RAW Superthread

Autecher · 03-10-2018 09:06AM

J. Marston wrote: »

Roman is tanking ratings. The schadenfreude is delightful.

It should be noted though that ratings aren't as big of a deal now as they were 15 or 20 years ago. Streaming services, self recording TV boxes, youtube & reruns all go together now as far as measuring the success of TV shows in America. If Breaking Bad started airing in 2002 it would have never made it to 5 seasons with the initial TV ratings it got, it stayed on the air because of it's Hulu & Netflix streams which TV companies get a percentage of the profit from. The fact that 2 different TV companies paid close to 2.5 Billion Dollars to have the rights to show Raw & Smackdown should be all that is needed to see that the low ratings for both the last few years don't tell the whole story.

Agent Coulson · 03-10-2018 09:23AM

cliggg wrote: »

It should be noted though that ratings aren't as big of a deal now as they were 15 or 20 years ago. Streaming services, self recording TV boxes, youtube & reruns all go together now as far as measuring the success of TV shows in America. If Breaking Bad started airing in 2002 it would have never made it to 5 seasons with the initial TV ratings it got, it stayed on the air because of it's Hulu & Netflix streams which TV companies get a percentage of the profit from. The fact that 2 different TV companies paid close to 2.5 Billion Dollars to have the rights to show Raw & Smackdown should be all that is needed to see that the low ratings for both the last few years don't tell the whole story.

Ratings thought are what make USA and FOX pay the WWE billions to show RAW and Smackdown.

If those rating fall below the levels the TV companies are happy with they won’t renew deal at that kind of money again.

Autecher · 03-10-2018 10:58AM

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Ratings thought are what make USA and FOX pay the WWE billions to show RAW and Smackdown.

If those rating fall below the levels the TV companies are happy with they won’t renew deal at that kind of money again.

Well again it's not just the TV ratings, it's everything. The ratings have been "bad" in America for the last 3-5 years (compared to the previous 3-5) or so we're told yet they have got record money for their renewal deals. I know some people want to say it's Roman or the booking etc.. but it's not. Less people watch live but I would hazard a guess with Raw at least that their total ratings across all platforms in the week of airing are quite strong.

Loughc · 03-10-2018 11:17AM

J. Marston wrote: »

Roman is tanking ratings. The schadenfreude is delightful.

But of course we all know it's Finn's fault... and Braun's fault, and McIntyre will prob be punished as well.

SlickRic · 03-10-2018 12:04PM

Vince doesn't have Roman in this position because he thinks he's good for ratings. ratings are just a disposable metric that he will use, only when it suits him.

Vince has Roman in that position because he sees him as his last great creation before he goes. his pride will not let him admit that the people don't really want him.

he's insecure to the nth degree, and will ram Roman down our throats whether we like it or not, forsaking all other talent who could make it as 'top guy', and at the end of it, Vince will tell us what an incredible superstar Roman is, ignoring the vitriol, and possibly give him the moniker of 'most controversial WWE champion of all time', stealing that ridiculous moniker from John Cena, who is looking less controversial by the week.

Autecher · 03-10-2018 02:29PM

SlickRic wrote: »

Vince doesn't have Roman in this position because he thinks he's good for ratings. ratings are just a disposable metric that he will use, only when it suits him.

Vince has Roman in that position because he sees him as his last great creation before he goes. his pride will not let him admit that the people don't really want him.

he's insecure to the nth degree, and will ram Roman down our throats whether we like it or not, forsaking all other talent who could make it as 'top guy', and at the end of it, Vince will tell us what an incredible superstar Roman is, ignoring the vitriol, and possibly give him the moniker of 'most controversial WWE champion of all time', stealing that ridiculous moniker from John Cena, who is looking less controversial by the week.

It's not insecurity it's business. With Cena gone Roman Reigns now brings in more money in merchandise sales than anybody else. And WWE youtube videos with Reigns in them get far more views than evryone else bar Cena. It's the same reason Rollins is never the top guy because he's not in the top 5 merch sellers and his video views are lower. These are also the reasons AJ Styles has been the champ on Smackdown for so long, he brings in a lot of money and views. It really is that simple.

