Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Dyr · 25-11-2018 05:38PM

20silkcut wrote: »

Had to laugh at his reference to the new vassal state of “ukni”.

https://youtu.be/AjubxheN6ME

A BBC journo corrected him on twitter, about the Titanic, it was built in Ireland not NI, NI didnt exist at the time

LeinsterDub · 25-11-2018 05:40PM

Water John wrote: »

Not going to drag the thread sideways but Ozone is made by electrical discharge on dry air, no need for import. BTW it's what should be used in all swimming pools, not bloody chlorus/chlorine.

I don't think there is any way of disinfecting Brexit.

Poster 1:Ozone is easy to make!
Poster 2:How easy is easy?
Poster 1: Shut up I don't want to talk about it

20silkcut · 25-11-2018 05:41PM

Bambi wrote: »

A BBC journo corrected him on twitter, about the Titanic, it was built in Ireland not NI, NI didnt exist at the time

Who is the IRA sympathizer that he refers to at that start that he says he got rid of? Really playing to his audience with that one.

cml387 · 25-11-2018 05:42PM

When is the actual debate and vote?

I see from twitter that a gigantic television platform is being built on the green.

Itssoeasy · 25-11-2018 05:52PM

cml387 wrote: »

When is the actual debate and vote?

I see from twitter that a gigantic television platform is being built on the green.

The first or second week of December.

Shelga · 25-11-2018 05:57PM

She only has to get 320 votes out of 650 seats in the House of Commons- is that correct? Is that really going to be so hard to do? If 50-60% of Tories vote for it, and 40% of Labour, would that be enough?

SimonTemplar · 25-11-2018 06:13PM

If the deal fails in the HoC, I'm certain May will resign. She is backing this 100% and her position just won't be tenable if she can't get it through.

Nody · 25-11-2018 06:16PM

SimonTemplar wrote: »

If the deal fails in the HoC, I'm certain May will resign. She is backing this 100% and her position just won't be tenable if she can't get it through.

Doubt it; May will only leave the position as PM kicking and screaming trying to hold on to the table in front of her because if not she'd threatened a new election if the Tories did not support her or similar at this stage. Having said that once they crash out I expect she'll be kicked out in short order (because no one wants to be held responsible for the cluster**** that Brexit is); hence her position as PM will end most likely in April in one way or the other.

LeinsterDub · 25-11-2018 06:23PM

Shelga wrote: »

She only has to get 320 votes out of 650 seats in the House of Commons- is that correct? Is that really going to be so hard to do? If 50-60% of Tories vote for it, and 40% of Labour, would that be enough?

Labour are currently going to vote against it en mass as are 80 tories is the perceived wisdom.

charlie14 · 25-11-2018 06:36PM

Shelga wrote: »

She only has to get 320 votes out of 650 seats in the House of Commons- is that correct? Is that really going to be so hard to do? If 50-60% of Tories vote for it, and 40% of Labour, would that be enough?

Labour`s plan seems to be that if May fails to get it through there will be a GE. Difficult to see many Labour MP`s breaking ranks.

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 06:40PM

Labour UK could really capitalise by supporting the call for a people's vote. I can't make sense of their position.

LeinsterDub · 25-11-2018 06:45PM

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Labour UK could really capitalise by supporting the call for a people's vote. I can't make sense of their position.

Corbin hates the EU. Simple as. He wants out too

josip · 25-11-2018 06:45PM

Was Theresa May a soft Remainer before the referendum?
It would explain a lot of what's happened over the past 2 years if she decided to undermine Brexit from the front to the point where Britain ultimately decided to remain in the EU.

O'Neill · 25-11-2018 06:47PM

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Labour UK could really capitalise by supporting the call for a people's vote. I can't make sense of their position.

I really don't think a peope's vote is going to solve anything. In fact in my opinion it will make things worse. I honestly think we just need to see this nonsense out.

am i bovvered · 25-11-2018 06:48PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Corbin hates the EU. Simple as. He wants out too

Corbin is walking a tightrope.
He knows his support overwhelmingly wants to remain however he also knows that the EU is not supportive of his vision for re-nationalisation, they would block many of his plans.

Tell me how · 25-11-2018 06:57PM

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Labour UK could really capitalise by supporting the call for a people's vote. I can't make sense of their position.

They are woefully inadequate when you see the nonsense they have been coming out today.

Their Twitter account posted the following earlier.

https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1066708587857117185

The sheer audacity of suggesting she needs to ditch this deal and comeback with the deal which they have proposed is 'hurler on the ditchery' of the highest order.

The UK electorate should weep at the ineptitude of everyone who is 'representing' them.

devnull · 25-11-2018 06:58PM

Corbyn wants a general election and to get into power at any cost.

If subjecting the country to a no deal brexit is needed to achieve that he will do that, despite the fact that it will certainly harm the many and not the few who will benefit from it.

Any other Labour leader in history would have done it differently, but instead you have him. He's even worse than his predecessor, which is quite something in itself.

British Politics is at an all time low.

flatty · 25-11-2018 07:00PM

O'Neill wrote: »

I really don't think a peope's vote is going to solve anything. In fact in my opinion it will make things worse. I honestly think we just need to see this nonsense out.

