Would you like to attend a housing protest?

02-12-2018 09:24AM

I saw a bit of Sturdays protest on the news.

One thing I noticed was that there were a number of umbrellas close to the front that were in the colours of Palestinian flags.

Now I'm all for a solution to the hight cost of housing but why do these protests have to come will all the other trappings of current political topics.

Keep it on the topic of housing and high rents and you might get more buy in.

02-12-2018 09:29AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I'm not talking about people who have genuine health problems so what are these other invisible difficulties ?

Not all illnesses are visible. Things like autism. It’s only in recent years that it’s had a name. Years ago, sufferers would have been labeled “slow” or “thick”.

A little compassion for those rather than lumping them in the same group as scroungers.

baldbear · 02-12-2018 09:37AM

Was Margaret Cash on this march? The likes of her really annoyed people who work and pay mortgages. There is a sense of resentment now against some homeless protestors.

suicide_circus · 02-12-2018 09:44AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I saw a bit of Sturdays protest on the news.

One thing I noticed was that there were a number of umbrellas close to the front that were in the colours of Palestinian flags.

Now I'm all for a solution to the hight cost of housing but why do these protests have to come will all the other trappings of current political topics.

Keep it on the topic of housing and high rents and you might get more buy in.

for professional protesters they're terrible lads for diluting their message.

handlemaster · 02-12-2018 09:51AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Houses for everyone, apparently it's a human right according to one of them who was there yesterday.

But of course the house has to be in the city centre and someone else has to pay for it.

Thats a house not a home request ? just to be clear

Mongfinder General · 02-12-2018 09:58AM

baldbear wrote: »

Was Margaret Cash on this march? The likes of her really annoyed people who work and pay mortgages. There is a sense of resentment now against some homeless protestors.

I think the mood of the nation has turned in the past year from acknowledging that there is a housing shortage in some areas to "there are too many freeloaders jumping on the band wagon, so fcuk this".

Just look at the vote that Casey got. That was borne from the complete frustration of the coping class who pay for everything but get comparatively little in return. Attitudes have hardened, that's for sure

02-12-2018 10:20AM

Mongfinder General wrote: »

I think the mood of the nation has turned in the past year from acknowledging that there is a housing shortage in some areas to "there are too many freeloaders jumping on the band wagon, so fcuk this".

Just look at the vote that Casey got. That was borne from the complete frustration of the coping class who pay for everything but get comparatively little in return. Attitudes have hardened, that's for sure

And another part of this protest I saw on TV was an interview with a representative of the traveller community, the traveller community had had a big presence it seems at the march.

This too would put a lot of people off joining this as there is a lot of resentment towards travellers right now.

doolox · 02-12-2018 10:55AM

It doesn't take a genius to figure out why housing is so dear.