Loughc · 03-10-2018 02:47PM

cliggg wrote: »

It's not insecurity it's business. With Cena gone Roman Reigns now brings in more money in merchandise sales than anybody else. And WWE youtube videos with Reigns in them get far more views than evryone else bar Cena. It's the same reason Rollins is never the top guy because he's not in the top 5 merch sellers and his video views are lower. These are also the reasons AJ Styles has been the champ on Smackdown for so long, he brings in a lot of money and views. It really is that simple.

Even if Reigns is the top merch seller... Although I've read elsewhere that AJ & New Day were outselling him, he's only top as he's being pushed so strongly. Had Finn been booked as strong and you would have him at the top seller of merch and the top views.

The office didn't get behind Reigns because he was number 1, he's number one because the office got behind him.

SlickRic · 03-10-2018 03:01PM

cliggg wrote: »

It's not insecurity it's business. With Cena gone Roman Reigns now brings in more money in merchandise sales than anybody else. And WWE youtube videos with Reigns in them get far more views than evryone else bar Cena. It's the same reason Rollins is never the top guy because he's not in the top 5 merch sellers and his video views are lower. These are also the reasons AJ Styles has been the champ on Smackdown for so long, he brings in a lot of money and views. It really is that simple.

self fulfilling prophecy set by Vince.

and it's not business, because it doesn't have to be. you have the Network and a watertight TV deal in place that gives him guaranteed money. and there's no competition. so Vince can essentially book whatever the fúck he feels like.

on Roman's merch:
it's well known there's more of his merch available than nearly anyone else's.
it's cool merch.
he's positioned as important.
he's positioned in the main slots on the show with the most viewers.

Rollins has flipped from face-to-heel-to-face. he was killed by his return. decimated. came back to a thunderous reaction, only to be kept heel, so that Reigns could stay face. and his character is meh. completely and utterly vanilla.

Reigns is positioned as the main guy. he's been feuding with Lesnar for 3 fúcking years. he is treated as a big deal. when you're consistently booked as a big deal, a large portion of your audience will buy into that. why wouldn't they? it's a film to a lot of young fans, and Reigns is their superhero.

book Reigns as strongly as they've booked Rollins and book Rollins the way they've booked Reigns, and see if merch sales and views go up.

Autecher · 03-10-2018 03:19PM

Loughc wrote: »

Even if Reigns is the top merch seller... Although I've read elsewhere that AJ & New Day were outselling him, he's only top as he's being pushed so strongly. Had Finn been booked as strong and you would have him at the top seller of merch and the top views.

The office didn't get behind Reigns because he was number 1, he's number one because the office got behind him.

Yeah that's a fair point but I would say that the office have got behind many people over the years who didn't "make it" because the ratings, merch sales, audience reactions, house show sales & social media views/followers didn't hit expected targets. This is how they do it in most cases. That's why Seamus isn't in the main event scene anymore, because he doesn't bring in enough money to justify the spot. The top 6 male merch sellers are Roman, Cena (still), Styles, Finn, Strowman, & The New Day. There is also the promo part of the job, Vince expects the top guy to be able to carry 20 minute promos on a weekly basis. He probably doesn't think Finn can do that which I would agree with but I don't think Roman is good at them either.

Autecher · 03-10-2018 03:29PM

SlickRic wrote: »

self fulfilling prophecy set by Vince.

and it's not business, because it doesn't have to be. you have the Network and a watertight TV deal in place that gives him guaranteed money. and there's no competition. so Vince can essentially book whatever the fúck he feels like.

on Roman's merch:
it's well known there's more of his merch available than nearly anyone else's.
it's cool merch.
he's positioned as important.
he's positioned in the main slots on the show with the most viewers.

Rollins has flipped from face-to-heel-to-face. he was killed by his return. decimated. came back to a thunderous reaction, only to be kept heel, so that Reigns could stay face. and his character is meh. completely and utterly vanilla.

Reigns is positioned as the main guy. he's been feuding with Lesnar for 3 fúcking years. he is treated as a big deal. when you're consistently booked as a big deal, a large portion of your audience will buy into that. why wouldn't they? it's a film to a lot of young fans, and Reigns is their superhero.

book Reigns as strongly as they've booked Rollins and book Rollins the way they've booked Reigns, and see if merch sales and views go up.

