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The Irish Language and the Irish Government

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    #422
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,280 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    I am not arguing that it shouldn't be. What I am saying the amount of money spent on Irish in schools should be reduced. The reason for this is that the vast majority of people who learn it schools will never engage meaningfully with the language once they leave school. They do it because they have to which doesn't help the language. Perfect if you want to remind people of their heritage, a disaster if you want to keep the language alive. Actual Irish speakers struggle to access government services in their chosen language. If you want to keep Irish alive you need to support Irish speakers first and foremost.

    Sticking to a 100 old strategy is stupid. It didn't work in the 30's and 40's when Ireland was a relatively closed country. It will not work in modern Ireland which is one of the most open economies in the world. Never mind companies like Netflix and HBO with production budgets that dwarf what is spent on Irish.



    The big issue is the amount of time spent on teaching it at primary level. The 35-40 minutes per day could be spent on science or a European language, either of which would be of greater benefit.

    Both religion and Irish should be optional subjects after school, we can then assess the real interest in the language.


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    #423
    Rhineshark
    Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    One issue that used to be a big problem was that native speakers were more or less locked out of "Irish speaking Ireland due to the use of "book Irish" rather than the living language as she is still spoke in the West and Gaeltacht areas. RTE, TnaG etc speaking in "modern" Irish on the radio etc made it very difficult for actual speakers to understand them. Same with going to school and being told that their own day-to-day language was wrong.

    It has improved now, as radio now employs native speakers and schools use all four regional tongues in exams to not disadvantage people (We're all screwed in the LC with Ulster Irish bar maybe the border counties :P)

    Something I didn't know until I moved to a rural Gaeltacht on the west coast.


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    #424
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Not emotion fact. It's factually the Irish language, called so because it is of Ireland. Pretty basic stuff.

    And if anyone was arguing that we should rename it, then maybe this would be relevant.


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    #425
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    blanch152 wrote: »
    The big issue is the amount of time spent on teaching it at primary level. The 35-40 minutes per day could be spent on science or a European language, either of which would be of greater benefit.

    Both religion and Irish should be optional subjects after school, we can then assess the real interest in the language.

    Irish is the primary language of the state and as such will continue to play a major part part in primary and secondary education. If you wish to lead a campaign to repeal article 8 of the Constitution then work away but I would imagine there would be little appetite to remove that particular article


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    #426
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,237 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    zapitastas wrote: »
    Irish is the primary language of the state

    That does not reflect reality.

    And I think you'd be surprised if it did go to a vote - only a few years ago political commentators were saying that repealing the eighth amendment was impossible. People are sick of the waste and the hypocrisy.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #427
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    That does not reflect reality.

    And I think you'd be surprised if it did go to a vote - only a few years ago political commentators were saying that repealing the eighth amendment was impossible. People are sick of the waste and the hypocrisy.

    It is actually reality though in that Irish is the official and primary language of the state. English has a secondary status. Have you any basis for your belief that their would be support for removinf article 8 it is it just a feeling you have


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    #428
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    blanch152 wrote: »
    The big issue is the amount of time spent on teaching it at primary level. The 35-40 minutes per day could be spent on science or a European language, either of which would be of greater benefit.

    Both religion and Irish should be optional subjects after school, we can then assess the real interest in the language.


    When you speak English (as nearly everyone does in Europe), needing a European language isn't that important. If you want a language that is beneficial to the economy, Chinese might be of more use.


    Knowlege doesn't do anyone any harm. Religion should be mandatory because it is the cause of so many wars.


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    #429
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,237 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    zapitastas wrote: »
    It is actually reality though in that Irish is the official and primary language of the state.

    That's what the constitution says, but it doesn't reflect the reality of Ireland today. It didn't even reflect the reality of Ireland when it was introduced.

    Have you any basis for your belief that their would be support for removinf article 8 it is it just a feeling you have

    It's a debate that we need to have, along with the excessive cost and dismal failure of Irish language promotion, especially compulsory Irish teaching. But when the Irish language lobby lose the rag at any suggestion that we even make Irish optional at Leaving Cert, and the politicians cave in every time, that discussion isn't going to be allowed to happen.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #430
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    I am not arguing that it shouldn't be. What I am saying the amount of money spent on Irish in schools should be reduced. The reason for this is that the vast majority of people who learn it schools will never engage meaningfully with the language once they leave school. They do it because they have to which doesn't help the language. Perfect if you want to remind people of their heritage, a disaster if you want to keep the language alive. Actual Irish speakers struggle to access government services in their chosen language. If you want to keep Irish alive you need to support Irish speakers first and foremost.

