Is done deal a no No for buying a fog

Choc Chip · 29-08-2018 06:46PM

Btw, that's not meant to be pushing a rescue agenda, I've no issue with buying pups from responsible breeders, I just know that I'd be a lot more confident with my terrier or current foster with kids v a potential pup. If i was going for a pup I'd have to be very confident in the breeder.

whitesheep · 30-08-2018 09:43PM

If one buys a rescue dog are you not buying and ex puppy farm dog? And you'd have the same problems if you got it from a puppy farm? And maybe somehow indirectly helping the puppy farms? I wonder are people quicker to abandon dogs knowing they will be picked up by a rescue centre. Maybe it's a stretch but worth discussion??
Think I'll just wait it out for a reputable breeder to have one available.

em_cat · 30-08-2018 10:33PM

whitesheep wrote: »

If one buys a rescue dog are you not buying and ex puppy farm dog? And you'd have the same problems if you got it from a puppy farm? And maybe somehow indirectly helping the puppy farms? I wonder are people quicker to abandon dogs knowing they will be picked up by a rescue centre. Maybe it's a stretch but worth discussion??
Think I'll just wait it out for a reputable breeder to have one available.

First and foremost you don’t buy a rescue dog, rescues do ask for rehoming fees to cover the vaccines, spay/neuter, food, any medical treatment and many other things. A lot of rescues are volunteer staffed with charity status but get little to no government funding. So the 120€ being asked for is pittance.

TBH most people who are dedicated to rescue would choose that there wasn’t a need for pounds and rescues.

I’m not against breeding for conservation of a breed, but do not and will not support breeding indiscriminately or breeding for greed.

I have no idea how much a KCav puppy costs but I do know they are one of the most puppy farmed breeds and some very expensive vet bills in later years.

Trasna1 · 30-08-2018 10:38PM

em_cat wrote: »

Please please do not impulse buy a K Cav especially without proof of the relavent health tests, the K Cav is one of the breeds that suffers genetically from DCM, something like a 50/50 chance that develops it. It generally shows up post 2 years so although not something than can be tested like PRA or other diseases, it is something that can be qualified by parentage. This is not something a DD or GT seller will care about.

No one can guarantee that one breed vs another is better with children. That is dependant on how it reared and how you as a parent teach your children. I don’t mean to sound patronising, I just come across so many children who have no idea how to behave around dogs.

The King Charles is so inbred it shouldn't be bred anymore.

Zapperzy · 31-08-2018 01:17AM

Any vet or nurse will be able to tell you how common heart problems are in cavaliers. It's sad because they're such sweethearts of dogs.

A girl at work was telling me about her cavalier which I think was about 7 or 8, and I asked had he had any issues with his heart yet. Surprisingly he hadn't and she had never heard of this high prevalence of heart conditions in this breed before but I don't think she took me too seriously. She came back to me about 3 months later absolutely devastated because he had been put down because of heart failure, she asked how could I possibly have predicted it.

Edited to add: I'd be nervous of pups around children, too excitable and nippy. We had a rescue terrier, got him at 2 years old. While he never lived with children he was always very gentle with visiting kids. Least with an older dog you know what temperment your getting.

Captain Flaps · 31-08-2018 09:20AM

whitesheep wrote: »

If one buys a rescue dog are you not buying and ex puppy farm dog? And you'd have the same problems if you got it from a puppy farm? And maybe somehow indirectly helping the puppy farms? I wonder are people quicker to abandon dogs knowing they will be picked up by a rescue centre. Maybe it's a stretch but worth discussion??
Think I'll just wait it out for a reputable breeder to have one available.

If you go onto any rescue site you'll see that most of the dogs are mixed or even undetermined breed. Suggesting people abandon dogs because the rescue will pick it up is silly, if it's surrendered then fair enough but the overwhelming majority of dogs in pounds and rescues are abandoned strays found wandering because the (ex) owner couldn't care less about what happens to them.

whitesheep · 04-09-2018 10:43PM

I'M back again with one more question. Is there a minimum a puppy farm would sell a dog for. I've seen lots of lovely mixed breed for aroundof a terrier euro100. Does that sounds right?
I've read up loads on puppy farms and they truly are horrible places and the last thing I want is to support them.
I've visited one animal shelter and they won't take me because of my open garden. There was nothing there that was suitable anyway, Is there a way around it? My garden is more than suitable. We've had dogs before no problem.

em_cat · 04-09-2018 11:26PM

whitesheep wrote: »

I'M back again with one more question. Is there a minimum a puppy farm would sell a dog for. I've seen lots of lovely mixed breed for aroundof a terrier euro100. Does that sounds right?
I've read up loads on puppy farms and they truly are horrible places and the last thing I want is to support them.
I've visited one animal shelter and they won't take me because of my open garden. There was nothing there that was suitable anyway, Is there a way around it? My garden is more than suitable. We've had dogs before no problem.

