"Man-made" Climate Change Lunathicks Out in Full Force

SafeSurfer

Is this documentary absolute balderdash or an inconvenient truth to the warmists?

There were some interesting reactions to it including:

Thirty-seven British scientists signed a letter of complaint, saying that they "believe that the misrepresentations of facts and views, both of which occur in your programme, are so serious that repeat broadcasts of the programme, without amendment, are not in the public interest. In view of the seriousness of climate change as an issue, it is crucial that public debate about it is balanced and well-informed"

maccored

the earth is warming and weather is changing. doesnt really matter the reasons why after that.

SafeSurfer

maccored wrote: »

the earth is warming and weather is changing. doesnt really matter the reasons why after that.

Tax the volcanoes and artic tundra instead of citizens then.

Doctor Jimbob

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Tax the volcanoes and artic tundra instead of citizens then.

If you have an issue with taxes as a response to climate change fair enough, I don't think taxes are the answer either. It's a big leap to go from that to claiming the whole thing is just a hoax though.

SafeSurfer

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

If you have an issue with taxes as a response to climate change fair enough, I don't think taxes are the answer either. It's a big leap to go from that to claiming the whole thing is just a hoax though.

I am sceptical as to whether the climate is being changed by the actions of humans alone which makes me believe the efforts to change human behavior as a response to climate change is a cynical, irrational and politically motivated reaction to an issue which is largely beyond the control of politicians.

Akrasia

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Is this documentary absolute balderdash or an inconvenient truth to the warmists?

It's an absolutely disgraceful example of a documentary serving as misinformation and propaganda. Its on par with 'the origin of specious nonsense' in the dishonest tactics and misrepresentation of science and editing of interviews

Akrasia

maccored wrote: »

the earth is warming and weather is changing. doesnt really matter the reasons why after that.

Of course it matters if we're responsible and our actions will either make things much worse or limit the changes to global climate to a manageable level

SafeSurfer

Akrasia wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Is this documentary absolute balderdash or an inconvenient truth to the warmists?

It's an absolutely disgraceful example of a documentary serving as misinformation and propaganda. Its on par with 'the origin of specious nonsense' in the dishonest tactics and misrepresentation of science and editing of interviews

The film which made climate change a mainstream issue was “An Inconvenient Truth”. I went to see it 12 years ago while on honeymoon in South Africa.
However it also is full of misinformation, misrepresentation and propaganda.

Dakota Dan

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The film which made climate change a mainstream issue was “An Inconvenient Truth”. I went to see it 12 years ago while on honeymoon in South Africa.
However it also is full of misinformation, misrepresentation and propaganda.

Cowspiracy is another one full of false information.

Doctor Jimbob

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The film which made climate change a mainstream issue was “An Inconvenient Truth”. I went to see it 12 years ago while on honeymoon in South Africa.
However it also is full of misinformation, misrepresentation and propaganda.

Documentaries quite often tend to be. That's why it's best to get your scientific information directly from scientists and not from documentaries.

dense

maccored wrote: »

the earth is warming and weather is changing. doesnt really matter the reasons why after that.

Does really.

We're being told we've modified the climate by adding CO2 and that we can stop modifying it (it won't repair it or reverse what's already been done) by rapidly stopping our usage of petrol, coal, diesel, oil, non renewable electricity etc.

On the other hand, if the issue now is that temperatures are rising, presumably those with that issue believe that instead of rising, temperatures should now be falling, with the opposite effects or what global warming is supposed to be causing.

You will accept that global warming is now cited by alarmists as being responsible for virtually every weather event from too much snow to not enough snow, to too much rain to too much drought.

They're on to a win win situation either way until one analyses weather records for the supposedly ideal pre industrial period, (now unanimously agreed upon by climate science as the period from 1850 to 1900).

If CO2 controlled "the climate" and world weather, it certainly wasn't doing much of a job of it when it was at 280ppm.

http://www.pascalbonenfant.com/18c/geography/weather.html

dense

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

If you have an issue with taxes as a response to climate change fair enough, I don't think taxes are the answer either.

Why not? Taxes, if set high enough, will have the desired effect of fuel rationing.

Petrol at €5 per litre should satisfy the drivers here who want to be part of the solution.
Home heating oil at €2000 per 1000 litre fill.
Double aviation fuel costs.

Everyone's up for it, unless they're all being hypocritical about the whole "need to act now" thing.

What's the alternative "solution"?

Stopping the oil tankers and coal from being unloaded here?