1. Lack of skilled labour. Ireland dumped several 10's of thousands of building workers out of a job in the sudden shock downturn of 2008. They left not only for other countries but also for other sectors. Many plumbers, fitters, electricians etc moved into more stable and better paying roles in services and industry, leaving the insecurity and cyclical uncertainties of the building sector behind them, they won't be coming back in a hurry.
2 Planning slowdowns and delays and NIMBYism. People in existing houses and developments do not want new houses built beside them, many for good reasons such as historical inabilities of local government to increase the size and capacity of roads, schools, clinics, parks, libraries etc to match the new increased size of a particular location. Planning in general is a lot slower in Ireland than in many other countries.
3. Increased longevity. People are living longer than ever before. This means that young families are facing a reduced Available housing stock as older people are in the houses on their own or in nursing homes for longer periods in 3-4 bedroom houses because they cannot downsize to more suitable dwellings because of the huge costs, risks and taxes involved.
4. Land being held up or not made available. This also is attributable to slow planning processes and NIMBYISM.
5. Rising population in Ireland. Especially on the East Coast which is the result of full employment and the reluctance of non working populations to move away from the high rent, high cost East coast to cheaper locations although I know of some older retirees who have moved to cheaper locations in the country others haven't citing health and transport issues as the reason why not.Other countries have a custom of people retiring to less expensive locations on retirement. We need to incentivise this to increase housing stock for working couples etc.
6. Neglect of apprenticeship roles in the building industry. Ireland is now a nation of almost unemployable degree holders as the preference for people is heavily skewed towards degree holding academically top heavy careers at the cost of having far too few craftsmen and manual workers to do the necessary building work. Unlike cars and consumer devices, robotics and automated building practices have not been developed or adopted in the building industry. There was no magic solution to housing as applied to cars the the 1910's ( Henry Ford) or to shipping in the 1st and second world war, Liberty ships etc.
Most other industries applied mechanical and electronic automation to increase output in the face of lower labour availability. This has not happened to the same revolutionary extent in the building industry. In fact the opposite has happened as individual houses have become more elaborate and higher specced at the expense of raw numerical output. We need more basic houses to solve a basic need for private space. This is not happening. Only high spec and expensive housing is being built, out of reach of most average people to buy.
7. Increased job insecurity and the "gig" economy. It is becoming increasingly common for many young people not to secure their first permanent job until they are in their late 20's or early 30's. Many do not get steady employment at a high enough salary to get a mortgage on a house near their work. Employers are now finding out that lack of affordable housing is putting a damper on industrial development as they cannot hire enough workers to fill vacancies because those workers cannot secure housing in their new work location.
8. Reluctance of central government to build social housing. The government have given up on large scale social housing as a strategy to stabilise and control the spiralling costs of rents and house prices. In the past we had huge social housing projects to meet a need for housing. This no longer happens but is badly needed now. The government seek to embed social housing "invisably" in existing private housing stock. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a lottery will take place in the future price of houses when the nature of your future neighbours becomes known. People living beside social housing units will suffer a reduced gain in the housing price and may even suffer a reduction as the knowledge of who is living next door becomes clear in time. I have experienced this myself in former local housing developments where there is good and bad roads on each estate, the good roads attracting higher prices than the bad roads. As housing estates develop and people maintain their houses ( or not) it soon becomes evident from the state of the houses where the social housing units are.
9. Dear fossil fuels. Most building work involves heavy use of machinery and concrete to accomplish. This requires copious amounts of diesel and this is not cheap. While on site machinery can use untaxed diesel all road transport must use fully taxed diesel and this is not cheap. Concrete making facilities face ever increasing regulation and opposition from environmentalists. Timber is also becoming scarce but timber housing faces widespread opposition in this country.
10. Insurance costs. The high cost of motoring insurance is also faced by building workers who face high loadings because of their jobs. Also it now impossible to insure often expensive tools and machinery which are constant targets for thieves and robbers. Also vandalism on building sites is a constant problem. All of this adds to costs of housing.Getting insurance for crane operations and scaffolding is a very expensive business.
11. Increased regulation and oversight costs by architects and engineers. While this may improve the standards and quality of new housing in the future it acts as an increaser of costs and a delayer of development when urgency would dictate a more expedient approach. While basic structural and fire safety must never be compromised it must be borne in mind that increased housing quality and consistency of higher standards means that people have to stay longer on the streets or in hostels and emergency accommodation.

The_Brood · 02-12-2018 11:14AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I saw a bit of Sturdays protest on the news.

One thing I noticed was that there were a number of umbrellas close to the front that were in the colours of Palestinian flags.

Now I'm all for a solution to the hight cost of housing but why do these protests have to come will all the other trappings of current political topics.

Keep it on the topic of housing and high rents and you might get more buy in.

Most groups with banners/messages, especially away from the front, had nothing directly to do with housing issues.

Several socialist flags with the colors and emblems of the Soviet Union. Not just "here are some ideas used in socialist discourse that could be good if applied properly" but straight out Soviet Union flags. Guess how that makes people from certain countries feel.

The organizers and speeches themselves were on point, so that was good. But yes, too many other groups present there had a "if you don't agree with us on all these issues, you are not welcome" aura....which was really off-putting.

02-12-2018 11:19AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It would appear that only 10,000 could be bothered protesting. I suppose that it wasn’t a bad turnout given the weather.

The French take their protesting more seriously......

Fordcspri23 · 02-12-2018 11:49AM

No hopers demanding a free house to house their litter of children that they make an income out yea yer winners for sure.