I agree about the booking but then WWE booking is sh*te for almost everybody. Yes there is more of Roman's merch than anyone else but again that's how they have always done it. Hogan, Austin, The Rock, Triple H, The Undertaker, Angle etc... They all had more merch available than everybody else at the time when they were faces. Plus that's only at live events, go to the website and everybody has merch even Curt Hawkins! The best way to look at I think is to look at their action figure sales numbers, Cena & Reigns are their top sellers by a significant amount because both characters are aimed at kids and let's not forget that kids or more likely parents of kids are still the majority target market.

SlickRic · 03-10-2018 03:42PM

cliggg wrote: »

I agree about the booking but then WWE booking is sh*te for almost everybody. Yes there is more of Roman's merch than anyone else but again that's how they have always done it. Hogan, Austin, The Rock, Triple H, The Undertaker, Angle etc... They all had more merch available than everybody else at the time when they were faces. Plus that's only at live events, go to the website and everybody has merch even Curt Hawkins! The best way to look at I think is to look at their action figure sales numbers, Cena & Reigns are their top sellers by a significant amount because both characters are aimed at kids and let's not forget that kids or more likely parents of kids are still the majority target market.

have a look at how much merch, even different types there is, for Cena and Reigns. then have a look at Curt Hawkins. it isn't comparable.

and yes, Reigns is a superhero. i've said that.

but you can't then beat Rollins with the stick of never being a top guy if the only time he was booked as a top guy (as the Authority's chosen one), he was getting more viewers than Reigns is now, and when he came back after being injured, he got a more vociferous and positive reaction than Reigns could ever dream of getting.

Reigns sells more and gets more views because of the booking. nothing more. nothing less. it's as simple as that. and it's because Vince wants a superhero as his top guy. it's not because Rollins isn't a top guy. it's just that Vince is never, ever going to position Rollins as the man over Reigns.

the booking is all about one man's opinion.

and as I said, ratings don't matter when the guy in charge is fixated on one guy, is an insecure madman, and doesn't need high TV ratings to make money. he can do what he likes. if he tells you Roman is the top guy, then Goddammit, he's the fúcking top guy.

Autecher · 03-10-2018 03:52PM

I wasn't comparing Hawkins just saying everybody has merch. I'll put it this way if every wrestler had just 1 t-shirt available to buy then Reigns and Cena would still be the top sellers imo. You mentioned earlier that Reigns is cool, well Cena's is not in any way. It's garish, loud and tacky but still sells by the truckload. Daniel Bryan even at the very peak of his Mania run still didn't outsell Reigns or Cena so crowd reactions don't factor into it.

In the words of Vince

Loughc · 03-10-2018 03:56PM

Daniel Bryan even at the very peak of his Mania run still didn't outsell Reigns

That is wrong my friend. D.Bryan was the top selling around WMXXX and Reigns didn't have merch then it was the Shield and even that didn't outsell Bryan.

Autecher · 03-10-2018 04:00PM

Loughc wrote: »

That is wrong my friend. D.Bryan was the top selling around WMXXX and Reigns didn't have merch then it was the Shield and even that didn't outsell Bryan.

Really? I remember reading that he didn't but my memory is admittedly sh*te so you may be correct.
Edit: I just googled it and you are correct, f*ck my memory!

sky88 · 03-10-2018 04:35PM

the biggest problem they have is they sacrifice everyone else in favour of roman. the only one that matters to is roman and everyone else is just there to get roman over.

if roman was just one of the top guys he would suit the role so much better

Loughc · 03-10-2018 04:42PM

sky88 wrote: »

the biggest problem they have is they sacrifice everyone else in favour of roman. the only one that matters to is roman and everyone else is just there to get roman over.

if roman was just one of the top guys he would suit the role so much better

Great point, even back in the attitude era, you had Rock, Austin, Angle, Taker, Mankind and HHH all capable of being "The Guy" so if one got injured or decided to go to hollywood or take their ball and go home it wouldnt be the end of the world.

With Roman there is no plan B. Braun was so over and he got over organically but no, turned heel. Finn was over when he first came to Raw, now buried. Rollins given no direction or nothing to do, bland now due to booking.

