Immigrant Caravan's WTF?!

wexie · 05-11-2018 11:13pm

mammajamma wrote: »

S
And again, there wont be any "proof" of numbers because where are you going to get them? Observed reality in seeing videos of the caravans are good enough to say that there will probably be lots. Unless you want to personally go down and do a head count hour to hour.

You don't actually believe there's no surveillance on these caravans do you?

And if there isn't, do you think perhaps it might be because they aren't seen as a threat by anyone?

tigerboon · 05-11-2018 11:14pm

shady acres wrote: »

MOD Deleted

Those Austrians weren't exactly the model immigrants for Germany either. There'd be at least 6 million more "white" citizens in Europe if he stayed in his own country

mammajamma · 05-11-2018 11:18pm

wexie wrote: »

You don't actually believe there's no surveillance on these caravans do you?

And if there isn't, do you think perhaps it might be because they aren't seen as a threat by anyone?

It is quite obvious there are forces opposing each other at play here, otherwise the numbers would be fairly clear cut, not "oh its nothing" upto "thousands upon thousands!"

Can you use your eyes and come to the conclusion that it isn't a small amount of people, at the very least?

You are positioning yourself to defend doing nothing. But why?

wexie · 05-11-2018 11:22pm

mammajamma wrote: »

It is quite obvious there are forces opposing each other at play here, otherwise the numbers would be fairly clear cut, not "oh its nothing" upto "thousands upon thousands!"

Can you use your eyes and come to the conclusion that it isn't a small amount of people, at the very least?

You are positioning yourself to defend doing nothing. But why?

I'm not really sure how you come to that conclusion, it's certainly not what I'm saying.

Unless of course you feel there couldn't possibly be an option somewhere between sending enough armed troops to meet them one on one and doing nothing?

Personally I think perhaps these people don't need to be shot as soon as the troops on the US side can see 'the whites of their' eyes.

mammajamma · 05-11-2018 11:28pm

wexie wrote: »

I'm not really sure how you come to that conclusion, it's certainly not what I'm saying.

Unless of course you feel there couldn't possibly be an option somewhere between sending enough armed troops to meet them one on one and doing nothing?

Personally I think perhaps these people don't need to be shot as soon as the troops on the US side can see 'the whites of their' eyes.

So what are you saying then?

What do you see as solution to the potential mass movement of people toward the border of a country, who have the gall to start suing the government of said country on the grounds of stopping them entering?

Bearing in mind the precedent going forward of actions right now. Encouragement or discouragement for copy cats.

wexie · 05-11-2018 11:31pm

mammajamma wrote: »

So what are you saying then?

What do you see as solution to the potential mass movement of people toward the border of a country, who have the gall to start suing the government of said country on the grounds of stopping them entering?

Bearing in mind the precedent going forward of actions right now. Encouragement or discouragement for copy cats.

Take their asylum claims, get them through the system rapidly, if they are valid claims treat them as such, if they aren't similar.

What do you suggest? Shoot them?

What do you think the US can do about this without falling foul of the international law, the very same one they're talking about that says these people can't just walk into the country willy nilly?

mammajamma · 05-11-2018 11:41pm

wexie wrote: »

Take their asylum claims, get them through the system rapidly, if they are valid claims treat them as such, if they aren't similar.

What do you suggest? Shoot them?

What do you think the US can do about this without falling foul of the international law, the very same one they're talking about that says these people can't just walk into the country willy nilly?

These people aren't going to claim asylum. They could have done that 20 times over by now, at various embassies, not to mention different countries. Some have started legal proceedings against the United States on the basis that they cant be turned away (how the F did that happen?)

So youre going to have to CATCH them as they try to duck over the border.

Now think about the precedent that sets. Just make a run for it, and theres a good chance you'll get through.

Now imagine how many others would be encouraged to do the same. I wasn't wrong in my first post, this potentially has an apocalyptic outcome to it if not handled correctly. And just letting them into asylum processes willy nilly is not the answer. How many will show up? More and more.

Honestly, if it were up to me, I'd just take over a large swath of mexico at the border and set up a complete and utter no-go zone. Just like the immigrants going across the Mediterranean, if the idiots hadn't enabled and encouraged it, how many people would have been saved from dying chancing their arms?

When common sense is ignored and ignored and ignored, the problem grows and grows, until you HAVE to do something drastic. That's where heart over mind matters, it has been so skewed in one disastrous direction, the swing-back is inevitably harsh. Its called correction.

