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Munster vs Ospreys, Fri 14 Sep, 7:35pm, Eir Sports

  • 13-09-2018 12:01pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭


    Munster:
    Mike Haley; Andrew Conway, Sammy Arnold, Dan Goggin, Darren Sweetnam; Joey Carbery, Duncan Williams;
    James Cronin, Rhys Marshall, Stephen Archer; Tadhg Beirne, Darren O’Shea; Peter O’Mahony (C), Chris Cloete, Arno Botha.

    Replacements: Mike Sherry, Dave Kilcoyne, John Ryan, Jean Kleyn, Tommy O’Donnell, James Hart, Ian Keatley, Jaco Taute.

    OSPREYS​​

    15 James Hook
    14 Tom Williams
    13 Joe Thomas
    12 Cory Allen
    11 Luke Morgan
    10 Sam Davies
    9 Tom Habberfield

    1 Rhodri Jones
    2 Scott Baldwin
    3 Tom Botha
    4 Giorgi Nemsadze
    5 Adam Beard
    6 Olly Cracknell (Capt)
    7 Morgan Morris
    8 Sam Cross

    REPLACEMENTS

    16 Ifan Phillips
    17 Nicky Smith
    18 Alex Jeffries
    19 James Ratti
    20 Guido Volpi
    21 Matthew Aubrey
    22 Tiaan Thomas-Wheeler
    23 Hanno Dirksen

    Luke Morgan makes his Guinness PRO14 debut
    Morgan Morris makes his first PRO14 start
    Guido Volpi will make his Ospreys debut if he comes off the bench

    The following players were unavailable for selection due to injury:

    Lloyd Ashley – Shoulder
    Dan Baker – Knee
    Gheorghe Gajion – Hamstring
    Keelan Giles – Knee
    Paul James – Shoulder
    Will Jones – Shoulder
    Lesley Klim – Hamstring
    Rob McCusker – Calf
    Sam Parry – Bicep
    Luke Price- Fractured tibia
    Gareth Thomas – Shoulder
    Scott Williams – Hamstring

    Chris Cloete and Peter O'Mahony return!


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Dm-CXHTW4AA4tAM.jpg:large


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's a strong Munster team, they'll have too much for Ospreys. JJ completely out of the frame - feel for him to be honest but not unexpected.

    Strong backrow and Beirne get's his first start. Expect a much tighter performance this week.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Looks like the Ospreys are trying to focus on certain games and this isn't one of them. They've rested all their big names; only 3 players remain from the side that beat the Cheetahs. Shame as this is normally a cracker of a fixture but Munster pack is far too strong for the Ospreys to handle them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    The line reflects the lineups. Munster are 16 point favourites.

    Edit: Now they're 18!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Now it's 20. They don't wait around.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭kuang1


    Now it's 20. They don't wait around.

    Money must've flooded in.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    But it's only the Irish sides that disrespect the competition with second string lineups...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,720 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    Ospreys could get battered here


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,244 ✭✭✭Boscoirl


    AdamD wrote: »
    Ospreys could get battered here

    We could get to 99 phases before we turn it over on the try line :P


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,830 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    munster -23 now !!!

    AWJ must be having his minutes minded


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    This makes three consecutive starts at number eight for Arno Botha. POM/Cloete/Stander is the obvious first choice backrow but the bench spot between TOD and Botha is up for grabs.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    munster -23 now !!!

    AWJ must be having his minutes minded

    Was -10 before the teams were announced. Some movement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,599 ✭✭✭ScrubsfanChris


    Buer wrote: »
    Looks like the Ospreys are trying to focus on certain games and this isn't one of them. They've rested all their big names; only 3 players remain from the side that beat the Cheetahs. Shame as this is normally a cracker of a fixture but Munster pack is far too strong for the Ospreys to handle them.
    Cracker yes but not very competitive in recent years.

