The Frederick St protest and reaction

Topgear on Dave · 14-09-2018 12:11pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

No they haven't.

It was on the 9 o clock news last night and on primetime.

BBFAN · 14-09-2018 12:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

jesus what an absolute disaster of a post

And what an intelligent list of suggestions you make. :rolleyes:

McMurphy · 14-09-2018 12:12pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

The van was tax and insurance compliant in Ireland. That doesn't mean it was taxed. It wasn't required to be taxed in Ireland and it's tax status in UK/NI is not something the Gardanforce.

This. Thank you.

There's too much emphasis being put on the heap of sh1t van, and whether it was taxed or not, when it doesn't matter one iota if it was taxed in the country it was registered to, that's not the Garda concern, and so they (the gards) statement on its tax status is entirely on point in relation to its status here in Ireland.

It's registration missing, and where it's parked/ bald tyres (how anyone can see the depth of the thread from that pic is another story, but wherever) etc is another story, and does give the impression that the laws in fact are being cherry picked.

The bigger picture though, and possibly a worrying state of things to come is that a group of men, so far no one knows from where (firm or locality) were employed by someone to turn up and enforce a high court order, while the guards were deployed to ensure the peace wad kept in doing so.

I watch a programme often enough called "can't pay? We'll take it away" (it's on Netflix of anyone that is interested wants to watch it)

The show centre's on a firm of bailiffs/sheriffs/ high court enforcement officers, who are deployed all over England and Wales to recover goods/ assets on the foot of high court orders etc.

I've watched almost all seasons at this stage, and have seen numerous evictions/ asset seizes , and how the lads do it.

That usually show up in a van, clearly identify themselves with identification and their names etc and then explain why they're there.

From time to time the police are called with troublesome folk, but its usually dealt with swiftly and effectively.

The lads usually reposess a property, give the evicted instructions on how to try and secure accommodation/ details of why they're turfed out etc, and then all sides move on.

In this instance, we had a group of fellas who arrived in a scruffy looking, not entirely road compliant vehicle, all dressed in black, wearing paramilitary style balaclavas who as of yet, no one knows who they were, who employed their services, or what firm they represented.

Whatever about the lads inside the building who were clearly breaking the law/ defying a court order, the optics of the above in comparison with the professionalism of the UK enforcers isn't good at all.

It is my opinion that the lads we seen, watched on by the states police force was chosen deliberately to try and send some kind of message, and I suspect it'll backfire spectaculary (as they seldom seem to learn)

Thatnastyboy · 14-09-2018 12:14pm

BBFAN wrote: »

They start building the houses themselves again. Very simple, it worked in the 80's, it can work again.

Funds can always be found, when they're caught out for a cancer scandal or sex abuse scandal, where do you think that money magically appears from.

Where are your answers?

I don't have any answers, that's why I asked, doesn't seem like anyone has.

Who's they? They who - they developers or they government? One is funded from private investment, the other must invest from public coffers - what coffers - increased tax? Reduced spending in other areas?

You are surmising, not giving answers, same as everyone else that I have seen.

Taking a pot shot at me is not an answer - capitalising INCREASE THE SUPPLY is not an answer - (see how pot shots don't work)

14-09-2018 12:16pm

BBFAN wrote: »

And what an intelligent list of suggestions you make. :rolleyes:

i set out a reasonable lengthy post a few pages back listing the most obvious reasons why its never going to be as simple as shouting and harrumphing, online or off.

its you claiming there are easy answers.

"just build them" is easy said but unless you have any actual plan to negotiate the legislative, capital, political etc etc barriers to same then please dont feel that repeating it is in any way more helpful than actually acknowledging the difficulties.

it is in fact the opposite.

Dravokivich · 14-09-2018 12:17pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

It was on the 9 o clock news last night and on primetime.

It has been covered by them before. This is nothing new to anyone here.

Topgear on Dave · 14-09-2018 12:20pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

It has been covered by them before. This is nothing new to anyone here.

It needs to stay on the news because most voters arent renting.

Thats why you see politicians celebrating the fact yesterday that 500 gaffs on the northside of Dublin got denied planning.