Timberrrrrrrr · 06-11-2018 12:02am

mammajamma wrote: »

These people aren't going to claim asylum. They could have done that 20 times over by now, at various embassies, not to mention different countries. Some have started legal proceedings against the United States on the basis that they cant be turned away (how the F did that happen?)

So youre going to have to CATCH them as they try to duck over the border.

Now think about the precedent that sets. Just make a run for it, and theres a good chance you'll get through.

Now imagine how many others would be encouraged to do the same. I wasn't wrong in my first post, this potentially has an apocalyptic outcome to it if not handled correctly. And just letting them into asylum processes willy nilly is not the answer. How many will show up? More and more.

Honestly, if it were up to me, I'd just take over a large swath of mexico at the border and set up a complete and utter no-go zone. Just like the immigrants going across the Mediterranean, if the idiots hadn't enabled and encouraged it, how many people would have been saved from dying chancing their arms?

When common sense is ignored and ignored and ignored, the problem grows and grows, until you HAVE to do something drastic. That's where heart over mind matters, it has been so skewed in one disastrous direction, the swing-back is inevitably harsh. Its called correction.

So disregard the border, invade your neighbour and steal their land?

mammajamma · 06-11-2018 12:10am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So disregard the border, invade your neighbour and steal their land?

If people don't respect your laws and land, how long do you just play the fool? How many people should be let over? 10 million? 50 million? Literally everyone?

It comes down to dog eat dog. But some people just refuse to accept the harsh realities of the world. Been having too easy a life for the last long while!

Its the usual analogy, an awful, awful lot of people who push bleeding hearts, social media outcries, no borders etc.....its all rosey from a great distance. But how many personally take up the mantle?! How many will live beside it? How many will be happy with some of the consequences? How "cool" would they be if their daughter was raped or son murdered by the very people that forced others to accept? How happy are they sharing resources like housing and jobs and healthcare?

Its reality versus the bull**** life on the internet.

I think what really gets peoples goats is that these delusional people FORCE others to accept it, try to silence them, try to control their language and thoughts. That gets people pretty, pretty miffed

And the funny thing is that if people were more level-headed to begin with, then we could have a level-headed solution. But no, its turning into an extreme situation, and that will require an extreme solution.

mammajamma · 06-11-2018 12:14am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So disregard the border, invade your neighbour and steal their land?

Or a sharper way to put it.

You come up to my house tonight and try to break in, I'll show you reality.

Keep trying to do it, over and over and over? I'll be making a trip to your home to set things straight.

Manic Moran · 06-11-2018 6:52am

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Odhinn wrote: »

Yep, in certain circumstances.

Its not.

You are both right.

There is as yet no hard definitive standard for ethics. Evidently one of you is something of a deontologist, the other more a consequentialist.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

statesaver wrote: »

What does that have to do with Honduran immigrants attempting to reach the US?

It has to do with the comment that borders must be respected, the US dies not respect borders when it suits them.

Also it oould have plenty to do with it if the military shoot across the border at these people. Borders work both ways in case you didnt know.

Indeed. One might ask Jose Elena Rodriguez who lobbed rocks across the border, only to discover that Border Patrol officers’ bullets can cross it just as easily. But one cannot because he died as a result of this discovery.

Captain Obvious · 06-11-2018 9:33am

mammajamma wrote: »

So he should send in less troops than projected numbers. That makes sense.

Yes. Because the troops have guns and the migrants don't. And the troops aren't even allowed do anything. There is border patrol and ICE already there.

mammajamma wrote: »

It isn't so much the existence of three or four caravans of people, its the intent coupled with precedence going forward that matters.

Ah the slippery slope argument. Surely it's a slippier slope to send armed troops to take on unarmed refugees.

mammajamma wrote: »

And again, there wont be any "proof" of numbers because where are you going to get them? Observed reality in seeing videos of the caravans are good enough to say that there will probably be lots. Unless you want to personally go down and do a head count hour to hour.

No proof. So where are the presidents numbers coming from? Ah yes, made up.

mammajamma wrote: »

As I said to someone else earlier, its the logical fallacy of demanding proof that the sky is blue, when all you need to do is use your own eyeballs. Its weak sauce as an excuse to demand proof in these dynamic situations, and just so happens to be a useful dodge from reality.

What are you talking about? They can tell you how many people attended a protest within an hour but giving a legitimate estimate of the caravan is somehow impossible?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 06-11-2018 8:55pm

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Migrates are fleeing their own countries for a better life in mainly Westernised countries. Why not try to westernise their countries?