    2017: 36-10
    2017: 23-03
    2016: 33-0


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,058 ✭✭✭Mookie Blaylock


    Can't see this being anything but a Munster win...but a tight one...10 points at best... we're off the pace so far, players being eased back into duty and think the bookies are extracting the urine a little with their spread.


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,830 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Can't see this being anything but a Munster win...but a tight one...10 points at best... we're off the pace so far, players being eased back into duty and think the bookies are extracting the urine a little with their spread.

    To a man the munster forwards are better than their counterparts....

    Munster should be able to choose what figure they want to win by.

    I'll be shocked if its less than 20 (on a dry track)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,058 ✭✭✭Mookie Blaylock


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    To a man the munster forwards are better than their counterparts....

    Munster should be able to choose what figure they want to win by.

    I'll be shocked if its less than 20 (on a dry track)

    It's not about being better, it's about game fitness levels


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,830 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    It's not about being better, it's about game fitness levels

    Are you actually serious???

    This is going to be the first start in a pro 14 game this season from practically ALL that ospreys team.....

    There are two teams playing this game you know.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭yerrahbah


    That backrow though...
    No surprise to see JJ not included, Carbery needs starts and Keatley needs gametime.  
    Three into two doesn't go.


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭turnikett1


    It's still depressing to know that if Carbery gets injured we are back to square one. The dream team of Keatley and Hanrahan. Will Johnston be getting more of a look in soon? I haven't really been following the Munster A matches. Even as the 22 we can't persist with JJ and Keatley. We know what they offer. There are no more chances to shine, their ceiling is well and truly hit.
    If Carbery gets injured and Murray stays out for a few months, things start to look pretty bleak again. Sorry to be the pessimist but the key to this Munster side is health. Concerning drop off between 1st and 2nd choice in a few positions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭turnikett1


    It's still depressing to know that if Carbery gets injured we are back to square one. The dream team of Keatley and Hanrahan. Will Johnston be getting more of a look in soon? I haven't really been following the Munster A matches. Even as the 22 we can't persist with JJ and Keatley. We know what they offer. There are no more chances to shine, their ceiling is well and truly hit.
    If Carbery gets injured and Murray stays out for a few months, things start to look pretty bleak again. Sorry to be the pessimist but the key to this Munster side is health. Concerning drop off between 1st and 2nd choice in a few positions.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    We're back at square one partnering Joey with Duncan (the boy wonder) Williams


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Mc Love wrote: »
    We're back at square one partnering Joey with Duncan (the boy wonder) Williams

    He was one of your best performers last week. He's not a world beater but I'll never understand the level of sh*t he gets from fans.

    He's a completely adequate Pro14 scrum half.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Buer wrote: »
    He was one of your best performers last week. He's not a world beater but I'll never understand the level of sh*t he gets from fans.

    He's a completely adequate Pro14 scrum half.

    You don't watch him every week. Perfectly adequate isn't good enough when you play so many games without Murray. And it looks like we'll be relying on him in the first two rounds in Europe. His previous record in big European games is pretty bad. The thought of him starting at 9 in Exeter fills me with dread.

    Now saying that I wouldn't be one of those to abuse him, as I blame Munster rugby for persevering for so long with a player when it's obvious a better backup was needed to Murray for years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    You don't watch him every week. Perfectly adequate isn't good enough when you play so many games without Murray. And it looks like we'll be relying on him in the first two rounds in Europe. His previous record in big European games is pretty bad. The thought of him starting at 9 in Exeter fills me with dread.

    Now saying that I wouldn't be one of those to abuse him, as I blame Munster rugby for persevering for so long with a player when it's obvious a better backup was needed to Murray for years.
    But Munster have had plenty of academy and other senior contracted scrum halfs and none have done enough on a regular basis to surpass him as back up to CM. That isnt Munster's fault.
    He isnt good enough to start at 9 in european games but he's still showwn himself as better than others as back up for years.
    He has generally done better in the last year or two than he had for years before hand.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Buer wrote: »
    ... but I'll never understand the level of sh*t he gets from fans.