Sweet.Science · 14-09-2018 12:25pm

'Just build the houses'

So easy the solution to this

Thatnastyboy · 14-09-2018 12:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

landlords
homeowners not paying their debt
homeowners struggling with mortgage but paying
homeowners making their payments comfortably or with mortgage paid (NOBODY talks about these guys anymore!)
private renters struggling to pay rent but happy renting
private renters struggling to pay rent and save a deposit
renters due to inherit, someday
HAP renters subsidised heavily by the state and waiting for permanent housing
the cohort who feel everyone else should be paying for their 4ever home hun
those housed in hotels and hostels on an emergency basis with no actual alternatives
those housed in hotels and hostels on an emergency basis because they are playing the system and the media to jump ahead of everyone else
the actual homeless
the banking system and everyone reliant on it functioning in our economy
the taxpayer

look, take your pick.

but everyone who wants the housing crisis solved, only wants it solved *for them*.

which will come at the expense of at least several of the other cohorts.
?

Deleted User wrote: »

i set out a reasonable lengthy post a few pages back listing the most obvious reasons why its never going to be as simple as shouting and harrumphing, online or off.

its you claiming there are easy answers.

"just build them" is easy said but unless you have any actual plan to negotiate the legislative, capital, political etc etc barriers to same then please dont feel that repeating it is in any way more helpful than actually acknowledging the difficulties.

it is in fact the opposite.

And a fantastic post it is too, I tried to say this a page or two back, but you had already made my point for me - this is a painfully complex situation.

I'd love to come out with a golden solution that means everyone gets sorted out, but as far as I can see, there is none.

weldoninhio · 14-09-2018 12:42pm

Arghus wrote: »

6 Pages? For Dublin City? The whole of Ireland? You are the first person I've come across that seems to think there's loads of property out there!

Guaranteed bro that once you go past page two, those properties are now only available for rent in name only: they are long gone at this stage, but people just leave them up because they couldn't be bothered removing from the website. There's fck all accommodation out there and loads of people looking for it.

For the country, just as the person I was replying to asked.

I never said there was loads of property out there. I replied to a statement made by someone else.

Arghus · 14-09-2018 12:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

arghus- i find it hard to believe you ever considered housing to have been out of the public eye or not at the front tier of issues politicians knew to be absolutely critical. i dont think stunts like these raise an already-massive issue's profile one iota.

but these stunts do distract attention from the actual issues, to the method and the source of the stunt. if anything, this thread proves that, not that the stunt has worked to improve the situation in any constructive way.

we've had, in the main, two sides arguing here: one supports anything anti-government/capitalist, the other imo takes a more practical view.

but if the methods used hadnt been so c*ntish and the majority of ppl (think the thread bears it out that this is the majority opinion, but feel free to disagree) didnt think from previous experience that those involved were c*nts, then if the question was "is the government doing enough about housing?" or "do you agree there is a housing crisis?" the vast majority would agree the answers

the problem is there are a wide range of complex inputs into that crisis, and most ppl are aware that not all are within the power of a govt to change, simply because fixing the system quickly for one set of people would royally f*ck another large bloc, and the govt hasnt a clear enough vote advantage to lose any large voting bloc in one showy move.

landlords
homeowners not paying their debt
homeowners struggling with mortgage but paying
homeowners making their payments comfortably or with mortgage paid (NOBODY talks about these guys anymore!)
private renters struggling to pay rent but happy renting
private renters struggling to pay rent and save a deposit
renters due to inherit, someday
HAP renters subsidised heavily by the state and waiting for permanent housing
the cohort who feel everyone else should be paying for their 4ever home hun
those housed in hotels and hostels on an emergency basis with no actual alternatives
those housed in hotels and hostels on an emergency basis because they are playing the system and the media to jump ahead of everyone else
the actual homeless
the banking system and everyone reliant on it functioning in our economy
the taxpayer

look, take your pick.

but everyone who wants the housing crisis solved, only wants it solved *for them*.

which will come at the expense of at least several of the other cohorts.

which means blocking traffic, breaking into other people's property, turning up with photographers and your kids at a garda station, etc etc etc is sh1tty, entitled and childish behaviour because the majority of people understand the above situation to be one where these stunts do not help anything, and in fact merely screw over everyone else.

which is why its galling to have the support-every-self-appointed-victim/martyr crew on here as usual flinging the "im alright, jack" line at everyone else.

very few people are alright, jack. but the majority are doing their bit to help themselves and the country, and there's many political students in mao jackets in this thread who think thats worth only a sneer- their heroes have megaphones and dreams baby, and f*ck the working stiff if he dont like it, eh?