    Sticking to a 100 old strategy is stupid. It didn't work in the 30's and 40's when Ireland was a relatively closed country. It will not work in modern Ireland which is one of the most open economies in the world. Never mind companies like Netflix and HBO with production budgets that dwarf what is spent on Irish.

    I know speakers, who learned in Irish schools ans still speak it and socialise with other speakers. They are not forced. I know adults who returned to learning the language under their own volition.
    As I said I would only have it compulsory up to Junior cert. That way everyone is introduced to it and come their Leaving cert years they can decided what they take based on chosen career path or preference.
    I think a lot of people, myself included, have hang ups about Irish and how it was forced upon them. Then there are those with political hang ups.
    I believe we need look at it as a language that's important to our culture and heritage first. Even if nobody spoke it I'd still feel the same way.
    I think TG4 is a great thing to have and I would take funding on an organisation/case by case basis.


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    #431
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    That's what the constitution says, but it doesn't reflect the reality of Ireland today. It didn't even reflect the reality of Ireland when it was introduced.




    It's a debate that we need to have, along with the excessive cost and dismal failure of Irish language promotion, especially compulsory Irish teaching. But when the Irish language lobby lose the rag at any suggestion that we even make Irish optional at Leaving Cert, and the politicians cave in every time, that discussion isn't going to be allowed to happen.

    As it is the primary language of the state then it should be mandatory at junior and leaving certificate level. To remove it then a debate about removing article 8 from the constitution needs to be had.


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    #432
    madbeanman
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭madbeanman


    zapitastas wrote: »
    As it is the primary language of the state then it should be mandatory at junior and leaving certificate level. To remove it then a debate about removing article 8 from the constitution needs to be had.

    I think this is where I fall on the issue. If it’s in the constitution then we can’t continue to neglect it or else the Government are not fullfilling their duty (the point of this thread) If you want it out of he constitution then campaign for it and win a democratic vote.

    However, there is another layer to this issue that shouldn’t be forgotten. There is a question to be answered when a privileged majority vote on the revocation of the rights of a minority. Is it entirely fair for a primarily monolingual English speaking hegemonic majority to decide the rights of a minority.
    (God Bless Anglophones but they are often not great when it comes to language rights because it’s hard to empathize)


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    #433
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    madbeanman wrote: »
    I think this is where I fall on the issue. If it’s in the constitution then we can’t continue to neglect it or else the Government are not fullfilling their duty (the point of this thread) If you want it out of he constitution then campaign for it and win a democratic vote.

    However, there is another layer to this issue that shouldn’t be forgotten. There is a question to be answered when a privileged majority vote on the revocation of the rights of a minority. Is it entirely fair for a primarily monolingual English speaking hegemonic majority to decide the rights of a minority.
    (God Bless Anglophones but they are often not great when it comes to language rights because it’s hard to empathize)

    Maybe the Irish need ethnic level status protection? I mean if some of the Irish are trying to make a case against their own culture? Yes it's a mite ridiculous but look at it as an ethnic group being told their language isn't as important as they might think.


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    #434
    Frank Castle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 134 ✭✭Frank Castle


    I think the problem is the disconnect from we currently have from our heritage. Maybe we are embarrassed of our past?

    Most of our heritage seems to be remembered from the perspective of rural Ireland. Modern Day Ireland, especially Dublin, probably struggles to relate to this. And this doesn't help at all to promote our heritage or language, not to mention the fact that we want to forget about those times as we were under the heel of the british.

    One way to promote it is the Government could supply free learning courses in all communities and give a tax credit to those who attain a certain standard (say around 500 or 1000 tax credit).

    These are small incentives that will help push people who want to learn, yet will allow people who do not want to learn to avoid it without feeling they are missing out or being forced.

    It should still be compulsory in schools, but the method of teaching it does need to evolve. Part of the reason there is such a distaste it how poorly taught the language is while being compulsory, so its a vicious cycle of bad teaching and no learning.