OP I’m not sure if there is a standard min/max for puppyfarmed. Some charge the rates reputable breeders may charge and some charge what ever someone is willing to pay.

What is the mix breed? Is it a designer breed, hybrid or some other?

I think it would be safe to assume that if someone is selling on adverts, GT or DD then it is a puppy farm, accidental litter anything other than reputable breeder. Same goes for anyone selling via FB or IG, SnCh or whatever.

Did you give Nearseas, as suggested a ring? Also do you have a vet that may know of a breeder that you could get in touch with?

If you have heart set on a KCav then wouldn’t the wait be worth it?

Slutmonkey57b · 04-09-2018 11:38PM

If you look at any breed with horrific genetic problems, you'll find that it's a direct result of kennel clubs and their (in) breeding policies. Dog breeds which were perfectly healthy 50 years ago are destroyed because some moron in a kennel club decided that (for example) German shepherds should have a slope to their hips.

Get a dog from a rescue centre. Don't buy a dog from anyone for any reason.

ShaShaBear · 05-09-2018 09:10AM

whitesheep wrote: »

I'M back again with one more question. Is there a minimum a puppy farm would sell a dog for. I've seen lots of lovely mixed breed for aroundof a terrier euro100. Does that sounds right?
I've read up loads on puppy farms and they truly are horrible places and the last thing I want is to support them.
I've visited one animal shelter and they won't take me because of my open garden. There was nothing there that was suitable anyway, Is there a way around it? My garden is more than suitable. We've had dogs before no problem.

There are some rescues that are more lenient with their garden policies. For example, there is one here in Monaghan that doesn't require it. However, there is a reason a lot of rescues expect it.
Firstly, a properly fenced in and secure garden reduces the likelihood of the dog being stolen due to easy access. Secondly, it ensures in a rural area that a dog won't be able to access sheep/cattle and potentially cause a lot of trouble and end up dead for it. Thirdly, it eliminates the possibility of the dog wandering and becoming lost. Fourthly, it removes any chances of the dog finding its way under a moving vehicle.

Can you truly and completely guarantee that your "open garden" offers none of these possibilities? Keep in mind, just because it hasn't happened yet, does not mean it cannot happen at all. Really think about it.

storka · 04-10-2018 02:49PM

Hi all- following this thread with interest. Similar situation as OP- stalking DD and other sites in the hope that something reputable will turn up (not sure how I'd know but optimistically hopeful).

My partner and I are looking you a Yorkshire Terrier or Dachshund pup ideally. Partner suffers from allergies and these are both non-shed, also we have a small house so small dog essential. We have two middle aged Yorkies (8 & 12) already and ideally would like a younger dog to integrate with them (one of them can be very anxious but is always fine with other yorkies and has mixed well with a friends dachshund).

We have visited and viewed alot of shelters/rescues but anytime we spot a dog that matches what we are looking for we seem to miss out as others get in first.

Anyone have any contacts for reputable breeders for either would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

cocker5 · 04-10-2018 03:21PM

Back to the original OP - how exactly would / does an open garden work?

Cherry Blossom · 04-10-2018 05:37PM

Neither Dachshunds or Yorkshire terriers are non shed.

Slutmonkey57b · 04-10-2018 05:41PM

There is no such thing as a "non shed“ or hypoallergenic dog breed. Just dogs that get brushed a lot, or ones that don't.

Knine · 04-10-2018 06:43PM

Cherry Blossom wrote: »

Neither Dachshunds or Yorkshire terriers are non shed.