Ash.J.Williams · 02-12-2018 11:52AM

i don't have a house because despite working hard and having a decent job i'm not the smartest when it comes to money....however on the news last night i saw the protest footage and they reckon we should all have houses...that seems like a realistic outcome

02-12-2018 12:01PM

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

i don't have a house because despite working hard and having a decent job i'm not the smartest when it comes to money....however on the news last night i saw the protest footage and they reckon we should all have houses...that seems like a realistic outcome

Of course you can have a house. Where would you like it? How many rooms? How big a garden? Might have to hire a gardener for you. And maybe a housekeeper.

Ash.J.Williams · 02-12-2018 12:05PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course you can have a house. Where would you like it? How many rooms? How big a garden? Might have to hire a gardener for you. And maybe a housekeeper.

I know it's great, I'd like 4 beds for me little angles, definitely a house keeper and most importantly it must be near me mams or ill throw a strop.

02-12-2018 12:10PM

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I know it's great, I'd like 4 beds for me little angles, definitely a house keeper and most importantly it must be near me mams or ill throw a strop.

I’m sure that the Robbin gubberment will do all dey can to care for your little angles GBT. How about a few acres for da hoss?

stateofflux · 02-12-2018 12:23PM

Any housing related protest is a good thing.

Despite the section of protest looking for free houses..there is a bigger picture which would benefit all

Current govt housing strategy is not working.. they need a good kick up the hole from somewhere...anywhere.. it feels the only class being catered for is very high earners

Also stop going on with the dole scrouger arguments with 5% unemployment..its a drop in the ocean just like the govt spin 'fraud' saving annoucements..they are spending more of our money on private UK activation firms at the moment.

Social housing is required for lower classes

should it be palatial and smack bang in the city centre? Of course not

Is it needed? ...yes

Will there be useless leeches getting a free gaff? Yes but they need to live somewhere...

once its not beside my gaff i worked my ass off for.

Mad_maxx · 02-12-2018 12:54PM

Mongfinder General wrote: »

I think the mood of the nation has turned in the past year from acknowledging that there is a housing shortage in some areas to "there are too many freeloaders jumping on the band wagon, so fcuk this".

Just look at the vote that Casey got. That was borne

from the complete frustration of the coping class who pay for everything but get comparatively little in return. Attitudes have hardened, that's for sure

No the Peter casey vote was specifically about travellers, long before the broader issue of the squeezed middle became a thing, travellers were running amok and all we got from media was romantic eulogising.

Old diesel · 02-12-2018 12:54PM

doolox wrote: »

It doesn't take a genius to figure out why housing is so dear.