We need to do something other than admiring wackos stopping traffic on Tower Bridge.

dense

This is what you're all demanding to fix the broken climate, right?
Sensible carbon taxes at last.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/households-face-3000-tax-bill-on-fuel-and-energy-to-cover-climate-costs-37550460.html

Hope you're all happy when it happens.
Self flagellation was always a thing with cults.

p1akuw47h5r3it

dense wrote: »

Why not? Taxes, if set high enough, will have the desired effect of fuel rationing.


Everyone's up for it, unless they're all being hypocritical about the whole "need to act now" thing.

What's the alternative "solution"?

Stopping the oil tankers and coal from being unloaded here?

We need to do something other than admiring wackos stopping traffic on Tower Bridge.

Yes and tank the economy. Stop being so stupid. Nobody wants to destroy economy. The solution is to reduce emissions gradually, something which is already being attempted. Alongside this investment in science and green technologies/fuels, or incentives to use them through, for example, tax breaks.

I personally am also opposed to carbon taxes. The Tower Bridge protesters are idiots. All they are doing is damaging the climate more by causing vehicles to be running longer stuck in the traffic jam they created, whilst at the same time turning people off the cause that they claim to care about so much.

p1akuw47h5r3it

dense wrote: »

This is what you're all demanding to fix the broken climate, right?
Sensible carbon taxes at last.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/households-face-3000-tax-bill-on-fuel-and-energy-to-cover-climate-costs-37550460.html

Hope you're all happy when it happens.
Self flagellation was always a thing with cults.

Unless emissions are reduced. Reduce emissions we won't need to increase the carbon tax. The theory is quite simple to follow.

Doctor Jimbob

dense wrote: »

Why not? Taxes, if set high enough, will have the desired effect of fuel rationing.

Petrol at €5 per litre should satisfy the drivers here who want to be part of the solution.
Home heating oil at €2000 per 1000 litre fill.
Double aviation fuel costs.

Everyone's up for it, unless they're all being hypocritical about the whole "need to act now" thing.

What's the alternative "solution"?

Stopping the oil tankers and coal from being unloaded here?

We need to do something other than admiring wackos stopping traffic on Tower Bridge.

Because I oppose taxes as a means to limit use/consumption of things in general. Increased taxes seems to me like saying "carry on as long as you can pay for it". It sends the wrong message.

Alf Veedersane

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Because I oppose taxes as a means to limit use/consumption of things in general. Increased taxes seems to me like saying "carry on as long as you can pay for it". It sends the wrong message.

It worked for plastic bags.

If you look at it as a measure in isolation, it possibly wouldn't be that effective. But if you ring-fence the money and use it to incentives improvements in energy efficiency (our building stock is pretty bad), upgrades in hearing systems, R&D for new technologies, then the tax is facilitating incentives.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

It worked for plastic bags.

If you look at it as a measure in isolation, it possibly wouldn't be that effective. But if you ring-fence the money and use it to incentives improvements in energy efficiency (our building stock is pretty bad), upgrades in hearing systems, R&D for new technologies, then the tax is facilitating incentives.

It worked for plastic bags because they are not essential to our everyday lives like fossil fuels are, and can be reused so are not needed to be purchased every time something is purchased. Thus Jimbobs assertion of if you can pay for it carry-on still stands.

Alf Veedersane

DanDan6592 wrote: »

It worked for plastic bags because they are not essential to our everyday lives like fossil fuels are, and can be reused so are not needed to be purchased every time something is purchased. Thus Jimbobs assertion of if you can pay for it carry-on still stands.

It was a behavioural change. Most people could afford the bag. But the salient part was to raise money to offer incentives, ie the tax wouldn't be the ultimate means to effect any change.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

It was a behavioural change. Most people could afford the bag. But the salient part was to raise money to offer incentives, ie the tax wouldn't be the ultimate means to effect any change.

Sorry I'm not sure what you mean, raise money to offer what incentives?

The point I'm making is that t is easy to affect behavioural change with something like plastic bags as they are not essential for our day to day existence the way fossil fuels are.

Alf Veedersane

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Sorry I'm not sure what you mean, raise money to offer what incentives?

The point I'm making is that t is easy to affect behavioural change with something like plastic bags as they are not essential for our day to day existence the way fossil fuels are.

My point originally wasn't really about the plastic bag tax.

I mentioned ring fencing the tax to create a fund for offer incentives to improve the efficiency of our homes, improved heating systems, etc.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

My point originally wasn't really about the plastic bag tax.