    He seems to attract more ire than most, alright. I reckon it's at least partly down to the position and the scrum-cap.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    You don't watch him every week. Perfectly adequate isn't good enough when you play so many games without Murray. And it looks like we'll be relying on him in the first two rounds in Europe. His previous record in big European games is pretty bad. The thought of him starting at 9 in Exeter fills me with dread.

    Now saying that I wouldn't be one of those to abuse him, as I blame Munster rugby for persevering for so long with a player when it's obvious a better backup was needed to Murray for years.

    I would say I'd watch about 80% of Munster's matches so yeah, I watch him most weeks if he features. His shortcomings are clear but it still doesn't come close to the level of grief he gets. He puts in some very solid performances in the Pro14 which is the level he's expected to deliver at.

    DW tends to be the automatic go to guy for criticism if things aren't going well despite the pack in front of him having been well beaten at times. Conor Murray had a pretty insipid spell for Munster towards the end of last season which was largely glossed over. If Williams had been on the field, he'd have been hung out to dry by some.

    Munster cannot just magic up a replacement. They've been seeking to improve their options at 9 but Williams is the best of the rest and has done a solid enough job. Leinster are the only province with a definitively better second choice scrum half and that's due to using a NIQ spot on him as a project player. Munster had needs elsewhere and couldn't afford to do that for a sub. They've tried TOL, Stringer (who requested to leave), Hart and now Cronin.

    I suspect in the next 1-2 years they will indeed use a NIQ spot on a scrum half as Conor Murray turns 30 this season and they'll look to future proof.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Trust me, Murrays late season form was not glossed over in the circles I move in.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,352 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Where do we get a better scrumhalf than Williams? The "anyone or my granny would do better doesn't wash as we've seen no one has come close to knocking him off his perch.

    Also, in a lot of the games where he has under performed its behind a losing pack with him getting poor or slow ball. We've all seen him trying to marshal guys into an attacking or receiving line but he gets the blame for slow ball - it's fairly simple a scrumhalf needs someone to pass the ball to.

    I understand the annoyance at Munster but I can't accept the abuse he gets nor could I accept the booing Keatley got. It rankles with me that fans can go that low.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Williams is an average dirtracker scrum-half. In fairness Munster are trying to move on from him as he turns 33 in April and have had a number of scrum-halves in the academy that didn't make it over the last number of seasons. Given the current state of contracts (all four senior scrum-halves are out of contract while two NIEs in Botha and Taute are also), Munster will have the option of using an NIE spot on a scrum-half if necessary.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Williams is an average dirtracker scrum-half. In fairness Munster are trying to move on from him as he turns 33 in April and have had a number of scrum-halves in the academy that didn't make it over the last number of seasons. Given the current state of contracts (all four senior scrum-halves are out of contract while two NIEs in Botha and Taute are also), Munster will have the option of using an NIE spot on a scrum-half if necessary.


    Don't forget that both Kleyn and Marshall will be IQ at the start of next season too. Plenty of scope for NIQs next year (although probably not the money).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,508 ✭✭✭sioda


    Don't forget that both Kleyn and Marshall will be IQ at the start of next season too. Plenty of scope for NIQs next year (although probably not the money).

    Am I the only person who is worried Rassie might try and get our ZA players back to play for the national side.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    sioda wrote: »
    Am I the only person who is worried Rassie might try and get our ZA players back to play for the national side.

    I don't think so, I'd say the quota mandate still stands despite the sound bites.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,352 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Williams is an average dirtracker scrum-half. In fairness Munster are trying to move on from him as he turns 33 in April and have had a number of scrum-halves in the academy that didn't make it over the last number of seasons. Given the current state of contracts (all four senior scrum-halves are out of contract while two NIEs in Botha and Taute are also), Munster will have the option of using an NIE spot on a scrum-half if necessary.

