Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

jacothelad · 22-10-2018 07:41PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Isnt Dundon scrum coach? Dont know how you could say lack of bulk is reason for scrum being poor. Mix of maybe technique(know a few very good scrum coaches... will ask them next time i see them) and other reasons..
Is Henderson world class? Warwick may not be a top class option but necessary squad player. No? Sexton has potential but still is only an u19 this season. Wouldnt want to rush him

Yeah. Way too much made of schools cups .....

In some ways would it not be better for him if he was able to play some AIL this season as well as schools rugby? AIL would be far better standard than any of the friendlies he'll play with his school.

He'll be irish qualified at end of his contract in 2020 so why wouldnt he be allowed stay?

He has played for S.A. so he can't ever be I.Q.

The Lost Sheep · 22-10-2018 07:46PM

jacothelad wrote: »

He has played for S.A. so he can't ever be I.Q.

Thanks. Not sure why thought he hadnt been capped.....

launish116 · 22-10-2018 07:48PM

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Who is looking after the Scrum and Set Piece?
Is the scrum an issue with lack of Bulk?, poor technique? or simply players don't get it. To be the second worst scrum in Pro14 is fairly shocking. You'd think its something they would be pressing hard to fix. Teams can almost count on us c0cking up on our own feed. They don't even have to work hard to get possession from Ulster

Personally I think we're probably not to bad technically compared to any other team. We're just being over powered.
Bulk and power seems to be the issue and this is something we can't blame the props solely for. I think we're seriously lacking bulk beside Henderson in the row. How I'd love to have a 2nd row like Quinn Roux adding weight to the scrum.
Without a doubt a Loosehead and 2nd row/enforcer type player should be at the top of the shopping list.

bilston · 22-10-2018 09:22PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Who is looking after the Scrum and Set Piece?
Is the scrum an issue with lack of Bulk?, poor technique? or simply players don't get it. To be the second worst scrum in Pro14 is fairly shocking. You'd think its something they would be pressing hard to fix. Teams can almost count on us c0cking up on our own feed. They don't even have to work hard to get possession from Ulster

Isnt Dundon scrum coach? Dont know how you could say lack of bulk is reason for scrum being poor. Mix of maybe technique(know a few very good scrum coaches... will ask them next time i see them) and other reasons..

bilston wrote: »

Our recruitment for next season should be interesting.

We only have two NIQs this season in Coetzee and Deysel, Speight is here until Christmas and I believe Schalk Van Der Merwe is a project player and all contracts are up at the end of the season.

The hope is Coetzee signs a new contract, if he does we still have space for at least 2 NIQs, maybe 3 depending on the rules.

LHP is an obvious area of need. We did have two age group prospects at LH in Callum Reid and John McKee, unfortuantely Reid doesn't seem interested (fair play, entirely his choice) and McKee cleared off to Leinster to become a hooker...

Warwick isn't up to scruff, McCall is permanent crocked and O'Sullivan looks decent, but is very inexperienced. So a NIQ LH has to be top of the agenda.

Second Row could do with strengthening. Hendy is world class and O'Connor never lets us down. Treadwell is still worth persevering with even if he frustrates the hell out of me. I'm not sure about the youngsters, Dalton hasn't kicked on yet and Thompson hasn't featured either.

Back row may not be too bad provided we retain Coetzee. It would be come if one or two of our academy players started to step up. Marcus Rea and Aaron Hall for example. Their progress will probably be the key in deciding if we need to strengthen here or not.

I don't see any half back signings. Despite my misgivings, Shanahan is proving himself worthy of a contract. I still have higher hopes for Stewart though. Burns, McPhillips and particularly Lowry at 10 is fine. We'll maybe find out whether Bruce Houston is any use as well.

Centre and back three should be ok. We have brought through a few youngsters this season and have a couple more to come in Stewart Moore and Aaron Sexton next season as well

So get on the look out for a LHP and a second row Bryn.

Is Henderson world class? Warwick may not be a top class option but necessary squad player. No? Sexton has potential but still is only an u19 this season. Wouldnt want to rush him

jacothelad wrote: »

Sexton is a fantastic prospect......We all know about those though. JJH and Billy Dardis being prime examples of hyped players who fail to deliver. There are many more.

