Peter Casey believes Travellers should not be recognised as an ethnic minority

31-10-2018 11:51PM

listermint wrote: »

It's hard to cut hatred down I agree.

Meanwhile the people that work with traveller youth will continue to do so and hopefully they're work spreads and grows and is nurtured.

Maybe we can start breaking the cycle.

They can't do it alone . Pretending they can solves nothing.

A major stumbling block is pulling the kids out of education. It seems there's no importance sunk into it for the most part. I get the impression that you'd be seen as ''soft'' or ''having notions'' if you stay on until the end of secondary school, never mind 3rd level. That's something the Travelling community needs to address themselves before anything else.

FrancieBrady · 31-10-2018 11:52PM

tayto lover wrote: »

that traveller lad comes across much better than the obnoxious Collins.
He appears to be a genuine person in what he says and would make a very good spokesman for the travellers.
Who are the two women?

Oh my God, they aren't all the same. Can I get my Peter Casey vote back???????????

listermint · 31-10-2018 11:53PM

Omackeral wrote: »

A major stumbling block is pulling the kids out of education. It seems there's no importance sunk into it for the most part. I get the impression that you'd be seen as ''soft'' or ''having notions'' if you stay on until the end of secondary school, never mind 3rd level. That's something the Travelling community needs to address themselves before anything else.

100%. And I'd garner employment schemes would be a method to tackle some of this. For second level schooled travellers even apprenticeship schemes

Jackman25 · 31-10-2018 11:53PM

tayto lover wrote: »

that traveller lad comes across much better than the obnoxious Collins.
He appears to be a genuine person in what he says and would make a very good spokesman for the travellers.
Who are the two women?

Agreed. Martin Collins could learn a lot from him. He was very measured, unlike the usual antagonism from PP.

Jackman25 · 31-10-2018 11:55PM

listermint wrote: »

100%. And I'd garner employment schemes would be a method to tackle some of this. For second level schooled travellers even apprenticeship schemes

Yes, It would be good to see something like this implemented.

hill16bhoy · 31-10-2018 11:56PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Okay so I see you're explicitly changing your register to that of the rich liberal-arts major American university student for your argument. I can guess what we're in for.

Please try and and argue in English, and without alt-right (far right) cliches that don't make any sense.

RandomName2 wrote: »

I've noticed this quite a bit recently. There's a growing tendency of debates being polarized by lumping everyone your disagree with into a particular camp, and the further the identity of that camp is from the point that is being debated the better.

I'm arguing very much from the centre here and on recognised definitions of what ethnicity and racial discrimination are.

That's a fact.

What there definitely is is a growing tendency for people with far right opinions to deny that their opinions are far right when they demonstrably are far right.

You've made it demonstrably clear that you are one of these.

RandomName2 wrote: »

Which is weasel code for 'I can't argue against your points, so I'll call you names so that you will be socially shamed and be unable to make your points'.

I challenged you to show how Travelers are a race. I challenged you again. You slip and slide greasily away from the issue as you know that your argument is built out of nothing.

I challenge you again.

You're not arguing any of my points. Why is that?

Travellers are not a race. Then again, I've never claimed that they are. Travellers are an ethnic group.

You're attempting to argue against something nobody said. One can guess why that is - it's because you're unable to argue against the substantive points that have been made.

But discrimination against Travellers does count as racial discrimination.

And it's not me that has drawn up the criteria for saying such.

The United Nations have.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

The United Nations use the definition of racial discrimination laid out in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, adopted in 1966:

... any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life. (Part 1 of Article 1 of the U.N. International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination)[83]

RandomName2 wrote: »

A part of me was tempted to post an image of an attacked pensioner, in a classic 'you call this a pretend victim' type move. In all honesty though that would be a dirty, emotive tactic, when what is really called for is a level headed assessment of the situation. What would I be hoping to achieve by doing this? Just to try and shame you without addressing your point?

Okay so the real rebuttal is that you try and smear individuals as racists instead of intellectually debating them and then have the temerity to call them snowflakes when they call you out on your attempts to silence discussion on societal matters. Your claims that attempts to silence discussion is a defense of free speech is just one of those weird double-think strategies.

A smear is an untrue, malign characterisation of somebody which is designed to paint that person in a bad light, to lower their reputation.

I've smeared nobody here, because I'm merely pointing out what is categorically true - that there are a large amount of posters here who have engaged in or attempted to justify racial discrimination.

Any level headed assessment would come to the same conclusion, because level headed assessments rely on facts, not feelings.

No amount of weasel word salad on your part can change that.

tayto lover · 31-10-2018 11:56PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Oh my God, they aren't all the same. Can I get my Peter Casey vote back???????????

Thought you voted for Michilin rather than the your own candidate, Leaha.
You seem to be the chief flip-flipper around here.

FrancieBrady · 31-10-2018 11:56PM

Jackman25 wrote: »

Agreed. Martin Collins could learn a lot from him. He was very measured, unlike the usual antagonism from PP.