1. Lack of skilled labour. Ireland dumped several 10's of thousands of building workers out of a job in the sudden shock downturn of 2008. They left not only for other countries but also for other sectors. Many plumbers, fitters, electricians etc moved into more stable and better paying roles in services and industry, leaving the insecurity and cyclical uncertainties of the building sector behind them, they won't be coming back in a hurry.
2 Planning slowdowns and delays and NIMBYism. People in existing houses and developments do not want new houses built beside them, many for good reasons such as historical inabilities of local government to increase the size and capacity of roads, schools, clinics, parks, libraries etc to match the new increased size of a particular location. Planning in general is a lot slower in Ireland than in many other countries.
3. Increased longevity. People are living longer than ever before. This means that young families are facing a reduced Available housing stock as older people are in the houses on their own or in nursing homes for longer periods in 3-4 bedroom houses because they cannot downsize to more suitable dwellings because of the huge costs, risks and taxes involved.
4. Land being held up or not made available. This also is attributable to slow planning processes and NIMBYISM.
5. Rising population in Ireland. Especially on the East Coast which is the result of full employment and the reluctance of non working populations to move away from the high rent, high cost East coast to cheaper locations although I know of some older retirees who have moved to cheaper locations in the country others haven't citing health and transport issues as the reason why not.Other countries have a custom of people retiring to less expensive locations on retirement. We need to incentivise this to increase housing stock for working couples etc.
6. Neglect of apprenticeship roles in the building industry. Ireland is now a nation of almost unemployable degree holders as the preference for people is heavily skewed towards degree holding academically top heavy careers at the cost of having far too few craftsmen and manual workers to do the necessary building work. Unlike cars and consumer devices, robotics and automated building practices have not been developed or adopted in the building industry. There was no magic solution to housing as applied to cars the the 1910's ( Henry Ford) or to shipping in the 1st and second world war, Liberty ships etc.
Most other industries applied mechanical and electronic automation to increase output in the face of lower labour availability. This has not happened to the same revolutionary extent in the building industry. In fact the opposite has happened as individual houses have become more elaborate and higher specced at the expense of raw numerical output. We need more basic houses to solve a basic need for private space. This is not happening. Only high spec and expensive housing is being built, out of reach of most average people to buy.
7. Increased job insecurity and the "gig" economy. It is becoming increasingly common for many young people not to secure their first permanent job until they are in their late 20's or early 30's. Many do not get steady employment at a high enough salary to get a mortgage on a house near their work. Employers are now finding out that lack of affordable housing is putting a damper on industrial development as they cannot hire enough workers to fill vacancies because those workers cannot secure housing in their new work location.
8. Reluctance of central government to build social housing. The government have given up on large scale social housing as a strategy to stabilise and control the spiralling costs of rents and house prices. In the past we had huge social housing projects to meet a need for housing. This no longer happens but is badly needed now. The government seek to embed social housing "invisably" in existing private housing stock. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a lottery will take place in the future price of houses when the nature of your future neighbours becomes known. People living beside social housing units will suffer a reduced gain in the housing price and may even suffer a reduction as the knowledge of who is living next door becomes clear in time. I have experienced this myself in former local housing developments where there is good and bad roads on each estate, the good roads attracting higher prices than the bad roads. As housing estates develop and people maintain their houses ( or not) it soon becomes evident from the state of the houses where the social housing units are.
9. Dear fossil fuels. Most building work involves heavy use of machinery and concrete to accomplish. This requires copious amounts of diesel and this is not cheap. While on site machinery can use untaxed diesel all road transport must use fully taxed diesel and this is not cheap. Concrete making facilities face ever increasing regulation and opposition from environmentalists. Timber is also becoming scarce but timber housing faces widespread opposition in this country.
10. Insurance costs. The high cost of motoring insurance is also faced by building workers who face high loadings because of their jobs. Also it now impossible to insure often expensive tools and machinery which are constant targets for thieves and robbers. Also vandalism on building sites is a constant problem. All of this adds to costs of housing.Getting insurance for crane operations and scaffolding is a very expensive business.
11. Increased regulation and oversight costs by architects and engineers. While this may improve the standards and quality of new housing in the future it acts as an increaser of costs and a delayer of development when urgency would dictate a more expedient approach. While basic structural and fire safety must never be compromised it must be borne in mind that increased housing quality and consistency of higher standards means that people have to stay longer on the streets or in hostels and emergency accommodation.

On point 11.....

Housing will have start meeting NZEB in the near future which is actually EU law based. This is to do with reducing energy demand for homes

There are actually sound climate change/emissions based reasons why we would seek to do this.

Reducing our fossil fuel use for example.

Indeed Its actually considered that existing homes will need to be retrofitted as part of climate change measures. Yes really

We might be better to tackle the legacy issues of people paying far too much for land and people paying too much for BTLs back in the day.

The Hugh Brennan model is interesting even if you don't like it.

He shows that very very low cost land from DCC, no development levies, a considerably reduced developers model and other measures can deliver A2 BER 3 beds for 170 k in Ballymun.

Because an NZEB home saves energy use - there is actually scope to subsidize the energy saving aspect to support our transition to low carbon efforts.

Housing is a long term investment - the house we build today is the house thay will make up part of the housing stock in 2068.

The reduce the housing cost and build basic thing gets thrown out a bit.

But no one has actually bit the bullet and put forward actual concrete proposals as to how this works.