Yes, I think the majority opinion on here is that the people involved are c*nuts. But, in fairness, isn't that always the way for After Hours about every political debate: everyone is always a c*nt according to this place. I more or less know what I'm going to read in every hot-topic thread, even before I click into it. Even your use of the tired "students in Mao jackets" and the "martyr crew" tropes is indicative to me that that you're coming at from an entrenched attitude. I know there's nothing I'm going to say here that'll change your mind.

Of course housing has been a political issue for years, but it gets bigger and bigger all the time and I think the government have largely sat in their hands about it for years. Fine Gael have been in Power for seven years and I never got the sense that they were actually serious about doing something until maybe 18 months ago. Feel free to disagree, but I think they were happy enough to keep the issue at relative arms length for a long time. Housing was not as hot a topic politically at the time of the last election, it was there alright, but it'll be a major talking point next time round.

If you don't agree with protests and occupations - and I'm not saying I think they are the be-all and end-all - how do you think people should register their dissatisfaction with the current reality of housing in this country? There is the ballot box of course, but that may only come your way once in several years. Just knuckle down and grumble ineffectually, that old Irish way?

It's not just the so called "work-shy masses" and self appointed martyrs who are feeling the squeeze. Housing is becoming a major issue for all kinds of people. I'm a working male in my early thirties and a lot of my peers are just like me: working hard to make ends meet, with spiralling rent costs and a dwindling supply of available properties. The protests and the occupations are just symptomatic of this aspect of Irish life. But, as usual round here, people refuse to see the woods from the trees - preferring instead to go for the surface level - and rather childlike, I may add - analysis of just calling them "c*nts". Maybe they are c*nts and maybe in some ways their methods are indeed c*ntish, but that doesn't mean that, at some fundamental level, those c*nuts don't have a point.

homerjay2005 · 14-09-2018 12:58pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Is this the one where of you can’t afford to go for a meal out every two weeks or can’t afford a new couch every year you’re in poverty?

I wonder what these people spend their money on instead, wouldn’t be smokes drink or gambling of course, oh I’m not allowed say that blah blah.

Give it over ffs.

This resulted in the measure, originally based on lacking one or more items from an 8-item index, changing to one based on lacking two or more items from the following 11-item index:

1. Two pairs of strong shoes
2. A warm waterproof overcoat
3. Buy new not second-hand clothes
4. Eat meals with meat, chicken, fish (or vegetarian equivalent) every second day
5. Have a roast joint or its equivalent once a week
6. Had to go without heating during the last year through lack of money
7. Keep the home adequately warm
8. Buy presents for family or friends at least once a year
9. Replace any worn out furniture
10. Have family or friends for a drink or meal once a month
11. Have a morning, afternoon or evening out in the last fortnight, for entertainment

Three indicators are used to measure poverty in Ireland

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

ThunbergsAreGo · 14-09-2018 1:03pm

Haven't had a roast in a month, or gone out in a fortnight

I am impoverished

storker · 14-09-2018 1:07pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

So you support criminals.

Is failure to comply with a court order an actual crime? Or a misdemeanor? Not everything that is illegal is a full-blown crime.

In any case, in case you are confused, I don't support, murderers, bank robbers, shoplifters, burglars, muggers, drug dealers or rapists. I do support (depending on the context) civil disobedience but as I said, I do not have a problem with such protesters paying the prescribed penalty for that disobedience (again depending on context), so I say good for them for making their case and getting the publicity they wanted, but at the same time I have no criticism to make about them being evicted.

Raising the question of costs to the property owner is a good point however, and I do not believe he should be left out-of-pocket. For the cost of the eviction he should be reimbursed by the state, and by the protesters for the cost of any vandalism to the property.

Berserker · 14-09-2018 1:13pm

This resulted in the measure, originally based on lacking one or more items from an 8-item index, changing to one based on lacking two or more items from the following 11-item index:

1. Two pairs of strong shoes
2. A warm waterproof overcoat
3. Buy new not second-hand clothes
4. Eat meals with meat, chicken, fish (or vegetarian equivalent) every second day
5. Have a roast joint or its equivalent once a week
6. Had to go without heating during the last year through lack of money
7. Keep the home adequately warm
8. Buy presents for family or friends at least once a year
9. Replace any worn out furniture
10. Have family or friends for a drink or meal once a month
11. Have a morning, afternoon or evening out in the last fortnight, for entertainment

Three indicators are used to measure poverty in Ireland

Didn't realise we lived in poverty as a household.