Simply because he is 'included' in the conversation, he isn't there to defend traveller behaviour, which is the situation Collins finds himself in, invariably.

tayto lover · 31-10-2018 11:59PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Simply because he is 'included' in the conversation, he isn't there to defend traveller behaviour, which is the situation Collins finds himself in, invariably.

Standing up for your old boss Francie?
Calling anyone who disagrees with him racist is really doing them a favour ....not.

freshpopcorn · 01-11-2018 12:00AM

tayto lover wrote: »

that traveller lad comes across much better than the obnoxious Collins.
He appears to be a genuine person in what he says and would make a very good spokesman for the travellers.
Who are the two women?

The travelling community are really lacking a good spokes person Martin Collins isn't great and don't get me started on John Connors.

The two women are Ciara Kelly(Operation Transformation, Newstalk) and Niamh Horan(Irish Independent).

01-11-2018 12:02AM

listermint wrote: »

It's almost like people think that folks like waking up in the morning feeling useless and worthless.

I don't think that's the situation in a lot of cases. That's a very romanticised way of putting it. Many criminals have fcuk all empathy for their victims and are only out for themselves.

listermint wrote: »

Have you considered having a gander over research of why people turn to criminality or is it safe to ignore all of that and just get angry with zero grasp of the causes.

People are in jail for a multitude of reasons. Yes some are there because they felt they'd no option but a lot are there because they're too lazy to put in an honest graft and fancied an easier way of making money by moving drugs. Some are there because they're greedy bastards. Plenty are there because they're idiots. It's not always the system holding them down.

01-11-2018 12:02AM

listermint wrote: »

It's almost like people think that folks like waking up in the morning feeling useless and worthless.

I don't think that's the situation in a lot of cases. That's a very romanticised way of putting it. Plenty of criminals have fcuk all empathy for their victims and are only out for themselves.

listermint wrote: »

Have you considered having a gander over research of why people turn to criminality or is it safe to ignore all of that and just get angry with zero grasp of the causes.

People are in jail for a multitude of reasons. Yes some are there because they felt they'd no option but a lot are there because they're too lazy to put in an honest graft and fancied an easier way of making money by moving drugs. Some are there because they're greedy bastards. Plenty are there because they're idiots. It's not always the system holding them down.

FrancieBrady · 01-11-2018 12:04AM

tayto lover wrote: »

Standing up for your old boss Francie?
Calling anyone who disagrees with him racist is really doing them a favour ....not.

What? That makes zero sense.

hill16bhoy · 01-11-2018 12:05AM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

MDH is history now. He just has to spend his money and gain his pensions. And spout a bit of poetry lol. He knows, we know. We don't care. We know the score.

The score is Michael D. Higgins got 55% of the vote and was re-elected President on the first count.

Whereas Peter Casey can sod off back to the US deep south where his brand of "politics" is much more suited.

And a hell of a lot more people won't care - the majority of the Irish people will be delighted, actually.

01-11-2018 12:05AM

listermint wrote: »

100%. And I'd garner employment schemes would be a method to tackle some of this. For second level schooled travellers even apprenticeship schemes

Would be a good bridge between the communities. Do any exist that you know of? I'd support that.

tayto lover · 01-11-2018 12:05AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What? That makes zero sense.

Thought you said you did some work for Pavee in the past?
Apologies if it wasn't you who said it.

FrancieBrady · 01-11-2018 12:08AM

tayto lover wrote: »

Thought you said you did some work for Pavee in the past?
Apologies if it wasn't you who said it.

No, I didn't.

Nor have I used the term 'racist' since these threads began.

tayto lover · 01-11-2018 12:08AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, I didn't.

Nor have I used the term 'racist' since these threads began.

The racist thing was about Collins.

tayto lover · 01-11-2018 12:10AM

Jackman25 wrote: »

Agreed. Martin Collins could learn a lot from him. He was very measured, unlike the usual antagonism from PP.

He even admitted that what Casey said was not racist.
Hope they have that pint together.
He could be a good running mate for Casey too. That would be fun.

hill16bhoy · 01-11-2018 12:12AM

Redneck Culchie wrote: »

Are you another Shinner that abandoned ship for the winning team like Francie

For somebody complaining about labels you sure do a lot of labelling.

01-11-2018 12:14AM

Squiggle wrote: »

The fools are the ones entertaining the chancers in Thurles who are turning up their noses at houses costing €348,000 each, and who happen to be travellers. The bigger fools are the ones contemplating, and the ones supporting, adding two stables and a half acre of land to each dwelling at a rough cost of €25,000 per dwelling. Plenty of hard working people out there can't afford a €373,000 house. That's what leads to division. We need to get real.