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    #435
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    madbeanman wrote: »
    There is a question to be answered when a privileged majority vote on the revocation of the rights of a minority. Is it entirely fair for a primarily monolingual English speaking hegemonic majority to decide the rights of a minority.
    (God Bless Anglophones but they are often not great when it comes to language rights because it’s hard to empathize)

    You can't have this both ways, either
    1) Removing the primacy of the Irish language will effect the rights of the minority, in which case you have a privileged minority (privileged in that their minority customs have primacy in the Constitution) deciding the obligations of a majority.
    or
    2) Removing it won't effect the rights of a minority to keep speaking that language because of course it won't people can speak whatever language they want, no-one is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to. Not forcing kids to pretend to learn Irish in school will in no way stop people in the gaeltacht speaking Irish to each other, if they so choose.


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    #436
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Maybe the Irish need ethnic level status protection? I mean if some of the Irish are trying to make a case against their own culture? Yes it's a mite ridiculous but look at it as an ethnic group being told their language isn't as important as they might think.

    And? Telling someone that their opinion of themselves is not shared with the vast majority of the country is all of a sudden an attack on an ethnicity? Maybe the people who speak Irish need to get over themselves and start looking at it objectively.


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    #437
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    And? Telling someone that their opinion of themselves is not shared with the vast majority of the country is all of a sudden an attack on an ethnicity? Maybe the people who speak Irish need to get over themselves and start looking at it objectively.

    You're misinterpreting and responding to your own conclusion.
    I'm pointing out that any elements trying to tell an ethnic group what constitutes their particular ethnic make up would not be tolerated.
    There's good argument for allocation of funding but that's it. I would suggest anyone born into being Irish, needs to get over the fact that there is an Irish language. They are welcome to take on the attributes of other cultures, we all do that to some degree.


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    #438
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    You can't have this both ways, either
    1) Removing the primacy of the Irish language will effect the rights of the minority, in which case you have a privileged minority (privileged in that their minority customs have primacy in the Constitution) deciding the obligations of a majority.
    or
    2) Removing it won't effect the rights of a minority to keep speaking that language because of course it won't people can speak whatever language they want, no-one is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to. Not forcing kids to pretend to learn Irish in school will in no way stop people in the gaeltacht speaking Irish to each other, if they so choose.

    How much appetite is there to remove article 8 from the Constitution if it came to a vote? How much appetite is there to even put it to a vote apart from a couple of people on boards?


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    #439
    madbeanman
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭madbeanman


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    You can't have this both ways, either
    1) Removing the primacy of the Irish language will effect the rights of the minority, in which case you have a privileged minority (privileged in that their minority customs have primacy in the Constitution) deciding the obligations of a majority.
    or
    2) Removing it won't effect the rights of a minority to keep speaking that language because of course it won't people can speak whatever language they want, no-one is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to. Not forcing kids to pretend to learn Irish in school will in no way stop people in the gaeltacht speaking Irish to each other, if they so choose.

    Well this ignores what (some) Irish speakers are fighting for. Obviously I dont speak for all Irish speakers.

    No one is fighting for the right to speak a language. Anyone has the right to speak a language in Ireland, any language they wish.

    Removing the status of Irish from the constitution would be another blow to the language and would obviously have a knock on effect on its status within the society and legislation. If not then what would be the point of having the vote in the first place? I presume you would also like some defunding of the Údarás and TG4 (etc. etc.) and the ending of the (semi)-bilingual policy of the state? (at least to some extent)

    So you saying that the removal of Irish from the Constitution would still entitle people to continue speaking it ignores how minority langauges work. If you dont have a vibrant and supportive community and State interventions and supports it becomes harder to raise children through Irish to full bilingualsim, it becomes harder to train more people with skills in Irish, it becomes harder to prevent further erosion of the Gaeltachts. Everything becomes harder.

    For the English speaking community learning Irish in school is a means to engage with (or not as the case may be) an aspect of Irish culture. If you take away supports from the language (which is what a vote to remove the constitutional status of Irish would be a mandate to do) then you are literally threatening the existence of the language as a spoken tongue. And you may be totally fine with that, but its not fair to say that it isnt a grave threat to the existence of the Irish speaking community.


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    #440
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,280 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Maybe the Irish need ethnic level status protection? I mean if some of the Irish are trying to make a case against their own culture? Yes it's a mite ridiculous but look at it as an ethnic group being told their language isn't as important as they might think.

    Are you trying to suggest that those Irish people who do not speak Irish every day are somehow less Irish? That is the only rational interpretation of your posting on this issue.