Better to see it out from a status quo than from a palpably worse position imho.

Tell me how · 25-11-2018 07:02PM

devnull wrote: »

Corbyn wants a general election and to get into power at any cost.

If subjecting the country to a no deal brexit is needed to achieve that he will do that, despite the fact that it will certainly harm the many and not the few who will benefit from it.

Any other Labour leader in history would have done it differently, but instead you have him. He's even worse than his predecessor, which is quite something in itself.

British Politics is at an all time low.

I actually think he prefers being the leader of the opposition. No power, no responsibility, an army of fans telling him how good he would be and no one actually questioning his policies.

TheRiverman · 25-11-2018 07:09PM

Blunder on RTE Six One News,Kate Egan said almost eighteen months after UK people voted for Brexit.The referendum was June 23 2016,twenty nine months ago.

charlie14 · 25-11-2018 07:10PM

Tell me how wrote: »

They are woefully inadequate when you see the nonsense they have been coming out today.

Their Twitter account posted the following earlier.

https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1066708587857117185

The sheer audacity of suggesting she needs to ditch this deal and comeback with the deal which they have proposed is 'hurler on the ditchery' of the highest order.

The UK electorate should weep at the ineptitude of everyone who is 'representing' them.

I`m not sure how much nonsense it is.
Looks more like Labour getting their spoke in early with an eye to a GE. Vote us in and we can get this deal.
Nonsense in that regard, but not for what I suspect is the true reasoning behind it

Tell me how · 25-11-2018 07:16PM

charlie14 wrote: »

I`m not sure how much nonsense it is.
Looks more like Labour getting their spoke in early with an eye to a GE. Vote us in and we can get this deal.
Nonsense in that regard, but not for what I suspect is the true reasoning behind it

It's. f*cking. nonsense.

They suggested in the last week or so that there was time for a GE and for them to renegotiate with the EU before the 29th of March.

It's like telling a child that if they go to sleep now they can get up in an hour and watch television. It's embarrassing to be using such vacuous tactics.

Enzokk · 25-11-2018 07:41PM

Tell me how wrote: »

It's. f*cking. nonsense.

They suggested in the last week or so that there was time for a GE and for them to renegotiate with the EU before the 29th of March.

It's like telling a child that if they go to sleep now they can get up in an hour and watch television. It's embarrassing to be using such vacuous tactics.

What are they supposed to do though? They obviously feel that right now they cannot come out and state they want to ignore the referendum result. This is due to their leader being a euro skeptic and their MPs are probably getting noise from their constituents about Brexit as well.

They are in opposition and they should oppose the government. They are not there to make it easy for the Tories to stay in power. Unfortunately the path that is best for the country is no Brexit but that is very difficult to support for either parties. This doesn't make it right, just the way it is.

In saying all those things in their defence, they have been useless in opposition even with the open goal the Tories have been giving to them. This is due to their leader who seems to be in favour of leaving the EU so he is happy to get his cake and eat it as well. They could leave and he could be leader as well. Just another politician who will screw his voters for his own personal goals.

charlie14 · 25-11-2018 07:44PM

Tell me how wrote: »

It's. f*cking. nonsense.

They suggested in the last week or so that there was time for a GE and for them to renegotiate with the EU before the 29th of March.

It's like telling a child that if they go to sleep now they can get up in an hour and watch television. It's embarrassing to be using such vacuous tactics.

It`s nonsense in any reasonably functioning democracy, but that is not what we are looking at in the UK. Labour just look to having seen the nonsense that carried the Brexit referendum and have decided the same nonsense is a viable option if it comes to a GE

Econ__ · 25-11-2018 07:53PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

The backstop is still NI-specific; the EU has agreed to allow the NI-friendly terms of the transition to apply to the whole of the UK.

I don't understand what you mean here RE transition.

The backstop has two elements.

NI specific: Single market (for goods), The EU VAT regime and a full Customs Union.

UK-wide: Bare bones Customs Union.

FWIW, the backstop as is in the WA is very unlikely to ever come into effect because the UK-wide bare bones Customs Union is intolerably bad for the UK (they may as well flesh out a full Customs Union in the future relationship talks with the EU instead). It's designed for the UK to make a choice post 2019: Canada style FTA and modify the backstop to make it entirely NI specific, opt for a full Customs Union with the EU, or pursue a Norway+ deal.

Essentially, this agreement locks Northern Ireland into the EU's customs & regulatory sphere and allows the UK to kick the can down the road and delay the difficult decisions about the future relationship with the EU for another couple of years.

It's the NI specific backstop that the EU/Ireland were looking for all along via the backdoor. It's quite clever (and incidentally, an FT journalist suggested this route in July).

Tell me how · 25-11-2018 07:55PM

Enzokk wrote: »

What are they supposed to do though? They obviously feel that right now they cannot come out and state they want to ignore the referendum result. This is due to their leader being a euro skeptic and their MPs are probably getting noise from their constituents about Brexit as well.