+1

Before interest on a 48m mortgage for a house that expensive you’re paying back €7,500. Or €1730 per week

While the min they would be paying p/w is €40 odd. Give or take.

tabby aspreme · 01-11-2018 12:14AM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

The score is Michael D. Higgins got 55% of the vote and was re-elected President on the first count.

55% of the 46% who voted, not exactly a resounding success, considering the media were100% behind him

The Bishop Basher · 01-11-2018 12:15AM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

The irony of a Peter Casey supporter complaining about "people being angry", when Casey's campaign was exclusively based on anger and vilification.

I'm actually laughing at the lack of self-awareness.

Page after page, post after post, you resort to personally insulting people and trying to put them down with these one liners.

It's a sign of a weak argument when you have to resort to that.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

I voted for a candidate whose campaign was all about tolerance, inclusion, hope and optimism - the very best qualities of Irish society. That candidate was Michael D. Higgins.

Michael D's credibility was significantly damaged in that election and i'm not sure we're done yet. We're still waiting on the expenses. He had his chance to slink off into the sunset but did greed get the better of him ?

Time will tell..

FrancieBrady · 01-11-2018 12:16AM

tayto lover wrote: »

He even admitted that what Casey said was not racist.
Hope they have that pint together.
He could be a good running mate for Casey too. That would be fun.

What Casey said was racial disrimination, what a lot of his supporters said was racist.

Racist comment no longer confines itself to race, ethnicity is also factored in.

You or I do not get to define ethnicity, we give our legislators that power.

omega man · 01-11-2018 12:18AM

That was a refreshing honest civilised conversation, if somewhat awkward (probably because of the honesty from all except Kiara Kelly).

Fair play to Niamh Horan for her honesty which we’d not have seen pre Casey. It then set the tone for a grown up discussion.

I was very impressed with Martin Ward but let’s face it he’s not representative of the traveller community but he should be.

The Bishop Basher · 01-11-2018 12:32AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What Casey said was racial disrimination, what a lot of his supporters said was racist.

Is this the latest buzzword because you've all finally had to admit that Peter Casey said nothing racist or prejudicial ?

Either way it's just more lefty meaningless nonsense.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You or I do not get to define ethnicity, we give our legislators that power.

Enda Kenny was a moronic idiot. He should never have been allowed near the reins of this country let alone make decisions such as this. The man was utterly unsuitable and incompetent. He carried zero gravitas and could only rule with the whip which is a sign of a weak leader.

We really should declare the ethinicity decision a mistake, reverse it and remove it from the books..

FrancieBrady · 01-11-2018 12:34AM

Rennaws wrote: »

Is this the latest buzzword because you've all finally had to admit that Peter Casey said nothing racist or prejudicial ?

Either way it's just more lefty meaningless nonsense.

Well, I never claimed he said anything racist, but I do believe in the UN definition of racial discriminatory comment and he certainly did that. His supporters here took that as clearance to make racist comments in the broader definition of racist comment.

Enda Kenny was a moronic idiot. He should never have been allowed near the reins of this country let alone make decisions such as this. The man was utterly unsuitable and incompetent. He carried had zero gravitas as a leader and could only rule with the whip which is a sign of a weak leader.

We really should declare the ethinicity decision a mistake and remove it from the books..

I agree Enda was an idiot, but so was Haughey, but Aosdanna was something good that Haughey did. Nobody is all bad.

What difference to you and me would removing SEMS make BTW?

Geuze · 01-11-2018 12:37AM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Denial of Travellers' ethnicity is categorically racist.

I utterly reject that statement.

I had no particular position on whether their claim to ethnic minority status is justified, until a few discussions I had this week, after which I agree that it is justified.

Many people I work with would not agree that the ethnic minority status is justified.

These people may think that as travellers are genetically very similar to settled Irish people, then how can they be a different ethnic minority?

I do not call these colleagues of mine racist.

It may be that ethnic minority status needs to be explained better, yes.

And also, people feel that EM status leads to privilege and entitlement, which they don't agree with.

blinding · 01-11-2018 12:41AM

Rennaws wrote: »

Page after page, post after post, you resort to personally insulting people and trying to put them down with these one liners.

It's a sign of a weak argument when you have to resort to that.

Michael D's credibility was significantly damaged in that election and i'm not sure we're done yet. We're still waiting on the expenses. He had his chance to slink off into the sunset but did greed get the better of him ?

Time will tell..

If these Expenses really really stink then Money D could come under some real pressure . the blood is up with the Casey Vote and if Money D withheld very important information that should have been released before the Democratic Process their could be wigs on the Green .

Redneck Culchie · 01-11-2018 12:43AM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

For somebody complaining about labels you sure do a lot of labelling.

I'm right though aren't I

Quite likely someone called "hill16bhoy" spewing the stuff you are is a Shinner.

Any comment on the collapse of Sinn Fein and Leah. Or are you and Francie now paid up Labour men. Don't worry this will be the last good election for Labour either for a very long time.

Peter Casey believes Travellers should not be recognised as an ethnic minority

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