"Man-made" Climate Change Lunathicks Out in Full Force

Pa ElGrande · 23-11-2018 10:06PM

dense wrote: »

This is what you're all demanding to fix the broken climate, right?
Sensible carbon taxes at last.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/households-face-3000-tax-bill-on-fuel-and-energy-to-cover-climate-costs-37550460.html

Hope you're all happy when it happens.
Self flagellation was always a thing with cults.

No government bureaucracy is going to say no to more tax it would be a very courageous decision by the ministers involved. Especially give the direction the wind is blowing:

France’s fuel protests show how poor people can bear the cost of fighting climate change.

Milestone carbon pollution plan rejected by Washington state voters

Voters Reject Several Climate-Related Ballot Initiatives

As usual the supporters of carbon tax think themselves immune to the repercussions of such a tax policy and even perceive that they will somehow benefit especially when their lifestyle is being subsidised by carbon taxes or did someone really think those car charging points are really free and will remain that way forever or that road pricing will be changed so you pay per kilometre you drive. They forget they won't always be in employment and there will come a time in their lives when their earnings will be much less and they will have to pay those taxes while getting no benefit from them. As usual those on the margins pay the price first and what little wealth they have is redistributed to much wealthier people.

90% of Irish people worried about cost of home heating this winter

SVP warn of growing pressure on middle class to pay bills

Winter bills misery with ANOTHER energy supplier price hike

Children in school today should be made to interview the people who grew up in 1950s Ireland while they still live and write down what day to day life was really like for people then because that's the future without todays energy infrastructure.

Denmark removed the corporate welfare for electric cars and Teslas sales collapsed.

After Tesla Debacle, Denmark Reconsiders Electric Car Subsidies

U.K. to Cut Subsidies for Low-, Zero-Emission Vehicles

Colm McCarthy: Electric car incentives face rocky road

There are only 4,000 electric cars in Ireland but the Government is cheerfully targeting 500,000 (out of a national total of about two million) by 2030. If this figure is achieved, the current reliance on motoring taxes will become unsustainable. There is no shortage of confident predictions that all road vehicles, including trucks and buses, will be electric as early as 2040. Last year, the government of Denmark withdrew its generous tax deal on electric cars because it began to succeed.

source

The cold reality for us who live on this Atlantic island is that we are situated between 51 and 55 degrees into the Northern hemisphere. Most of the time we get the benefit of the warm gulf stream, occasionally the reality of our physical location on planet earth does intrude and we are not prepared for it.

I don't worry about threats from EU bullies, politically the decade of the technocrats is drawing to a close and the cost benefit analysis for Ireland remaining in the EU as it currently stands will radically alter. Countries that default on their debts have much more to worry about than subsidising wealthy middle class peoples lifestyle.

dense · 24-11-2018 01:00AM

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Yes and tank the economy. Stop being so stupid. Nobody wants to destroy economy. The solution is to reduce emissions gradually, something which is already being attempted.

I'm afraid not, what's already being attempted is making no difference.

That's why earth scientists now say we need rapid emissions reductions in order to save the planet.

"IPCC: rapid carbon emission cuts vital to stop severe impact of climate change" -2014

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/nov/02/rapid-carbon-emission-cuts-severe-impact-climate-change-ipcc-report

"IPCC Report: 1.5°C limit achievable with ‘rapid and far-reaching’ emissions cuts" 2018

https://greennews.ie/ipcc-report-1-5-limit-achievable-rapid-far-reaching-emissions-cuts/

There's little point in talking about handy, imperceptible, and convenient gradual reductions, it's simply too late for these approaches.

The key words here are "rapid" and "unprecedented".

dense · 24-11-2018 01:07AM

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

No government bureaucracy is going to say no to more tax it would be a very courageous decision by the ministers involved. Especially give the direction the wind is blowing:

France’s fuel protests show how poor people can bear the cost of fighting climate change.