- Definitely haven't has a morning, afternoon or evening out in the last fortnight, for entertainment.

- Haven't had family or friends for a drink or meal once a month

- Haven't had a roast or equivalent in god knows how long.

- Missus loves a good rummage in charity shops for unworn shoes and clothes.

knipex · 14-09-2018 1:17pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

It was on the 9 o clock news last night and on primetime.

And the housing shortage, increasing house prices, and increasing rents were never discussed in the media previously ???

Wheeliebin30 · 14-09-2018 1:31pm

homerjay2005 wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Absolutely ridiculous isn’t it.

Ach I despair for this country, brainwashed morons everywhere.

14-09-2018 1:36pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Next up bord gais.

How dare they make a profit off people been cold in the winter.

They should give us gas for free.

Next up, dunnes stores.

Food is a basic human right, how dare they make profit off hungry people.

Let’s occupy dunnes stores.

Awh I dunno anymore, country has lost its mind or maybe just me.

Only 2 strawmen in the one post wheelie? Come on, you can do better than that.

PlaneSpeeking · 14-09-2018 1:40pm

This resulted in the measure, originally based on lacking one or more items from an 8-item index, changing to one based on lacking two or more items from the following 11-item index:

1. Two pairs of strong shoes
2. A warm waterproof overcoat
3. Buy new not second-hand clothes
4. Eat meals with meat, chicken, fish (or vegetarian equivalent) every second day
5. Have a roast joint or its equivalent once a week
6. Had to go without heating during the last year through lack of money
7. Keep the home adequately warm
8. Buy presents for family or friends at least once a year
9. Replace any worn out furniture
10. Have family or friends for a drink or meal once a month
11. Have a morning, afternoon or evening out in the last fortnight, for entertainment

Three indicators are used to measure poverty in Ireland

I must be on the bones of me arse - I barely crack 2 or 3 of that list!

Poverty - like homelessness - clearly has been redefined.

14-09-2018 1:42pm

the_syco wrote: »

Some people think it's great that amateur landlords are leaving the market, without realising that there is no-one there to now supply rental properties that are needed.

I don't buy this notion that landlords are leaving the market because of any financial damage they are suffering, if that is what you are implying.

Rent and rent yields are higher than ever before, in all urban areas. It's more likely to be the case that accidental landlords are now seeing their opportunity to sell properties they had never intended to keep, and selling them to the likes of vulture funds or the bigger landlords.

In fact, I think the term 'accidental landlord' must surely be redundant. If they haven't sold by now, what are they at?

As for 'amateur landlords', which you specifically refer to, I think we'd all be better off if they left the market to professionals.

irishproduce wrote: »

I tell you what, I am after reading some pr piece from civil liberties this morn.

It isn't just that report which expresses concerns about public order Garda operations.

Josephine Feehily, chairperson of the Policing Authority, has said that the pictures of the Gardaí in balaclavas 'do not inspire confidence', and the Taoiseach has also expressed reservations about this.

Eggs For Dinner · 14-09-2018 1:47pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

When they were released form custody they piled into A&E

Now that is shameful

20Cent · 14-09-2018 1:56pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't buy this notion that landlords are leaving the market because of any financial damage they are suffering, if that is what you are implying.

Rent and rent yields are higher than ever before, in all urban areas. It's more likely to be the case that accidental landlords are now seeing their opportunity to sell properties they had never intended to keep, and selling them to the likes of vulture funds or the bigger landlords.

In fact, I think the term 'accidental landlord' must surely be redundant. If they haven't sold by now, what are they at?

As for 'amateur landlords', which you specifically refer to, I think we'd all be better off if they left the market to professionals.

It isn't just that report which expresses concerns about public order Garda operations.

Josephine Feehily, chairperson of the Policing Authority, has said that the pictures of the Gardaí in balaclavas 'do not inspire confidence', and the Taoiseach has also expressed reservations about this.

Out of my group of friends there are a good few accidental landlords. They bought during the boom appartments or small houses. Then children came along so they let the place they bought and rent somewhere else bigger.
The income from the letting is taxed and they have to pay rent for the new place. If their rent goes up they have to increase it for their tenants. Vicious circle.
By now the original property isn't in negative equity but if they sell it they can't be sure they can get somewhere else, turnover in Dublin is tiny 1.7% or something.
Bit of a catch 22.
A healthy housing market 4% or so of the stock should be being bought and sold.