These two breeds are also quite different.

volchitsa · 04-10-2018 08:30PM

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Personally, if it's your first time housing a dog together with your kids, I would stay all kinds of away from a pup. That's a disaster waiting to happen when the nipping rolls in. As well as that, I'd be avoiding any and all dogs that are small - all dogs can be great with kids, but generally the problem is actually the children and their rough attitude with the dogs.

I would stay away from tiny breeds, working dogs (collies, labs, GSDs, spaniels) and most terriers.

So apart from boxers, what does that leave? (Not being sarky here, it's a genuine question.) I'd have thought labs were good, but if they aren't, then surely golden retrievers are the same? So it looks like you're excluding pretty much everything that people normally associate with children?

Also, you say not collies, ie working dogs, so is that all sheepdogs? Because I know collies are often nervous, but maybe other sheepdog might be more laid back with children?

Cedrus · 04-10-2018 09:24PM

There seems to be a lot of confusion about King Charles Spaniels and King Charles Cavalier Spaniels, they are different dogs. Not the same. They do have a shared history but the pedigrees have been separated for generations.

http://www.cavaliers.co.uk/articles/difference%20kcs%20v%20ckcs.htm

The King Charles (with the domed heads and no snout) have inbred potential for terrible ailments but the King Charles Cavaliers (normal dog shaped heads and snouts) do not suffer the same. Of course like any creature, any of them could get sick, as could any of us.

There is always the potential that a non Kennel Club breeder could mix the two together and get a healthy litter but they could just as easily pass on the problems. The idea that Heinz57 dogs are healthier than pedigrees is based on an utter lack of statistics relating to their health issues whereas pedigrees are recorded and tracked. The scandals like the King Charles brains and the GSD dropped hips are provable because the national kennel clubs keep records which can be compared, but the heinz57 defects are just dismissed " we were unlucky", "it was a bad dog".

DBB · 04-10-2018 10:07PM

I don't think there's confusion tbh... King Charles are so, so rare particularly in Ireland. I'm pretty sure that people just shorten the name of the dog they know to be the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, to King Charles. Personally, I chop between King Charles, and Cav when describing the CKCS... As do most people I know in the dog world!
I'm not sure of the stats, but Cavs are hugely prone to heart problems, and I'd suggest coming close to (real!) King Charles in their susceptibility to conditions like syringomyelia.

DBB · 04-10-2018 10:29PM

volchitsa wrote: »

I'd have thought labs were good, but if they aren't, then surely golden retrievers are the same? So it looks like you're excluding pretty much everything that people normally associate with children?

Labs are traditionally great family pets, are are Golden Retrievers!
But... In the past 10+ years, their popularity has done damage to the breed, with all sorts of idiots breeding them with no thought or knowledge of the genetics behind good temperament (and general health)... Actually, just the type of person who sells pups on DD

Many of these breeders I'm sure meant no harm as such... They just didn't/don't have the knowledge needed to produce fab pet dogs. Others are just greedy shysters.
So... If a family wants a lab or retriever pup, I'd absolutely encourage them to go for it, but with the caveat that they really make sure to source a great breeder who's breeding for health and temperament. I generally find that gundogs from working lines fit the bill better than show-line dogs.
I think most gundog breeds are great family pets, again as long as they're from working lines, carefully produced, robustly reared... And usually as long as it's an active family who's going to give the dog a run for his money

I know a fella who breeds fab, fab working springers. But he rears them as if they're going to be pet dogs... Lots of handling, lots of meeting people, spending time in the house with hoovers, washing machines, mad kids. This fella's pups are in huge demand both by lads who want a good working dog, or a field trials dog, and families with kids who just want a safe and fun pet.
I have GSDs that are a couple of generations removed from working line dogs. But since their ancestors' working days, they have been carefully bred for a kindly and placid temperament, removing the sometimes hard-to manage "driviness" of working dogs. They are bombproof. In other words, they are the result of selection to produce great PET dogs... Because that's what it's all about for the vast majority of families. They don't want a Crufts Winner, they don't want a hard working dog. They just want a safe and easy pet.
So, with careful breeder selection, a family can find someone who's producing dogs designed to be pets. If it's one of the co-operative working breeds (gundogs, herders), then there's a long history of genetic selection for co-operativeness too... Though that isn't good enough on its own without good parents and good rearing.