Milestone carbon pollution plan rejected by Washington state voters

Voters Reject Several Climate-Related Ballot Initiatives

As usual the supporters of carbon tax think themselves immune to the repercussions of such a tax policy and even perceive that they will somehow benefit especially when their lifestyle is being subsidised by carbon taxes or did someone really think those car charging points are really free and will remain that way forever or that road pricing will be changed so you pay per kilometre you drive. They forget they won't always be in employment and there will come a time in their lives when their earnings will be much less and they will have to pay those taxes while getting no benefit from them. As usual those on the margins pay the price first and what little wealth they have is redistributed to much wealthier people.

90% of Irish people worried about cost of home heating this winter

SVP warn of growing pressure on middle class to pay bills

Winter bills misery with ANOTHER energy supplier price hike

Children in school today should be made to interview the people who grew up in 1950s Ireland while they still live and write down what day to day life was really like for people then because that's the future without todays energy infrastructure.

Denmark removed the corporate welfare for electric cars and Teslas sales collapsed.

After Tesla Debacle, Denmark Reconsiders Electric Car Subsidies

U.K. to Cut Subsidies for Low-, Zero-Emission Vehicles

Colm McCarthy: Electric car incentives face rocky road

The cold reality for us who live on this Atlantic island is that we are situated between 51 and 55 degrees into the Northern hemisphere. Most of the time we get the benefit of the warm gulf stream, occasionally the reality of our physical location on planet earth does intrude and we are not prepared for it.

I don't worry about threats from EU bullies, politically the decade of the technocrats is drawing to a close and the cost benefit analysis for Ireland remaining in the EU as it currently stands will radically alter. Countries that default on their debts have much more to worry about than subsidising wealthy middle class peoples lifestyle.

It's not that simple.

The majority of people here are easily led, an example being the power of the church here for generations.

Tell them their use of peat briquettes is responsible for global weather catastrophes and they'll sit up and beg for more taxes to be levied to atone for their sins against the planet.

I would disagree with you about those on the margins of society being hit hardest with any carbon taxes.

Experience shows that whether it's fuel allowances or water charges, assistance, funded by the tax payer will be arranged for those whose usage of fossil fuels is the same as everyone else's. Their pollution will be paid for by others, thereby removing their responsibility for saving the planet.

Just as the treatment of their shït was to be subsidised by every one else willing to pay water charges, so will their environmental damage.

It will be earners who will be subsidising the masses of non earners who are compelled to pay Sky TV charges rather than their social contract bills, aided and abetted by their shrewd leftist ringmasters always just seconds away from threatening mass civil disobedience.

Akrasia · 24-11-2018 09:55AM

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

Here is a real example of a documentary that serves as misinformation and propaganda .

nobody on here has quoted or referenced 'An inconvenient Truth' in any of this debate. And even though that film did exaggerate some of the risks (through not referencing the timescales for some of the effects), that 'Great global warming swindle' film took the misrepresentation and blatant distortions of the evidence to a whole new level

dense · 24-11-2018 10:19AM

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Unless emissions are reduced. Reduce emissions we won't need to increase the carbon tax. The theory is quite simple to follow.

I don't mean to labour this point too much, but we have two choices. Drastically cut emissions or give money to the EU.

There is no public will nor is there the economic ability to make the necessary cuts to our emissions which have stupidly been agreed between our government and the EU.

This means we must implement carbon taxes in lieu of not using fossil fuels and reducing emissions and any funds raised from these taxes can fund the fines.

We need the taxes to raise about half a billion a year. Roughly 1.5 million households multiplied by the €3000 tax figure mentioned last week.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/penalties-for-missing-climate-change-goals-to-be-less-than-claimed-minister-says-1.3508293?mode=amp

Subcomandante Marcos · 24-11-2018 10:25AM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Can human caused climate change skepticism really be lumped together with flat earthists and anti Vaxers.

Yes. Yes it can. It has about as much scientific basis as the other things you listed. It's up there with anti-vax big pharma conspiracy theories and believing in chem trails or that shape shifting lizards control the world.