They are in opposition and they should oppose the government. They are not there to make it easy for the Tories to stay in power. Unfortunately the path that is best for the country is no Brexit but that is very difficult to support for either parties. This doesn't make it right, just the way it is.

In saying all those things in their defence, they have been useless in opposition even with the open goal the Tories have been giving to them. This is due to their leader who seems to be in favour of leaving the EU so he is happy to get his cake and eat it as well. They could leave and he could be leader as well. Just another politician who will screw his voters for his own personal goals.

I think that sometimes parties (all parties, all countries) get too caught up in the literal sense of the term opposition. This leads to opposing what could be sensible policies purely because of a sense that they must object.

This is such a monumental event that I think that they should have offered to participate in a national governmental strategic group to aid with Brexit negotiations.

In Ireland, people complain about FF supporting FG with confidence and supply agreements and in September there was noise made from some within FF about calling a halt to this and angling for a GE. Micheal Martin said that a GE was not appropriate given what is going on with Brexit. While the true motivations for this may have been a belief that they were not strong enough to contest, I think it was better for the country to recognize the monumental events taking place.

I know I am speaking somewhat idealistically but it cannot be that the best people to form policy are always automatically going to be from the side which has managed to form a government.

Taking the literal approach in the case of Labour and Brexit is essentially hoping that it will be such a mess that they will be left in power as an outcome of it. That is not the best way to serve those that voted for you.

An Ciarraioch · 25-11-2018 08:10PM

Econ__ wrote: »

CelticRambler wrote: »

The backstop is still NI-specific; the EU has agreed to allow the NI-friendly terms of the transition to apply to the whole of the UK.

I don't understand what you mean here RE transition.

The backstop has two elements.

NI specific: Single market (for goods), The EU VAT regime and a full Customs Union.

UK-wide: Bare bones Customs Union.

FWIW, the backstop as is in the WA is very unlikely to ever come into effect because the UK-wide bare bones Customs Union is intolerably bad for the UK (they may as well flesh out a full Customs Union in the future relationship talks with the EU instead). It's designed for the UK to make a choice post 2019: Canada style FTA and modify the backstop to make it entirely NI specific, opt for a full Customs Union with the EU, or pursue a Norway+ deal.

Essentially, this agreement locks Northern Ireland into the EU's customs & regulatory sphere and allows the UK to kick the can down the road and delay the difficult decisions about the future relationship with the EU for another couple of years.

It's the NI specific backstop that the EU/Ireland were looking for all along via the backdoor. It's quite clever (and incidentally, an FT journalist suggested this route in July).

The Conservative MP Nick Boles is gradually realising what the only realistic alternative is - from "Norway for Now", he now admits that the UK would have to be a permanent EEA member, joining in such a way that a CU could be bolted on - the last step remaining for him is to accept that the backstop would still be in the treaty, even if rendered redundant:

http://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1066635582690992128

Water John · 25-11-2018 08:11PM

LB largely will back a Deal that has UK staying in the CU and SM. Problem for TM is that would split her Party apart.

Enzokk · 25-11-2018 08:12PM

Tell me how wrote: »

I think that sometimes parties (all parties, all countries) get too caught up in the literal sense of the term opposition. This leads to opposing what could be sensible policies purely because of a sense that they must object.

This is such a monumental event that I think that they should have offered to participate in a national governmental strategic group to aid with Brexit negotiations.

In Ireland, people complain about FF supporting FG with confidence and supply agreements and in September there was noise made from some within FF about calling a halt to this and angling for a GE. Micheal Martin said that a GE was not appropriate given what is going on with Brexit. While the true motivations for this may have been a belief that they were not strong enough to contest, I think it was better for the country to recognize the monumental events taking place.

I know I am speaking somewhat idealistically but it cannot be that the best people to form policy are always automatically going to be from the side which has managed to form a government.

Taking the literal approach in the case of Labour and Brexit is essentially hoping that it will be such a mess that they will be left in power as an outcome of it. That is not the best way to serve those that voted for you.

I agree with you that opposition shouldn't mean you always oppose everything the other one proposes. At the same time by voting for a policy from the government you will not get recognition if it is a success and if it fails you get blamed for supporting it. In a 2 party system as opposition you are there to oppose and that is where Labour is.

Akrasia · 25-11-2018 08:26PM

O'Neill wrote: »

I really don't think a peope's vote is going to solve anything. In fact in my opinion it will make things worse. I honestly think we just need to see this nonsense out.

If the problem is the UK leaving the EU, a 2nd referendum could solve it by voting to remain in the EU.

It's not that complicated

Will the brexiteers be annoyed if their party gets cancelled? Sure, but they're gonna be annoyed no matter what so screw em. If they get May's brexit they'll never shut up. If they get a crash out brexit, they'll blame everyone else for the chaos that happens afterwards and may even use it as a pretext to drive their supporters even further to the right

The kinds of chaos that would happen after a no deal brexit would be fertile breeding ground for right wing populists to drum up support

If the UK remain in the EU, they will have dodged a very serious bullet and the remainers won't be liable to take the EU for granted the way they have for the last 30 years

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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