Central Americans speak a European language and mostly practice varities of Christianity. How do you want to make them more western?

mammajamma · 26-11-2018 1:42am

an update on this thread, looks like minimum 5000 have arrived at border (perhaps as many as 10000), already altercations with us military and local Mexicans, small outbreaks of violence, tear gas etc. Entire US/mexico border may be closed.

and here too. this is a bit sensationalised, but then again its hardly going to get better as more arrive, right?

Hey, maybe theres room in Donegal!

Captain Obvious · 26-11-2018 10:11am

Trump: You have to come in through an official point of entry.

Migrants: Ok, we'll come in this official point of entry.

Border Guards: No entry allowed.

Great plan.

26-11-2018 10:15am

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Trump: You have to come in through an official point of entry.

Migrants: Ok, we'll come in this official point of entry.

Border Guards: No entry allowed.

Great plan.

What would your plan be, out of interest?

Captain Obvious · 26-11-2018 10:21am

Deleted User wrote: »

What would your plan be, out of interest?

Process them quicker.

Spleerbun · 26-11-2018 10:30am

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Process them quicker.

Surely they should have been processed when they reached Mexico, and then if deemed genuine refugees allowed to stay in Mexico?

Captain Obvious · 27-11-2018 1:19pm

Spleerbun wrote: »

Surely they should have been processed when they reached Mexico, and then if deemed genuine refugees allowed to stay in Mexico?

If they had applied for asylum in Mexico sure. Doesn't sound like they did though. Either way, it doesn't justify firing tear gas at kids.

Grayson · 27-11-2018 1:32pm

doolox wrote: »

There was several episodes in history that mimic this episode in the details.

In 476 AD the Goths, Huns and other barbarians entered Rome after being on the borders of the empire for many decades. The leader of the Barbaric tribes, Oadacer, became king of the successor political entity on the fall of Rome.

A similar mechanism is playing out in the USA. The south and central american States are becoming financially moribund and dysfunctional. We only have to look at Venezuela to see what is happening there to see why many people are heading north to what they perceive as being a better life.

The fact is that many other countries, such as Ireland and most of Europe, have largely given up on the USA as being an attractive place in which to form a new life.

They prefer to go to Canada, Australia instead.

It seems likely that the USA will suffer a large influx of desperate and semi skilled fortune seekers who will out breed and out work the native population and force down the standard of living to a catastrophic level. Because of their high profile and global dominance the USA appears to be attractive to people from all the desperately poor regions of the Earth, such as Africa, South and Central America, The Middle East etc.

Inflows from these regions mean that wages and conditions there will be low for some considerable time to come. A similar situation will play out in Europe to the detriment of the high standard of living of the native population there.
You can forget about higher wages and standards in the first world for decades to come.

I'd suggest you read more about Rome. You don't seem to quite understand what happened there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odoacer

The people fleeing to the Us are coming from countries that have horrific violence. A lot of it is due to interference from the US and the US's war on drugs.

Finally, the low wage in the US is not because of migrants. Yes, migrants do very low paid agricultural work. However the Us isn't crying out for those types of jobs. Anyone there could get a job doing that work. The problem is that the minimum wage is horribly low. And that's due primarily because of republicans keeping down the wages.

antietam1 · 27-11-2018 4:22pm

Grayson wrote: »

I'd suggest you read more about Rome. You don't seem to quite understand what happened there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odoacer

The people fleeing to the Us are coming from countries that have horrific violence. A lot of it is due to interference from the US and the US's war on drugs.

Finally, the low wage in the US is not because of migrants. Yes, migrants do very low paid agricultural work. However the Us isn't crying out for those types of jobs. Anyone there could get a job doing that work. The problem is that the minimum wage is horribly low. And that's due primarily because of republicans keeping down the wages.

Can you prove a lot of the violence is due to US interference?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 27-11-2018 4:55pm

antietam1 wrote: »

Can you prove a lot of the violence is due to US interference?

Well, the war on drugs is a US invention and has caused massive violence in the region.

The multiple civil wars and coups in the region largely came from American interference.

Now, of course, the US isn't entirely to blame. But it has caused a lot of trouble in Latin America.

Infini · 27-11-2018 5:07pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

If they had applied for asylum in Mexico sure. Doesn't sound like they did though. Either way, it doesn't justify firing tear gas at kids.