JJJJNR · 24-11-2018 11:21AM

The masses have been told to be environmentally friendly since the 1800s as a way of control, while the classes live an indulgent lifestyle. This is a modernist version of controlling how much wood peasents consume.

We need to talk about fukushima and the fact we are blindly entering into a mass extinction event, not how much natural global warming is down to humans. Ireland was in the last 10,000 years covered in ice which has been retreating since and will continue to retreat until we are living in an ice free tropical climate. When all the ice melts where does it go into the ocean and into the atmosphere, as water.
The deserts will be gone, the masses need to stop living the environmental lie we need to clean up this planet of course but lets not waste time and effort being blinded by the class lie that is global warming.

24-11-2018 11:34AM

JJJJNR wrote: »

The masses have been told to be environmentally friendly since the 1800s as a way of control, while the classes live an indulgent lifestyle. This is a modernist version of controlling how much wood peasents consume.

We need to talk about fukushima and the fact we are blindly entering into a mass extinction event, not how much natural global warming is down to humans. Ireland was in the last 10,000 years covered in ice which has been retreating since and will continue to retreat until we are living in an ice free tropical climate. When all the ice melts where does it go into the ocean and into the atmosphere, as water.
The deserts will be gone, the masses need to stop living the environmental lie we need to clean up this planet of course but lets not waste time and effort being blinded by the class lie that is global warming.

Wut.

dense · 24-11-2018 12:33PM

Paris police use tear gas and water cannon on anti-Macron tax protesters https://jrnl.ie/4358179

The public demand for more carbon taxes is going well.

dense · 24-11-2018 12:45PM

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Yes. Yes it can. It has about as much scientific basis as the other things you listed. It's up there with anti-vax big pharma conspiracy theories and believing in chem trails or that shape shifting lizards control the world.

Add in humans controlling the climate and weather modification to your list.

Pa ElGrande · 24-11-2018 12:55PM

Akrasia wrote: »

nobody on here has quoted or referenced 'An inconvenient Truth' in any of this debate. And even though that film did exaggerate some of the risks (through not referencing the timescales for some of the effects), that 'Great global warming swindle' film took the misrepresentation and blatant distortions of the evidence to a whole new level

You just admitted you rationalise the propaganda film using the noble lie despite the fact the ice is not melting at an enhanced rate, sea-level rise is not accelerating, and no systematic changes have been documented in evaporation or rainfall or in the magnitude or intensity of extreme meteorological events.

Lets see who else is riding the global warming train to advance their agendas, notice that the climate does not concern them, their aim is control.

In Their Own Words: Climate Alarmists Debunk Their 'Science'

In 1988, former Canadian Minister of the Environment, told editors and reporters of the Calgary Herald: “No matter if the science of global warming is all phony…climate change [provides] the greatest opportunity to bring about justice and equality in the world.”

In 1996, former Soviet Union President Mikhail Gorbachev emphasized the importance of using climate alarmism to advance socialist Marxist objectives: “The threat of environmental crisis will be the international disaster key to unlock the New World Order.”

Speaking at the 2000 U.N. Conference on Climate Change in the Hague, former President Jacques Chirac of France explained why the IPCC’s climate initiative supported a key Western European Kyoto Protocol objective: “For the first time, humanity is instituting a genuine instrument of global governance, one that should find a place within the World Environmental Organization which France and the European Union would like to see established.”

<snip>

IPCC official Ottmar Edenhofer, speaking in November 2010, advised that: “…one has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. Instead, climate change policy is about how we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth...”

source

batgoat · 24-11-2018 12:57PM

dense wrote: »

Paris police use tear gas and water cannon on anti-Macron tax protesters https://jrnl.ie/4358179

The public demand for more carbon taxes is going well.

Man, your points are going as far off the wall as possible, aren't they? Your point has no actual impact on global warming existing....

ricero · 24-11-2018 12:58PM

Great to see that liberal idiot Macron get his much deserves in France. Guy is a creep.