14-09-2018 1:59pm

20Cent wrote: »

if they sell it they can't be sure they can get somewhere else

But isn't the property useless to them anyway?

What's the point in hanging onto a valuable asset, upon which you can make a profit by selling, if you don't want to let it and cannot live in it? The general turnover of properties seems irrelevant, in that context. The low turnover is due to lack of supply, not lack of demand.

Thatnastyboy · 14-09-2018 2:01pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

In fact, I think the term 'accidental landlord' must surely be redundant. If they haven't sold by now, what are they at?

A family member is an accidental landlord, not selling yet (despite their best attempts) because of a few reasons -

Their mortgage provider overcharged interest to them and many others which became a legal issue, because of this legal issue these people were not allowed bring their property to the market.

The property they currently own but have rented out brings in rent of 900/month,

The mortgage on the property is 1100/month + maintenance and usual landlord obligations.

The property is worth 60% of the original purchase price so to sell it creates a negative equity of i think about €100k,

They are renting in another property at the cost of 1000/month (they're 'lucky' at that)

Despite these outgoings they must save 20% of the new mortgage value (as they are not first time buyers) to purchase a new property, this property must be cheap enough to carry the negative equity from the other house within the 3.5x max mortgage allowance so they are heavily limited in how much they can borrow for the new property.

When they gave 6 month notice to their tenants the tenants notified them that they were unlikely to move because of high rents elsewhere and have contacted threshold about staying put.

These family members have been trapped for a decade now.

They handout a ball of money every month - while trying to pay their dues on all sides.

But according to you they're on the pigs back. They ain't.

BBFAN · 14-09-2018 2:03pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I must be on the bones of me arse - I barely crack 2 or 3 of that list!

Poverty - like homelessness - clearly has been redefined.

If you don't crack 2 or 3 on that list you need to look at your life. :rolleyes: Give it up ffs.

14-09-2018 2:06pm

BBFAN wrote: »

And as been stated many times in this thread also, they have been proven wrong in that the van hasn't been taxed since 2014 so can you please stop waffling on with misinformation.

Can you provide proof of this, please. Seeing as a tax disks is no longer required since 2014 in the Uk, it’s absence isn’t a problem.

BBFAN · 14-09-2018 2:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you provide proof of this, please. Seeing as a tax disks is no longer required since 2014 in the Uk, it’s absence isn’t a problem.

I can't be bothered going all the way back through the thread Maryanne but proof was provided earlier from an article in which the journalist had checked the tax status of the van from the reg number and gotten the information.

I never said absence of a disc was a problem.

Graces7 · 14-09-2018 2:14pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

Did just that, there are 6 pages of properties.

sorry; very tired and did not finish this. Run that past the list of limits for each county that you can find online re RA and HAP

Eg some counties are as low as E380 a month. Highest is E590 ( single person)

Mayo where I live is E390 for a single person. Not one house at that.

Graces7 · 14-09-2018 2:19pm

This resulted in the measure, originally based on lacking one or more items from an 8-item index, changing to one based on lacking two or more items from the following 11-item index:

1. Two pairs of strong shoes
2. A warm waterproof overcoat
3. Buy new not second-hand clothes
4. Eat meals with meat, chicken, fish (or vegetarian equivalent) every second day
5. Have a roast joint or its equivalent once a week
6. Had to go without heating during the last year through lack of money
7. Keep the home adequately warm
8. Buy presents for family or friends at least once a year
9. Replace any worn out furniture
10. Have family or friends for a drink or meal once a month
11. Have a morning, afternoon or evening out in the last fortnight, for entertainment

Three indicators are used to measure poverty in Ireland

And they are a travesti; an upper middle class list. I would fit in with maybe 2 of these but I do not count myself as living in poverty. Very far from it. I would not like to live as they suggest. Out for entertainment? shoes? I have crocs, wellies and one pair.

tayto lover · 14-09-2018 2:19pm

All this rubbish about tax on vans, clothing people wore and empty private houses is real BS.
The only thing that matters is - has anyone the right to illegally inhabit someone else's property and the answer is clearly a big NO.
There are age old laws against that sort of thing.

The Frederick St protest and reaction

Comments