In all honesty they shouldnt be bringing kids there to begin with. Say all ya want about the situation I hate President Troll like everyone else but some of them think they can just walk in and work not realising or caring that theyre illegally entering and all that waiting for them is not work but a prison cell and deportation back to their home country.

There has to be some level of sympathy for them but the only solution to these migrant problems is to clamp down on the source of them aka the root causes in their home countries.

Spleerbun · 27-11-2018 5:39pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

If they had applied for asylum in Mexico sure. Doesn't sound like they did though. Either way, it doesn't justify firing tear gas at kids.

I thought that was what the international law on asylum states, that you have to apply in the first safe country you reach. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I think they should cease to be refugees once they skip over safety in an attempt to get to a more well of country. That would be an economic migrant then

topper75 · 27-11-2018 5:42pm

Whether globalist Trotskyite types like it or not, countries exist and have a right to protect themselves from any kind of invasion. Absolutely their prerogative.

The caravan is built on the hope that if a lot of us are doing this illegal thing together that we will be given a pass somehow, and also if we bring kids that this somehow mitigates the illegality and creates an exceptional circumstances. Trump merely shrugs his shoulders at this play. They have only screwed up their miserable lives even further by moving north and stranding themselves in Mexico.

A message has gone out through the caravan failure. Will potential illegals heed it?

DEFTLEFTHAND · 27-11-2018 5:46pm

Developing countries.

Are they ever going to finish developing?

Spleerbun · 27-11-2018 5:59pm

topper75 wrote: »

.

A message has gone out through the caravan failure. Will potential illegals heed it?

This is a pretty important point. Precedents are important to consider. I would imagine if the illegal migrants from Africa setting sail to europe knew that they would simply be picked up and brought back to where they started, then more and more wouldn't be encouraged to make the risky journey in dingys. Instead they are picked up and brought the rest of the way. Rather ridiculous

Captain Obvious · 27-11-2018 6:10pm

Infini wrote: »

In all honesty they shouldnt be bringing kids there to begin with. Say all ya want about the situation I hate President Troll like everyone else but some of them think they can just walk in and work not realising or caring that theyre illegally entering and all that waiting for them is not work but a prison cell and deportation back to their home country.

There has to be some level of sympathy for them but the only solution to these migrant problems is to clamp down on the source of them aka the root causes in their home countries.

They shouldn't be bringing their kids? That's just an idiotic argument. Should they leave them behind in the country they are fleeing from? It's also irrelevant because the kids are there, whether you like the reason for it or not, and using force on them is just wrong, much like the policy of putting them in concentration camps.

Spleerbun wrote: »

I thought that was what the international law on asylum states, that you have to apply in the first safe country you reach. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I think they should cease to be refugees once they skip over safety in an attempt to get to a more well of country. That would be an economic migrant then

You are wrong on that. Also, I wouldn't consider Mexico safe.

batgoat · 27-11-2018 6:15pm

topper75 wrote: »

Whether globalist Trotskyite types like it or not, countries exist and have a right to protect themselves from any kind of invasion. Absolutely their prerogative.

The caravan is built on the hope that if a lot of us are doing this illegal thing together that we will be given a pass somehow, and also if we bring kids that this somehow mitigates the illegality and creates an exceptional circumstances. Trump merely shrugs his shoulders at this play. They have only screwed up their miserable lives even further by moving north and stranding themselves in Mexico.

A message has gone out through the caravan failure. Will potential illegals heed it?

Refugees are not an invading force. The US have signed up to conventions on refugees so they are very much so not recognised and have a right to seek asylum. They are not supposed to be tear gassed.

Tchaikovsky · 27-11-2018 6:20pm

topper75 wrote: »

Whether globalist Trotskyite types like it or not, countries exist and have a right to protect themselves from any kind of invasion. Absolutely their prerogative.

The caravan is built on the hope that if a lot of us are doing this illegal thing together that we will be given a pass somehow, and also if we bring kids that this somehow mitigates the illegality and creates an exceptional circumstances. Trump merely shrugs his shoulders at this play. They have only screwed up their miserable lives even further by moving north and stranding themselves in Mexico.

A message has gone out through the caravan failure. Will potential illegals heed it?

Except what they were doing wasn't illegal - they were going to an official border entry point to claim asylum. Do you think they would have been travelling in such large numbers, with the eyes of the world on them, if they knew it was illegal?

Regardless, their fate has only encouraged others to go the illegal route. Words can't describe how much I hate Trump and his minions.

Immigrant Caravan's WTF?!

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