Pa ElGrande · 24-11-2018 01:12PM

batgoat wrote: »

Man, your points are going as far off the wall as possible, aren't they? Your point has no actual impact on global warming existing....

The lie is that governments can control the weather by extracting more from their tax cattle. The cattle should just stay in their stalls to be milked and slaughtered as the political whim dictates, while the climate alarmists work to make their worst predictions come true.

Akrasia · 24-11-2018 01:47PM

Here's where I stand on the carbon tax issue

1. It should be much higher
2. It should be income and revenue neutral

This means that the tax should be balanced by a payment to those tax payers equal to the average tax collected per tax payer.

If there are a thousand people and the average carbon tax is expected to be a thousand euros per person, then each person should get a grant of a thousand euros to spend as they like, and they pay their carbon tax based on their usage of carbon polluting products.

It works brilliantly because the people who pollute more than average are paying more than a thousand euros in tax and have a higher incentive to reduce their pollution, while people who pollute less get rewarded for being more efficient. The average person will break even but will still be incentivised to emit less carbon because doing so would be financially beneficial to them. If they are given a choice between a high carbon product and a low carbon product, all other things being equal, they'd choose the lower carbon product.

People can also choose to spend their grant to invest in energy efficiency so that their carbon tax bill is lower the next year.

The fact that it is revenue neutral means the 'government just want to increase taxes' brigade have nothing to whinge about. The fact that the bigger polluters pay more uses market forces to encourage them to change their behaviour and invest in green alternatives.

This has been tried in British Colombia and has been successful so far
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421515300550

Can any of the 'skeptics' on here point out the inherent flaw in this system?

This can also be combined with regulations on industry and capital investment to modernise national infrastructure.

Akrasia · 24-11-2018 02:22PM

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

You just admitted you rationalise the propaganda film using the noble lie despite the fact the ice is not melting at an enhanced rate, sea-level rise is not accelerating, and no systematic changes have been documented in evaporation or rainfall or in the magnitude or intensity of extreme meteorological events.

Lets see who else is riding the global warming train to advance their agendas, notice that the climate does not concern them, their aim is control.

In Their Own Words: Climate Alarmists Debunk Their 'Science'

Ah the joy of quote mining.
If you selective quote people out of context you can get them to say anything.

And not a single one of those 'quotes' debunks any science.

Its gas, someone can write a thousand page book talking about the urge to act based on science, and someone can take a single sentence from that book and misrepresent it to mean that they don't care about the science and it's all an ulterior motive to bring down capitalism or some other nonsense.

batgoat · 24-11-2018 02:37PM

Akrasia wrote: »

Ah the joy of quote mining.
If you selective quote people out of context you can get them to say anything.

And not a single one of those 'quotes' debunks any science.

Its gas, someone can write a thousand page book talking about the urge to act based on science, and someone can take a single sentence from that book and misrepresent it to mean that they don't care about the science and it's all an ulterior motive to bring down capitalism or some other nonsense.

Funnily enough, that documentary that was cited a few pages back that was claiming climate change is a myth created a considerable amount of annoyance for showing interviews with scientists out of context... So a scientist who fully agrees with consensus, would come out looking like they didn't.

Pa ElGrande · 24-11-2018 02:46PM

Akrasia wrote: »

Can any of the 'skeptics' on here point out the inherent flaw in this system?

This can also be combined with regulations on industry and capital investment to modernise national infrastructure.

In British Columbia's case the tax keeps increasing, the carbon commissions keep increasing and they dumped the revenue neutral illusion.

As for revenue neutral that's a lie that is demolished easily see when you buy that loaf of bread, you're paying a portion of all of the costs, including taxation!, of every person or business entity that had anything to do with that bread, from before the wheat was planted up until the loaf of bread ends up in that durable plastic bag in the back seat of your Mitsubishi Outlander Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

Have you thought about how much your doctor pays into the tax system to augment his or her employees' PRSI/USC contributions? And what about all the taxes your local medical centre paid when purchasing all of that sophisticated equipment, not to mention the endless monthly outlay for cotton swabs and tongue depressors? Make no mistake about it all that carbon tax overhead is distributed throughout the system in one form or another. All it does in increase operating expenses we still have to eat and we still get sick and especially in winter.