Cedrus · 04-10-2018 10:31PM

DBB wrote: »

I don't think there's confusion tbh... King Charles are so, so rare particularly in Ireland. I'm pretty sure that people just shorten the name of the dog they know to be the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, to King Charles. Personally, I chop between King Charles, and Cav when describing the CKCS... As do most people I know in the dog world!
I'm not sure of the stats, but Cavs are hugely prone to heart problems, and I'd suggest coming close to (real!) King Charles in their susceptibility to conditions like syringomyelia.

I cannot agree, you can chose your own word - confusion, lack of knowledge, whatever. They are different dogs and I have been astounded by colleagues who have cavaliers and worried about the issues affecting KCs when they didn't need to. Dog owners should know as much as possible about their dogs and when researching the breed they are interested in should not be subjected to misinformation and disinformation.

DBB · 04-10-2018 10:38PM

What issues does the King Charles suffer from that the Cav doesn't? I'm not being smart here, I genuinely want to know what conditions you're referring to

I've never met anyone who doesn't know that Cavalier King Charles and King Charles are different breeds tbh... But that's the nature of differing experiences I suppose! My point is that the vast, vast majority of either breed that exist in Ireland are Cavaliers... But people just shorten the name to King Charles. This doesn't mean they're actually confusing the breeds though.

Cedrus · 04-10-2018 11:53PM

DBB wrote: »

What issues does the King Charles suffer from that the Cav doesn't? I'm not being smart here, I genuinely want to know what conditions you're referring to
I've never met anyone who doesn't know that Cavalier King Charles and King Charles are different breeds tbh... But that's the nature of differing experiences I suppose! My point is that the vast, vast majority of either breed that exist in Ireland are Cavaliers... But people just shorten the name to King Charles. This doesn't mean they're actually confusing the breeds though.

DBB I respect that you are heavily involved in the dog scene and respect your knowledge. However, I think you are getting into a 'tis 'tisn't argument with me for no reason.

I am not a vet and will not engage in veterinary arguments with you.

There are plenty of King Charles Spaniels here in Cork but still, I have met many people who think that there is no difference between a KCS and a KCCS. You have not, wonderful. But you think it is fine to perpetuate the confusion. Fine.

Doctors room ghost · 04-10-2018 11:55PM

Get yourself a rescue greyhound.best dog you will ever own.

DBB · 05-10-2018 12:07AM

Cedrus wrote: »

DBB I respect that you are heavily involved in the dog scene and respect your knowledge. However, I think you are getting into a 'tis 'tisn't argument with me for no reason.

I am not a vet and will not engage in veterinary arguments with you.

There are plenty of King Charles Spaniels here in Cork but still, I have met many people who think that there is no difference between a KCS and a KCCS. You have not, wonderful. But you think it is fine to perpetuate the confusion. Fine.

Goodness. I think you're reading a tad too much into what I'm saying. I'm not trying to perpetuate confusion, rather trying to explain why one might think that the general populace believes they're the same breed, when in fact most don't.
You brought up the suggestion that King Charles suffer from various ailments that Cavaliers don't. I simply hoped you might expand on a point you yourself brought up.

sillysmiles · 05-10-2018 02:41PM

Cedrus wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of confusion about King Charles Spaniels and King Charles Cavalier Spaniels, they are different dogs. Not the same. They do have a shared history but the pedigrees have been separated for generations.

http://www.cavaliers.co.uk/articles/difference%20kcs%20v%20ckcs.htm

The King Charles (with the domed heads and no snout) have inbred potential for terrible ailments but the King Charles Cavaliers (normal dog shaped heads and snouts) do not suffer the same. Of course like any creature, any of them could get sick, as could any of us.

There is always the potential that a non Kennel Club breeder could mix the two together and get a healthy litter but they could just as easily pass on the problems. The idea that Heinz57 dogs are healthier than pedigrees is based on an utter lack of statistics relating to their health issues whereas pedigrees are recorded and tracked. The scandals like the King Charles brains and the GSD dropped hips are provable because the national kennel clubs keep records which can be compared, but the heinz57 defects are just dismissed " we were unlucky", "it was a bad dog".

Those breeds are interchangeable in my head!

Demonique · 08-10-2018 09:35PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

The King Charles is so inbred it shouldn't be bred anymore.

Same with the British Bulldog, they can't even conceive or give birth naturally, it's artificial insemination and c-sections

Is done deal a no No for buying a fog

Comments