    The vast majority of people in Ireland do not speak Irish every day, they speak English. Their culture is Christy Moore, Van Morrison, U2, Christy Brown, Jack Butler Yeats, Louis de Broqcquy, Colin Farrell, Father Ted, Colm Meaney, the Dubs in Croker, Furey Brothers, The Corrs, The Cranberries, Moving Hearts and I could go on and on and on with thousands and thousands of Irish cultural references that have nothing to do with the Irish language as opposed to the very very small numbers of people speaking Irish. In fact, I could nearly find as many English-speaking cultural references that are widely-embraced as there are daily Irish speakers!!!

    It is the dyed-in-the-wool traditionalists like yourself who see Irish culture as springing from the Irish language or being subservient to the Irish language who are making a case against their own culture.

    The Irish language is a very small minority part of Irish culture today. It is a significant minority part of our rich and broad heritage.


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    #441
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,280 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    You're misinterpreting and responding to your own conclusion.
    I'm pointing out that any elements trying to tell an ethnic group what constitutes their particular ethnic make up would not be tolerated.
    There's good argument for allocation of funding but that's it. I would suggest anyone born into being Irish, needs to get over the fact that there is an Irish language. They are welcome to take on the attributes of other cultures, we all do that to some degree.


    I disagree completely. Here are two examples of ethnic groups being told that what constitutes their particular ethnic make up would not be tolerated.

    I am perfectly happy to tell any African tribe that their cultural practice of female genital mutilation would not be tolerated in Ireland.

    I am also happy to tell any Travelling Community that their cultural practice of not educating their children is not tolerated in Ireland.

    If you are happy to allow FGM be made legal in Ireland and for Traveller children to stay at home rather than school, be brave enough to say it or else admit you are wrong.


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    #442
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,237 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    madbeanman wrote: »
    For the English speaking community learning Irish in school is a means to engage with (or not as the case may be) an aspect of Irish culture. If you take away supports from the language (which is what a vote to remove the constitutional status of Irish would be a mandate to do) then you are literally threatening the existence of the language as a spoken tongue.

    How does forcing children in Dublin or Cork with no interest in the Irish language continue it right up to Leaving Cert benefit the existence of spoken Irish in the Gaeltacht?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #443
    SmoothMalts
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭SmoothMalts


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    How does forcing children in Dublin or Cork with no interest in the Irish language continue it right up to Leaving Cert benefit the existence of spoken Irish in the Gaeltacht?

    It strengthens the roots of the language outside of the Gaeltacht which leads to a increase in the actual usefulness of the language spoken within it. That in turn would likely slow the shrinking of the Gaeltachts as the people living there would be less inclined to turn away from the language they grew up with.


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    #444
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    SmoothMalts wrote: »
    It strengthens the roots of the language outside of the Gaeltacht which leads to a increase in the actual usefulness of the language spoken within it. That in turn would likely slow the shrinking of the Gaeltachts as the people living there would be less inclined to turn away from the language they grew up with.
    As long as we're going with circular arguments, don't forget that having the mandatory Irish requirement in Dublin and Cork provides well paid teaching jobs for people from the Gaeltacht with their authentic accents, and those teachers are badly needed because otherwise the city kids would be learning Dublinese Gaeilge or even worse, Kark Gaeilge.


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    #445
    SmoothMalts
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭SmoothMalts


    recedite wrote: »
    As long as we're going with circular arguments, don't forget that having the mandatory Irish requirement in Dublin and Cork provides well paid teaching jobs for people from the Gaeltacht with their authentic accents, and those teachers are badly needed because otherwise the city kids would be learning Dublinese Gaeilge or even worse, Kark Gaeilge.

    I don't understand your point of circular arguments, seeing as my reply was my first on the entire site, nevermind the thread. Besides, he was asking a question and I answered it.

    Anyway, with regard to the Gaeltacht accents, there are some die-hard 'Gaeligophiles' that do believe that the whole country should be a Gaeltacht... in reality I think that the best-case scenario would be that everyone is speaking it almost like a second language, like the Welsh do with Welsh. So actually I wouldn't mind the Gaeltachts dieing out if the whole country spoke Irish competently at the same time.


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    #446
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,237 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    SmoothMalts wrote: »
    It strengthens the roots of the language outside of the Gaeltacht

    How does it do that? Like I said, compelling kids with no interest (and their parents have no interest either.)
    The evidence of the last 95 years is that this damages the language rather than strengthening it.

    But as recedite pointed out, taxpayer funded sinecures for Gaeltacht residents appears to be the order of the day, however useless the task is they're given (Official Languages Act says hello.)
    which leads to a increase in the actual usefulness of the language spoken within it.