Yeah. Way too much made of schools cups .....

bilston wrote: »

There are no guarantees, but he has lit the Celtic Cup up, so next step is the Pro 14 (well for him it's the Schools Cup) so we will find out.

In some ways would it not be better for him if he was able to play some AIL this season as well as schools rugby? AIL would be far better standard than any of the friendlies he'll play with his school.

awec wrote: »

Hopefully the jokers in D4 let us keep Coetzee.

He'll be irish qualified at end of his contract in 2020 so why wouldnt he be allowed stay?

Yes...Henderson is world class. But we can obviously have the never ending debate over that actually means. But can he compete against the best second rows in the world...yes he can...

Anyway, in Sexton, I was listening to a podcast last week and they were discussing this and apparently Sexton won't be allowed to play AIL this season, but will probably play for Ulster against Uruguay in a couple of weeks. He will play for his school after Christmas and whatever Irish rep team he gets picked for. Apparently the main priority is ensuring he doesn't risk his academic studies. He will be doing his A Levels in June.

Personally I'd throw him into the AIL. Presumably he'd play for Bangor and they're in 2C (I think) so it would hardly be Celtic Cup level.

awec · 22-10-2018 09:29PM

Presumably the no AIL thing is because of his school?

The Lost Sheep · 22-10-2018 09:52PM

bilston wrote: »

Yes...Henderson is world class. But we can obviously have the never ending debate over that actually means. But can he compete against the best second rows in the world...yes he can...

Ok. Wouldnt see him as world class in my terms but ....

Anyway, in Sexton, I was listening to a podcast last week and they were discussing this and apparently Sexton won't be allowed to play AIL this season, but will probably play for Ulster against Uruguay in a couple of weeks. He will play for his school after Christmas and whatever Irish rep team he gets picked for. Apparently the main priority is ensuring he doesn't risk his academic studies. He will be doing his A Levels in June.

Personally I'd throw him into the AIL. Presumably he'd play for Bangor and they're in 2C (I think) so it would hardly be Celtic Cup level.

That would be a great shame if schools cant over rule that. If he was in Connacht/some Leinster/Munster schools he could do it and it wouldnt affect academics.
I would agree. AIL for Bangor would be far more beneficial than going back playing lots of friendlies for his school team.

awec wrote: »

Presumably the no AIL thing is because of his school?

Yeah the schools limit you and if you play more than 2 AIL games you're not allowed play in the schools cup.

Hands Like Flippers · 22-10-2018 10:22PM

Mmm. Are you sure 2C is a better standard than the better schools rugby? Bigger, bulkier yes but guys I talk to who have gone straight from school to Ballymena and other clubs better than Bangor say it isn't faster or better just bigger guys.

Plus the guy probably wants to play with his mates from school. Enjoying it is a big part of it.

Plus he doesn't run the pitch v often in schools rugby so personally I would let him enjoy it for another year.

Dubinusa · 22-10-2018 10:27PM

If Henderson was an Aussie, guess who would be the 1st name on the teamsheet.
If he was English, he'd make the matchday 23. He'd most likely partner Launchbury to start the match.
If he was Scottish, I think he starts easy. Definitely in the 23.
He'd start for Wales too.
He probably would struggle to make the kiwis,as Retallick is better and Whiteford is marginally better. I think he makes the 23.
Imo, he's in the top 6 in the world.

The Lost Sheep · 22-10-2018 10:39PM

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Mmm. Are you sure 2C is a better standard than the better schools rugby? Bigger, bulkier yes but guys I talk to who have gone straight from school to Ballymena and other clubs better than Bangor say it isn't faster or better just bigger guys.

Plus the guy probably wants to play with his mates from school. Enjoying it is a big part of it.

Plus he doesn't run the pitch v often in schools rugby so personally I would let him enjoy it for another year.

Yes i would overall. Bigger, faster in parts and better by and large.

bilston · 22-10-2018 11:48PM

He could end up playing AIL by the second half of February assuming Bangor GS don't make it past the quarter finals of the Schools Cup.

troyzer · 23-10-2018 07:44AM

bilston wrote: »

Yes...Henderson is world class. But we can obviously have the never ending debate over that actually means. But can he compete against the best second rows in the world...yes he can...