Pa ElGrande · 24-11-2018 03:03PM

Akrasia wrote: »

And not a single one of those 'quotes' debunks any science.

And that's exactly the point being made by said quotes, the science whatever is happens to be is just a prop they use to promote their self serving political agendas. In addition we see the same behaviour as the environmentalists use children as their shield to impose their doctrine on the population through the court system.

Akrasia · 24-11-2018 03:09PM

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

And that's exactly the point being made by said quotes, the science whatever is happens to be is just a prop they use to promote their self serving political agendas. In addition we see the same behaviour as the environmentalists use children as their shield to impose their doctrine on the population through the court system.

So environmentalists aren't allowed recourse to the courts system then?

It's sad how people with the conspiracy mindset can see their theories confirmed everywhere they look.

Defaulter1831 · 24-11-2018 03:23PM

I love science and scientific progress.

Regarding climate change i feel we're dealing with complexities in nature we don't have the ability to fully comprehend yet. I don't think any scientist can make statements with 100% certainty.

However regardless it is good and proper policy to reduce carbon emissions, reduce the amount of plastic we produce, try and live in a more sustainable and simple way so that we don't destroy the planet for future generations.

I totally respect the opinions of all climate change scientists just not sure what the ultimate effect of global warming will be with regards to all the arguments of the gulf stopping, triggering an ice age, droughts etc. It's just way too complex for our scientists at present.

Akrasia · 24-11-2018 03:50PM

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

In British Columbia's case the tax keeps increasing, the carbon commissions keep increasing and they dumped the revenue neutral illusion.

Lorrie Goldstein is a trump supporting climate change denier. I don't think he's a reliable source for analysis on this topic.

I linked to a peer reviewed research paper that was published showing a drop in CO2 of between 5% and 15% based on a $30 per tonne carbon tax (which is much lower than it needs to be)

As for revenue neutral that's a lie that is demolished easily see when you buy that loaf of bread, you're paying a portion of all of the costs, including taxation!, of every person or business entity that had anything to do with that bread, from before the wheat was planted up until the loaf of bread ends up in that durable plastic bag in the back seat of your Mitsubishi Outlander Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

Have you thought about how much your doctor pays into the tax system to augment his or her employees' PRSI/USC contributions? And what about all the taxes your local medical centre paid when purchasing all of that sophisticated equipment, not to mention the endless monthly outlay for cotton swabs and tongue depressors? Make no mistake about it all that carbon tax overhead is distributed throughout the system in one form or another. All it does in increase operating expenses we still have to eat and we still get sick and especially in winter.

What are you actually going on about.

Pa ElGrande · 24-11-2018 03:53PM

Akrasia wrote: »

So environmentalists aren't allowed recourse to the courts system then?

It's sad how people with the conspiracy mindset can see their theories confirmed everywhere they look.

Their goal is to do an end run around democratic systems and this is an abuse of process and taxpayers who must pay the bills since it is not the courts function to create law or social policy.

Akrasia · 24-11-2018 03:56PM

Defaulter1831 wrote: »

I love science and scientific progress.

Regarding climate change i feel we're dealing with complexities in nature we don't have the ability to fully comprehend yet. I don't think any scientist can make statements with 100% certainty.

However regardless it is good and proper policy to reduce carbon emissions, reduce the amount of plastic we produce, try and live in a more sustainable and simple way so that we don't destroy the planet for future generations.

I totally respect the opinions of all climate change scientists just not sure what the ultimate effect of global warming will be with regards to all the arguments of the gulf stopping, triggering an ice age, droughts etc. It's just way too complex for our scientists at present.

The scientists working on it have a good idea of what the uncertainties are and the IPCC publishes their confidence levels for each potential outcome from climate change. The science isn't all in, it never will be, but we know with a very high confidence that continuing with our current energy system will result in very serious increases in global average temperature over the next few generations which will have widespread negative consequences for both the natural world and human civilisation.