I mentioned ring fencing the tax to create a fund for offer incentives to improve the efficiency of our homes, improved heating systems, etc.

Oh, apologies. Well maybe so but no tax in Ireland is ever ring fenced as far as I'm aware?

The problem with the carbon tax is it is just an excuse for politicians to use to pretend they are actually doing something to stop the affects of human caused climate change, without actually doing anything that is productive ("oh we'll raise the carbon tax!"). This ringfencing also doesn't address Jimbob's assertion that it allows those who can afford to just carry on as they are.

Alf Veedersane

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Oh, apologies. Well maybe so but no tax in Ireland is ever ring fenced as far as I'm aware?

The problem with the carbon tax is it is just an excuse for politicians to use to pretend they are actually doing something to stop the affects of human caused climate change, without actually doing anything that is productive ("oh we'll raise the carbon tax!"). This ringfencing also doesn't address Jimbob's assertion that it allows those who can afford to just carry on as they are.

Maybe it's is just posturing by politicians. Maybe it isn't.

Maybe people who can afford it will carry on. Business as usual.

But if it was ring fenced, then maybe that money they generate for a fund would allow a lot of efficiency works to be done.

Again, that's a model that has been proposed and it's not unreasonable.

And it's not just about climate change...energy efficiency is inextricably linked with air quality and health.

Tax for tax sake won't be a good enough answer. The tax has to be used properly. Stick and carrot.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Maybe it's is just posturing by politicians. Maybe it isn't.

Maybe people who can afford it will carry on. Business as usual.

But if it was ring fenced, then maybe that money they generate for a fund would allow a lot of efficiency works to be done.

Again, that's a model that has been proposed and it's not unreasonable.

And it's not just about climate change...energy efficiency is inextricably linked with air quality and health.

Tax for tax sake won't be a good enough answer. The tax has to be used properly. Stick and carrot.

I don't disagree. I'm just saying in Ireland I think it's unlikely that it will be ring fenced, as no tax is.

Alf Veedersane

DanDan6592 wrote: »

I don't disagree. I'm just saying in Ireland I think it's unlikely that it will be ring fenced, as no tax is.

No tax has been. Doesn't mean it's difficult to do.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

No tax has been. Doesn't mean it's difficult to do.

You'd be surprised. People like Dense exist!

Pa ElGrande

Akrasia wrote: »

It's an absolutely disgraceful example of a documentary serving as misinformation and propaganda. Its on par with 'the origin of specious nonsense' in the dishonest tactics and misrepresentation of science and editing of interviews

Here is a real example of a documentary that serves as misinformation and propaganda .

Pa ElGrande

dense wrote: »

This is what you're all demanding to fix the broken climate, right?
Sensible carbon taxes at last.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/households-face-3000-tax-bill-on-fuel-and-energy-to-cover-climate-costs-37550460.html

Hope you're all happy when it happens.
Self flagellation was always a thing with cults.

No government bureaucracy is going to say no to more tax it would be a very courageous decision by the ministers involved. Especially give the direction the wind is blowing:


France’s fuel protests show how poor people can bear the cost of fighting climate change.


Milestone carbon pollution plan rejected by Washington state voters


Voters Reject Several Climate-Related Ballot Initiatives


As usual the supporters of carbon tax think themselves immune to the repercussions of such a tax policy and even perceive that they will somehow benefit especially when their lifestyle is being subsidised by carbon taxes or did someone really think those car charging points are really free and will remain that way forever or that road pricing will be changed so you pay per kilometre you drive. They forget they won't always be in employment and there will come a time in their lives when their earnings will be much less and they will have to pay those taxes while getting no benefit from them. As usual those on the margins pay the price first and what little wealth they have is redistributed to much wealthier people.

90% of Irish people worried about cost of home heating this winter


SVP warn of growing pressure on middle class to pay bills


Winter bills misery with ANOTHER energy supplier price hike


Children in school today should be made to interview the people who grew up in 1950s Ireland while they still live and write down what day to day life was really like for people then because that's the future without todays energy infrastructure.



Denmark removed the corporate welfare for electric cars and Teslas sales collapsed.