A world class player is one who can get into the New Zealand 23. Henderson is not only not world class, he'll be lucky to get into the Ireland 23 going forward.

Squidgy Black · 23-10-2018 07:55AM

There is absolutely zero chance Henderson doesn't at least make the 23.

Tadgh Beirne isn't going to take his spot, and before anyone says Beirne can play 6, so can Henderson.

People forget that this is a man who was chosen for the lions last season.

troyzer · 23-10-2018 07:57AM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

There is absolutely zero chance Henderson doesn't at least make the 23.

Tadgh Beirne isn't going to take his spot, and before anyone says Beirne can play 6, so can Henderson.

People forget that this is a man who was chosen for the lions last season.

For combination reasons, I think that Henderson is a better fit. But Beirne is the better player.

He has an entire year to push Henderson out. He's not safe at all.

Squidgy Black · 23-10-2018 07:59AM

troyzer wrote: »

For combination reasons, I think that Henderson is a better fit. But Beirne is the better player.

He has an entire year to push Henderson out. He's not safe at all.

Beirne isn't the better player though. He hasn't performed at test level at all yet. He's been fairly middle of the road so far with Munster, people are completely over-hyping him.

troyzer · 23-10-2018 08:05AM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

For combination reasons, I think that Henderson is a better fit. But Beirne is the better player.

He has an entire year to push Henderson out. He's not safe at all.

Beirne isn't the better player though. He hasn't performed at test level at all yet. He's been fairly middle of the road so far with Munster, people are completely over-hyping him.

He's been excellent at Munster. He took a few weeks to look settled but he's back to his player of the year level from last year. Man of the match performance against Exeter and he was quality against Gloucester as well.

Henderson is a better ball carrier and probably a better scrummager, but Beirne is a far superior defender and a better lineout operator.

He also runs great lines. If he can add more physicality to his game I think he'll push Henderson out. He's so dynamic.

As far as the Lions comment goes by the way, Henderson wasn't in any of the test 23s. He was a midweek player which doesn't really mean much.

awec · 23-10-2018 08:34AM

Henderson and Ryan will be Ireland’s most common lock duo.

Don’t know why we are talking about Beirne.

troyzer · 23-10-2018 08:37AM

awec wrote: »

Henderson and Ryan will be Ireland’s most common lock duo.

Don’t know why we are talking about Beirne.

Because Beirne might have something to say about a potential Beirne/Ryan duo.

awec · 23-10-2018 08:41AM

troyzer wrote: »

Because Beirne might have something to say about a potential Beirne/Ryan duo.

I’m sure we’ll see that sometimes too.

Scythica · 23-10-2018 08:42AM

troyzer wrote: »

awec wrote: »

Henderson and Ryan will be Ireland’s most common lock duo.

Don’t know why we are talking about Beirne.

Because Beirne might have something to say about a potential Beirne/Ryan duo.

He can talk all he likes - Hendo is a better player and near enough is playing out of his skin to just keep the Ulster pack in touching distance of the opposition.

troyzer · 23-10-2018 08:44AM

Scythica wrote: »

He can talk all he likes - Hendo is a better player and near enough is playing out of his skin to just keep the Ulster pack in touching distance of the opposition.

Henderson is an incredible player.

But in my own humble opinion, Beirne is slightly more incredible. And I say that as a Leinster fan salty over the fact that we let him go.

stl.ire · 23-10-2018 09:01AM

The big knock on Bernie for Ireland is probably size. Joe seems to like his 2nd rows as big as possible (see Roux). Henderson has that natural advantage over Bernie, although Bernie is excellent and offers fantastic skill levels and versatility. Long term Kleyn may be more of a threat to Henderson than Bernie for this simple reason.

troyzer · 23-10-2018 09:15AM

stl.ire wrote: »

The big knock on Bernie for Ireland is probably size. Joe seems to like his 2nd rows as big as possible (see Roux). Henderson has that natural advantage over Bernie, although Bernie is excellent and offers fantastic skill levels and versatility. Long term Kleyn may be more of a threat to Henderson than Bernie for this simple reason.

