, May Deal and No Deal, 600 seats gave Remain as first preference. The BBC presenter started the interview by saying something along the lines of...let's ignore the Remain option as it's irrelevant...no it's not fecking irrelevant, it's common fecking sense...

Two standout stats - 30% of Labour voters support Leave (same as 2016), only 19% of Tories are Remain.

Tell me how · 06-12-2018 08:22PM

Scoondal wrote: »

Of course not !
The people voted. Mrs. May ( a remainer) has negotiated a "deal" according to the wishes of her people. Parliament will now decide to accept this "deal" or to reject it.
Again I say, Brexit is not complicated. UK will leave EU.
I will be celebrating on 30 March because I want less UK influence in Ireland.

Good luck. I won't be engaging again unless I see you make reasonable points.

bilston · 06-12-2018 08:23PM

Not sure if it's from the same poll as above but on 14/15 Nov a You Gov poll gave Remain 55% and Leave 45%...once you start getting consistent polls showing 55%+ for Remain then surely a second referendum has to be seriously considered.

Infini · 06-12-2018 08:26PM

Scoondal wrote: »

The opinion of Irish people is totally irrelevant. The citizens of United Kingdom voted to leave Europen Union.
Does anyone here have a problem with this ?

So long as your country still has a presence on our island and is causing us problems then yes exactly. Give the rest of it back and take the village idiots with you and then its a different story.

theguzman · 06-12-2018 08:29PM

bilston wrote: »

Not sure if it's from the same poll as above but on 14/15 Nov a You Gov poll gave Remain 55% and Leave 45%...once you start getting consistent polls showing 55%+ for Remain then surely a second referendum has to be seriously considered.

About similar to what was predicted post Referendum and then the true English patriots came out in their millions and voted to leave, people were too shy to admit being Anti-EU due to been cast as everything from a bigot, racist and homophobe. If there was a second referendum there you could reverse those figures as such an insult to democracy would only harden the resolve of the British people and it would be an even bigger No second time around.

bilston · 06-12-2018 08:29PM

Infini wrote: »

So long as your country still has a presence on our island and is causing us problems then yes exactly. Give the rest of it back and take the village idiots with you and then its a different story.

Who are the village idiots?

tuxy · 06-12-2018 08:33PM

bilston wrote: »

Who are the village idiots?

DUP voters

bilston · 06-12-2018 08:35PM

tuxy wrote: »

DUP voters

Well I hope that's not what he/she means, because it sounds pretty ominous regarding any hope for an all inclusive United Ireland should it ever happen if that's the prevailing attitude towards Unionists.

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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