We need to do more than just cut down on fossil fuel use, we need to go completely carbon neutral in the next 2 to 3 decades.

JJJJNR · 24-11-2018 04:49PM

Akrasia wrote: »

The scientists working on it have a good idea of what the uncertainties are and the IPCC publishes their confidence levels for each potential outcome from climate change. The science isn't all in, it never will be, but we know with a very high confidence that continuing with our current energy system will result in very serious increases in global average temperature over the next few generations which will have widespread negative consequences for both the natural world and human civilisation.

We need to do more than just cut down on fossil fuel use, we need to go completely carbon neutral in the next 2 to 3 decades.

So how much have global temperatures risen since the introduction of the volcano.

Akrasia · 24-11-2018 04:58PM

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

Their goal is to do an end run around democratic systems and this is an abuse of process and taxpayers who must pay the bills since it is not the courts function to create law or social policy.

An abuse of process??

Its right for citizens to have access to the courts to keep their government in check. the cost of the legal system is the cost of living in a democracy. Would you rather live in a state where governments rule by decree and can never be challenged in court?

Whose side are you on ElGrande. You seem to have the most bizzare world view.

Akrasia · 24-11-2018 04:59PM

JJJJNR wrote: »

So how much have global temperatures risen since the introduction of the volcano.

That question makes no sense.

Pa ElGrande · 24-11-2018 05:47PM

Akrasia wrote: »

I linked to a peer reviewed research paper that was published showing a drop in CO2 of between 5% and 15% based on a $30 per tonne carbon tax (which is much lower than it needs to be)

On the contrary it is a stealth tax that keeps on increasing, the reduction was caused by the post 2008 economic contraction and cross border shopping (i.e. buy your fuel in the United States). It also had an immediate negative effect on some young mens employment and they did the bait and switch tactic and removed credits so it is no longer "revenue neutral" by their definition.

Here’s why B.C. pays such insane gas prices, and why even a new pipeline might not help.

Akrasia wrote: »

What are you actually going on about.

There is no such thing as revenue neutral, imagine a politician putting their hand in your pocket and taking out 3 x €10 notes, she gives you €10 back, €10 to your neighbour for the upkeep of their electric car and €10 to herself to cover the overheads of collection and redistribution.

You live in Ireland and you have to pay for food, heating, sick care and corporate and social welfare programs, which means you must work which means you must expend energy. Unless you live a self sufficient rural lifestyle from the 1940s or 1950s, everything you do involves the use of oil and gas in some form so when you levy new taxes on energy consumption you push up the prices of every activity in the economy, the higher the prices rise the more revenue government collects in taxation overall. If you look at your energy bills its is (cost x VAT rate) x carbon tax rate. (yes it is a tax on a tax). Because the general expenditure goes up caused by addition of the carbon tax overhead, the government collects more revenue by taxing the inflated prices, so even though they can give some of the money back in tax credits if fact it is a net gain for them and they keep increasing it until eventually productivity drops and the tax becomes a burden that drags economic activity down.

Pa ElGrande · 24-11-2018 06:14PM

Akrasia wrote: »

An abuse of process??

Its right for citizens to have access to the courts to keep their government in check. the cost of the legal system is the cost of living in a democracy. Would you rather live in a state where governments rule by decree and can never be challenged in court?

Whose side are you on ElGrande. You seem to have the most bizzare world view.

The abuse of the court system by environmentalists trying to impose their world-view on the population at large with the ultimate goal of diverting tax revenue to subsidise their lifestyles is reprehensible.

Pa ElGrande · 24-11-2018 06:23PM

JJJJNR wrote: »

So how much have global temperatures risen since the introduction of the volcano.

They tend to have the opposite effect when they are large enough to reach the upper atmosphere. One of the most disastrous one for the population of Ireland was from the Kamchatka peninsula in Siberia during 1739.

"Man-made" Climate Change Lunathicks Out in Full Force

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