Henderson is 3cm taller and five kilos heavier. It's not an enormous gulf. The size difference is much smaller than Henderson/Ryan and I don't think anyone is arguing that Henderson gets picked over Ryan.

Although he is a more physical ball carrier than Beirne.

Still, you can't ignore his poaching ability. It's next level and the fact that he's a lock makes it that much more valuable. Locks are rarely prolific poachers.

I think they'll share the role if I'm honest. Henderson for the more brutal, physical encounters and Beirne for the looser games where there's a lot of scope for poaching and line breaks.

Paul Smeenus · 23-10-2018 09:47AM

troyzer wrote: »

Scythica wrote: »

He can talk all he likes - Hendo is a better player and near enough is playing out of his skin to just keep the Ulster pack in touching distance of the opposition.

Henderson is an incredible player.

But in my own humble opinion, Beirne is slightly more incredible. And I say that as a Leinster fan salty over the fact that we let him go.

Leinster fan thinks Leinster man is better player. Wants extra credit.

Henderson isn't in great form just at the minute, but he has put in some unbelievable performances at inernational level. We'll see what Beirne is capable of. Someone poster the drop goal that we won the France game with. Guess who caught our own restart, sprinting up after 79 minutes?

Former Former · 23-10-2018 10:00AM

troyzer wrote: »

Henderson is an incredible player.

But in my own humble opinion, Beirne is slightly more incredible. And I say that as a Leinster fan salty over the fact that we let him go.

I suppose the question is, if he'd stayed at Leinster, would he be the player he is now? He left in 2016 with four senior appearances all from the bench and, let's be honest, none of us were that bothered about him leaving.

But is he more incredible than Henderson? Henderson has 40 caps for Ireland, three Six Nations medals and a Lions tour under his belt. Beirne has 25 minutes (at blindside flanker) off the bench in Australia, and he's a month older than Henderson.

It's great to have more options in the squad but we need to see Beirne in action before we judge him.

Burkie1203 · 24-10-2018 09:53AM

https://twitter.com/UlsterRugby/status/1055018851438604288?s=19

mfceiling · 24-10-2018 09:59AM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/UlsterRugby/status/1055018851438604288?s=19

Another one bites the dust.

Eod100 · 24-10-2018 10:02AM

mfceiling wrote: »

Another one bites the dust.

Seems to be a lot of retirements in rugby lately.

Buer · 24-10-2018 10:03AM

The article doesn't mention injury as being the reason for his retirement. Has he just had enough and Ulster are happy to cancel the contract?

launish116 · 24-10-2018 10:03AM

Being thumped by Munster maybe was the last straw.... wonder will we get a replacement to see out season?

troyzer · 24-10-2018 10:04AM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Leinster fan thinks Leinster man is better player. Wants extra credit.

Henderson isn't in great form just at the minute, but he has put in some unbelievable performances at inernational level. We'll see what Beirne is capable of. Someone poster the drop goal that we won the France game with. Guess who caught our own restart, sprinting up after 79 minutes?

Fair point. I was just pointing out that if anything I'd be inclined to say he was **** and I'm glad we're rid of him.

You can't catch a 79 minute restart if you're not on the pitch and it wasn't Beirne's fault he wasn't there.

Former Former wrote: »

I suppose the question is, if he'd stayed at Leinster, would he be the player he is now? He left in 2016 with four senior appearances all from the bench and, let's be honest, none of us were that bothered about him leaving.

But is he more incredible than Henderson? Henderson has 40 caps for Ireland, three Six Nations medals and a Lions tour under his belt. Beirne has 25 minutes (at blindside flanker) off the bench in Australia, and he's a month older than Henderson.

It's great to have more options in the squad but we need to see Beirne in action before we judge him.

As I just said, it's not really fair to compare international records as Beirne doesn't have any through no fault of his own.

I agree we need to see him in action before we judge him, within an Irish context anyway. He's already a better Pro14 player, he'd get ahead of him in an all Pro14 team.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

Comments