Mad_maxx · 02-12-2018 01:00PM

Ireland is not geographically big, Switzerland has a regionally balanced economy, as does Germany, we need to invest in high speed trains and broadband, population is small but too concentrated in Dublin, with proper transport, no reason people could not happily live in Longford if they had a train connection to Galway or Dublin, I realise this would take decades to fully implement but its not like we can sit on our hands, the American corporations have little interest in the other cities so developing Galway and Limerick offers limited rewards.

02-12-2018 01:14PM

More space efficient housing needed, especially in Dublin. The semi-d with the front and back garden should be banned inside the M50. Should be made harder to object to new developments (the right type) too. These nimbyist “residents associations” need to have their cough softened a bit with regards to this.

Idbatterim · 02-12-2018 01:17PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

More space efficient housing needed, especially in Dublin. The semi-d with the front and back garden should be banned inside the M50. Should be made harder to object to new developments (the right type) too. These nimbyist “residents associations” need to have their cough softened a bit with regards to this.

As much as nimbys are a pain in the ass. It’s the morons in planning that are the problem. You’d expect the planning authorities to find a balance ! At least with schemes of one hundred units or more , the planning now is pretty quick ... all of those old business parks, particularly beside the luas should be rezoned residential! Possibly even some golf courses in my opinion , relocate Dublin port!

02-12-2018 01:29PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

As much as nimbys are a pain in the ass. It’s the morons in planning that are the problem. You’d expect the planning authorities to find a balance ! At least with schemes of one hundred units or more , the planning now is pretty quick ... all of those old business parks, particularly beside the luas should be refined residential! Possibly even some golf courses in my opinion , relocate Dublin port!

The members of Clontarf GC won’t be happy. They’ll be ringing up Joe Duffy......

Squatter · 02-12-2018 01:35PM

stateofflux wrote: »

Any housing related protest is a good thing.

Despite the section of protest looking for free houses..there is a bigger picture which would benefit all

Social housing is required for lower classes

Not really. The lower classes are long past their sell by date, completely obsolete in fact. Other than being brainless voting fodder for parties of the left, they are of absolutely no use whatsoever to the Ireland of the 21st century. Plus they breed far too frequently.

If Leo was a genuine right-winger (as the loopers of the left persist in claiming that he is) then he'd be sending them all over to Montserrat, just like Cromwell (God bless him) did. But I'm not holding my breath.

Idbatterim · 02-12-2018 01:43PM

It’s the ultimate banana republic. We can’t even discuss issues, look at Peter Casey and the travelers. You think if issues can’t even be discussed , that they will solve issues that upset their voters and then their crony mates losing out? Lol! How long have you lived in this country !

Idbatterim · 02-12-2018 01:46PM

Squatter wrote: »

Not really. The lower classes are long past their sell by date, completely obsolete in fact. Other than being brainless voting fodder for parties of the left, they are of absolutely no use whatsoever to the Ireland of the 21st century. Plus they breed far too frequently.

If Leo was a genuine right-winger (as the loopers of the left persist in claiming that he is) then he'd be sending them all over to Montserrat, just like Cromwell (God bless him) did. But I'm not holding my breath.

Leo varadkar is now centre left! Creeping further left by the minute!

suicide_circus · 02-12-2018 02:08PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

Leo varadkar is now centre left!

Leo is now centre of his own hole

P_1 · 02-12-2018 02:11PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

Leo varadkar is now centre left! Creeping further left by the minute!

He is in his Shiite Muslim.

Hes a neoliberal shill

Galwayguy35 · 02-12-2018 03:25PM

stateofflux wrote: »

Any housing related protest is a good thing.

Despite the section of protest looking for free houses..there is a bigger picture which would benefit all

Current govt housing strategy is not working.. they need a good kick up the hole from somewhere...anywhere.. it feels the only class being catered for is very high earners

Also stop going on with the dole scrouger arguments with 5% unemployment..its a drop in the ocean just like the govt spin 'fraud' saving annoucements..they are spending more of our money on private UK activation firms at the moment.

Social housing is required for lower classes

should it be palatial and smack bang in the city centre? Of course not

Is it needed? ...yes

Will there be useless leeches getting a free gaff? Yes but they need to live somewhere...

once its not beside my gaff i worked my ass off for.