After Tesla Debacle, Denmark Reconsiders Electric Car Subsidies


U.K. to Cut Subsidies for Low-, Zero-Emission Vehicles


Colm McCarthy: Electric car incentives face rocky road

There are only 4,000 electric cars in Ireland but the Government is cheerfully targeting 500,000 (out of a national total of about two million) by 2030. If this figure is achieved, the current reliance on motoring taxes will become unsustainable. There is no shortage of confident predictions that all road vehicles, including trucks and buses, will be electric as early as 2040. Last year, the government of Denmark withdrew its generous tax deal on electric cars because it began to succeed.

source

The cold reality for us who live on this Atlantic island is that we are situated between 51 and 55 degrees into the Northern hemisphere. Most of the time we get the benefit of the warm gulf stream, occasionally the reality of our physical location on planet earth does intrude and we are not prepared for it.


I don't worry about threats from EU bullies, politically the decade of the technocrats is drawing to a close and the cost benefit analysis for Ireland remaining in the EU as it currently stands will radically alter. Countries that default on their debts have much more to worry about than subsidising wealthy middle class peoples lifestyle.

dense

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Yes and tank the economy. Stop being so stupid. Nobody wants to destroy economy. The solution is to reduce emissions gradually, something which is already being attempted.

I'm afraid not, what's already being attempted is making no difference.

That's why earth scientists now say we need rapid emissions reductions in order to save the planet.

"IPCC: rapid carbon emission cuts vital to stop severe impact of climate change" -2014


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/nov/02/rapid-carbon-emission-cuts-severe-impact-climate-change-ipcc-report

"IPCC Report: 1.5°C limit achievable with ‘rapid and far-reaching’ emissions cuts" 2018

https://greennews.ie/ipcc-report-1-5-limit-achievable-rapid-far-reaching-emissions-cuts/

There's little point in talking about handy, imperceptible, and convenient gradual reductions, it's simply too late for these approaches.

The key words here are "rapid" and "unprecedented".

dense

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

No government bureaucracy is going to say no to more tax it would be a very courageous decision by the ministers involved. Especially give the direction the wind is blowing:


France’s fuel protests show how poor people can bear the cost of fighting climate change.


Milestone carbon pollution plan rejected by Washington state voters


Voters Reject Several Climate-Related Ballot Initiatives


As usual the supporters of carbon tax think themselves immune to the repercussions of such a tax policy and even perceive that they will somehow benefit especially when their lifestyle is being subsidised by carbon taxes or did someone really think those car charging points are really free and will remain that way forever or that road pricing will be changed so you pay per kilometre you drive. They forget they won't always be in employment and there will come a time in their lives when their earnings will be much less and they will have to pay those taxes while getting no benefit from them. As usual those on the margins pay the price first and what little wealth they have is redistributed to much wealthier people.

90% of Irish people worried about cost of home heating this winter


SVP warn of growing pressure on middle class to pay bills


Winter bills misery with ANOTHER energy supplier price hike


Children in school today should be made to interview the people who grew up in 1950s Ireland while they still live and write down what day to day life was really like for people then because that's the future without todays energy infrastructure.



Denmark removed the corporate welfare for electric cars and Teslas sales collapsed.


After Tesla Debacle, Denmark Reconsiders Electric Car Subsidies


U.K. to Cut Subsidies for Low-, Zero-Emission Vehicles


Colm McCarthy: Electric car incentives face rocky road




The cold reality for us who live on this Atlantic island is that we are situated between 51 and 55 degrees into the Northern hemisphere. Most of the time we get the benefit of the warm gulf stream, occasionally the reality of our physical location on planet earth does intrude and we are not prepared for it.


I don't worry about threats from EU bullies, politically the decade of the technocrats is drawing to a close and the cost benefit analysis for Ireland remaining in the EU as it currently stands will radically alter. Countries that default on their debts have much more to worry about than subsidising wealthy middle class peoples lifestyle.

It's not that simple.

The majority of people here are easily led, an example being the power of the church here for generations.

Tell them their use of peat briquettes is responsible for global weather catastrophes and they'll sit up and beg for more taxes to be levied to atone for their sins against the planet.

I would disagree with you about those on the margins of society being hit hardest with any carbon taxes.

Experience shows that whether it's fuel allowances or water charges, assistance, funded by the tax payer will be arranged for those whose usage of fossil fuels is the same as everyone else's. Their pollution will be paid for by others, thereby removing their responsibility for saving the planet.

Just as the treatment of their shït was to be subsidised by every one else willing to pay water charges, so will their environmental damage.

It will be earners who will be subsidising the masses of non earners who are compelled to pay Sky TV charges rather than their social contract bills, aided and abetted by their shrewd leftist ringmasters always just seconds away from threatening mass civil disobedience.