    How does some 15 year old in Dublin or Cork deciding to keep or drop Irish affect the usefulness of the language in the Gaeltacht?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #447
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    I'm pointing out that any elements trying to tell an ethnic group what constitutes their particular ethnic make up would not be tolerated.

    That's exactly what you are doing! You are telling non-Irish-speaking Irish people that their ethnic make up must inherently include the Irish language.

    And weren't you trying to claim that this isn't about the self-importance of Irish speakers or "what makes us different to the Brits"? And yet here you are defining Irish speaking as an identifier of Irish ethnicity. And that non-Irish-speaking Irish people are a separate ethnic group attacking the ethnic minority of Irish speakers. You know that I was joking when I suggested that you were going to start accusing us of ethnic cleansing, I didn't think you were actually going to do that!

    It's good, though, that you have stopped pretending this isn't all about self importance, maybe the discussion can actually move on.


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    #448
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    zapitastas wrote: »
    How much appetite is there to remove article 8 from the Constitution if it came to a vote? How much appetite is there to even put it to a vote apart from a couple of people on boards?

    Which is an answer to my post how?
    Which is it:
    1) Removing the primacy of the Irish language will effect the rights of the minority, in which case you have a privileged minority (privileged in that their minority customs have primacy in the Constitution) deciding the obligations of a majority.
    or
    2) Removing it won't effect the rights of a minority to keep speaking that language because of course it won't people can speak whatever language they want, no-one is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to. Not forcing kids to pretend to learn Irish in school will in no way stop people in the gaeltacht speaking Irish to each other, if they so choose.


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    #449
    madbeanman
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭madbeanman


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Which is an answer to my post how?
    Which is it:
    1) Removing the primacy of the Irish language will effect the rights of the minority, in which case you have a privileged minority (privileged in that their minority customs have primacy in the Constitution) deciding the obligations of a majority.
    or
    2) Removing it won't effect the rights of a minority to keep speaking that language because of course it won't people can speak whatever language they want, no-one is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to. Not forcing kids to pretend to learn Irish in school will in no way stop people in the gaeltacht speaking Irish to each other, if they so choose.

    You ignored my comment which rebuts this.


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    #450
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    madbeanman wrote: »
    Removing the status of Irish from the constitution would be another blow to the language

    At this stage, it would mostly just be a blow to those who extract funding from the government in the guise of supporting the language.
    madbeanman wrote: »
    I presume you would also like some defunding of the Údarás and TG4 (etc. etc.) and the ending of the (semi)-bilingual policy of the state? (at least to some extent)

    No entity should get funding simply because they support the language. There is funding for arts and history and funding should come from that if it is applicable. I don't agree that RTE as a whole should be publicly funded either mind, both it and TG4 should be allowed live or die as a private television company.
    madbeanman wrote: »
    So you saying that the removal of Irish from the Constitution would still entitle people to continue speaking it ignores how minority langauges work. If you dont have a vibrant and supportive community and State interventions and supports it becomes harder to raise children through Irish to full bilingualsim, it becomes harder to train more people with skills in Irish, it becomes harder to prevent further erosion of the Gaeltachts. Everything becomes harder.

    And even with government funding, all of that is still hard because the majority of Irish people do not really care about the Irish language. Didn't you have a conversation already with blanch152 about how Welsh is done in the opposite way, not with government direction but with community driven projects and how that actually works?
    madbeanman wrote: »
    For the English speaking community learning Irish in school is a means to engage with (or not as the case may be) an aspect of Irish culture.

    tenor.gif
    You keep throwing out that "it's part of our culture" as if that means anything, it doesn't. Firstly, because for a vast majority of Irish people it is not part of modern culture, outside of a badly taught subject suffered throughout school. Secondly, just because something was or even is part of our culture doesn't mean we should inherently keep doing it. Ireland has a big culture of binge drinking, we really need to get over that, despite it being "part of our culture". Culture is just another word for "stuff people do" and is no defence for anything.


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    #451
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    madbeanman wrote: »
    You ignored my comment which rebuts this.

    Give me a minute to type out an answer :pac:.

    Although now that I am finished, you actually seem to agree with my first point.
    You argued that removing the primacy of the Irish language would have a negative effect on Irish speakers ability to speak Irish (make it harder) therefore those minority of Irish speakers should get to keep their all their privileges including that of primacy in the constitution, thus dictating the obligations of the majority to pander to the primacy.

    In which case you really have to ask yourself "Is it entirely fair for a bilingual Irish speaking hegemonic minority to decide the rights of the non-Irish-speaking majority?"


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