They need to have a bunch of top guys who can trade wins back and forth and have a competitive Main Event scene, it'll only help Reigns look more legitimate too.

sky88 · 03-10-2018 05:01PM

Loughc wrote: »

Great point, even back in the attitude era, you had Rock, Austin, Angle, Taker, Mankind and HHH all capable of being "The Guy" so if one got injured or decided to go to hollywood or take their ball and go home it wouldnt be the end of the world.

With Roman there is no plan B. Braun was so over and he got over organically but no, turned heel. Finn was over when he first came to Raw, now buried. Rollins given no direction or nothing to do, bland now due to booking.

They need to have a bunch of top guys who can trade wins back and forth and have a competitive Main Event scene, it'll only help Reigns look more legitimate too.

although if you look at vinces is go to booking for what he perceives as top star is to sacrifice everyone else he done it with hogan & cena too but as you stated attitude era was different and to a degree the early 2000s.

03-10-2018 05:16PM

Konnor defeated Bobby Roode.

Fantastic.

Itssoeasy · 03-10-2018 06:15PM

Omackeral wrote: »

Konnor defeated Bobby Roode.

Fantastic.

Is that two wins in a row for konnor ?

03-10-2018 06:25PM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Is that two wins in a row for konnor ?

The monstrous brute made short work of that vanilla midget Chet Gables last week.

Itssoeasy · 03-10-2018 06:37PM

Omackeral wrote: »

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Is that two wins in a row for konnor ?

The monstrous brute made short work of that vanilla midget Chet Gables last week.

What counts as a winning streak ?

CastorTroy · 03-10-2018 08:03PM

According to NXT it does. Keith Lee was saying last week that after 2 matches he was undefeated so should be up for a title shot.

Insect Overlord · 03-10-2018 08:13PM

CastorTroy wrote: »

According to NXT it does. Keith Lee was saying last week that after 2 matches he was undefeated so should be up for a title shot.

Off topic I know, but where could I see more of Keith Lee? I saw him for the first time at OTT earlier this year and he was booked as a big monster heel. The crowd kept cheering for him and it seemed that they all knew he was NXT-bound.

Ali Bomaye · 03-10-2018 11:13PM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Off topic I know, but where could I see more of Keith Lee? I saw him for the first time at OTT earlier this year and he was booked as a big monster heel. The crowd kept cheering for him and it seemed that they all knew he was NXT-bound.

I wouldn't have seen a lot of Keith Lee, but I know he had a match with Ishii in RevPro last year that got a lot of hype at the time and was put on NJPW World. They had a rematch earlier this year in RevPro as well. I think he worked a lot in Evolve and PWG (I think there was a Keith Lee Donovan Dijak match in PWG that was supposed to be superb), and I'd imagine he worked all the major European indies.

04-10-2018 01:44AM

Went to a smackdown show last year, 90% of the merch was for reigns.... had one aj shirt, who was the champion of the brand i went to see. Reigns wasnt even on the show yet msde up nearly all the merch

beakerjoe · 04-10-2018 07:24AM

Omackeral wrote: »

Konnor defeated Bobby Roode.

Fantastic.

Who ever had him in MNGs fantasy league is cleaning up....... what do you mean its not running......

Autecher · 04-10-2018 09:13AM

Sirsok wrote: »

Went to a smackdown show last year, 90% of the merch was for reigns.... had one aj shirt, who was the champion of the brand i went to see. Reigns wasnt even on the show yet msde up nearly all the merch

I've no doubt that is true. I don't want to drag this argument on as most here won't agree with me or change my mind and I won't change anyone's either. I will just say this, Vince has been a wrestling promoter for close to 50 years now and has had immeasurable success for almost that entire time. When he gets behind someone so much for so long then he is right to as he has all the experience & success to make the correct decision. I think he has made the correct decision with Reigns (who I'm not really even a fan of by the way! :eek:) as they are making more money now than ever across all revenue streams. As I say though I recognise I am in the minority with that opinion so I'll let it go so we can all slag off WWE again

:)

The Nal · 08-10-2018 12:58PM

https://twitter.com/90sWWE/status/1049238269945421826

Loughc · 08-10-2018 08:08PM

The photoshopped head on HHH there is ridiculous.

J. Marston · 09-10-2018 01:14AM

D geriatric X is back.

RAW Superthread

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