It's always popular to beat down on the high earners but they do pay most of the tax to fund the leeches you mentioned elsewhere in your post.

What's the point in people getting a well paid job if they are going to get hammered on tax for the rest of their lives which is what's happening to anyone earning over 35 k a year.

And then they see M Cash getting 50 k and a free house for lying on her back.

BlackandGreen · 02-12-2018 03:35PM

Alright lads.
I'll give my take on the protest.

So I arrived yesterday about half 1. At the top of o'connell street and around the ambassador there was the usual, various people handing out leaflets. Nothing extravagant. Mostly from each group that attended.

A couple of people selling socialist newspapers for €2

There was a good buzz around. The march kicked off, and you had all the main political parties heading the front. SF, Greens, Labour, Then you had SIPTU and a couple unions joining in.

At the front of the SF march was mary lou. Not going to lie lads, she's fairly intimidating looking in person.
SF and some groups were giving speeches. Standard stuff, just talking about how leo is a coward and FG are failing the people of Ireland yada yada.

As much as I dislike SIPTU, I believe unions are important because they represent actual working people, so it was nice to see some representation from unions, and FORSA was there too.

So far the crowd around seemed fairly, middle class, people ranging from late 20's - 50's.

Then you had the various groups like, PBP, Communist part of Ireland and others I forget.
PBP were a bit...ehh...OTT to say the least, young enough looking bunch.

Lots of student representation from this point on. Sorry I don't remember the group names. Mostly student unions and different colleges.

Then towards the rear of the protest you the Social Democrats and a couple other groups I forget. Mostly represented by average middle class looking people.

Then you had ROSA the social feminist movement. They looked like a groovy bunch. They were playing pretty awesome music, like, old 70's psychedelic rock.
Last you had the Dublin Tenants Association. Small bunch.

I stayed at the back and watched as it went down from parnell square onto o'connel street. I have to say it was impressive seeing the whole street filled with people all the way down past the spire and onto o'connell bridge.

Myself and probably a couple hundred people not affiliated with any group trailed behind.

Gardai presence was minimal, saw maybe 10 guards in total and a couple of dublin bus inspectors. There was no trouble what so ever.

Down at City Hall, I missed the first few speeches but there was just a truck trailer with a couple of speakers. Each group kinda made generic speeches, shouting nonsense. One girl in particular, a student from waterford gave a good speech about student rent.
Then some clown got on stage with a guitar and made a fool of himself.

After people kind of just stopped paying attention and the crowd dissipated within 30 minutes.

Oh, I should also mention some ****in eejit from DCC drove a street sweeper through the middle of the crowd. It was ridiculous.

I was surprised at the type of crowd throughout the entire protest. Most of the people there seemed fairly average joe/jane soap. student, or very hippy like, for lack of better word.
The amount of rough Margaret Cash types was minimal. There was a few but honestly everyone there seemed fairly normal.

From the way the media were reporting all this TBTC stuff I thought it was going to be a much more agitated crowd. I thought there's be loads of scroungers. But it didn't seem that way.

I would have estimated maybe 5000 but they're saying 10'000. I'm not good at judging so i haven't a clue either way.

tl:dr - went to protest, mingled, was surprised at the kind of people attending, surprised by lack of scroungers and mgt cash types, no trouble, mostly ****e speeches though.

Some pictures for you.

https://i.imgur.com/IJU2FEw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2unCTnf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KmjOqXg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9x3d5pj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VS8v9yd.jpg

BlackandGreen · 02-12-2018 03:41PM

As for why I was there myself, I'll re-iterate.

I was there not affiliated with any group. Just there to represent myself a tax payer working in a skilled industry, who is being affected by this crisis.
I think it's important to make a stand no matter what group you fall into. I don't agree with all or most of the groups that attended but, I attended as a lot of others did.
Merely followers angry at FG for some reason or another.

Protesting is an important democratic process and I was glad to be part of it. Ye should go see it yourselves lads sometime lads. It was an interesting day out all the same. Not like I had anything else to do.

And as business went on as usual on o'connell street I managed to get some lovely donuts and tea. Jesus they were to die for

Would you like to attend a housing protest?

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