    What quality NIE scrumhalf will come to Munster to sit behind Murray?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    There's no need to be concerned about Erasmus poaching anyone. The RWC is 12 months out and he's not going to be looking at bringing guys in at this point. The two already capped guys (Botha and Taute) aren't vital to Munster given there are very good options in their positions. Both of their contracts are up at the end of this season and I'd expect one of them to leave to allow a NIQ spot be used in a more pressing position.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    phog wrote: »
    What quality NIE scrumhalf will come to Munster to sit behind Murray?

    You're looking at a level like a JGP realistically, or a rare case like a Matawalu who can be used in other field positions.

    Ideally Cronin or Hart develop into a suitable backup, but the option is there to delve into the market.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,822 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Buer wrote: »
    There's no need to be concerned about Erasmus poaching anyone. The RWC is 12 months out and he's not going to be looking at bringing guys in at this point. The two already capped guys (Botha and Taute) aren't vital to Munster given there are very good options in their positions. Both of their contracts are up at the end of this season and I'd expect one of them to leave to allow a NIQ spot be used in a more pressing position.

    Munster are well stocked at the moment, hard to point to any one position we need an NIE in to be fair.
    I don't buy into the scrum-half despair, Williams is alright in my opinion, and I'd hope that Hart will raise his level if he gets more game-time.
    I certainly wouldn't allow Taute and Botha go if they were performing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Buer wrote: »
    He was one of your best performers last week. He's not a world beater but I'll never understand the level of sh*t he gets from fans.

    He's a completely adequate Pro14 scrum half.

    We're not going to win silverware with adequate, he's in the same boat as IK, they're just above AIL standard. I really dont know how they've stayed in the team as long as they have been. I dont think Carbery joined Munster so he could link up with DW. DW might play better with JC at OH - suppose we will find out later.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Mc Love wrote: »
    We're not going to win silverware with adequate, he's in the same boat as IK, they're just above AIL standard. I really dont know how they've stayed in the team as long as they have been. I dont think Carbery joined Munster so he could link up with DW. DW might play better with JC at OH - suppose we will find out later.

    Completely different to the Keatley situation in my opinion, as DW has never been the first choice 9 whereas Keatley has been the first choice 10.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Mc Love wrote: »
    We're not going to win silverware with adequate, he's in the same boat as IK, they're just above AIL standard. I really dont know how they've stayed in the team as long as they have been. I dont think Carbery joined Munster so he could link up with DW. DW might play better with JC at OH - suppose we will find out later.
    You're talking nonsense. Theyve started as their better than other options.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Could imagine Hart looking to go back to France sooner rather than later. No way he came to Munster to play Celtic cup.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Murray is only contracted to the end of the World Cup, right? There might be a first team jersey up for grabs 12 months from now which could make it more appealing for a decent foreigner.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    You're talking nonsense. Theyve started as their better than other options.

    Can I please have some of what you're smoking :cool:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Mc Love wrote: »
    Can I please have some of what you're smoking :cool:
    :rolleyes: Then why has he started ahead of so many players over such a period. He isnt fantastic but he's perfectly fine for a second player for the big games.
    Your criticism of DW is incredibly harsh


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    :rolleyes: Then why has he started ahead of so many players over such a period. He isnt fantastic but he's perfectly fine for a second player for the big games.
    Your criticism of DW is incredibly harsh

    For the big games, in Europe? You think he's been perfectly fine? :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Mc Love wrote: »
    For the big games, in Europe? You think he's been perfectly fine? :eek:
    What kind of player would you expect to sign who will be happy to be second string behind Murray. To get little to no game time in big games because of Murray etc. No real decent option is going to come to Munster because of that


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    So we're stuck with him. Great!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,998 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Williams has had spells of poor form where he's been rightly criticised... what goes on with a portion of fans is a failure to recognise and acknowledge when he's playing well. Or allow a poor match to completely write off any good performances he's had. Over the past three seasons he's been one of our more consistent players. He's not good enough to be first choice but I'm happy to have him as backup. Need some new blood to come through at 9 though


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    But he's played more or has more appearances than Murray, so lets say hypothetically we sign a better SH that plays in most of our games and turns out to be one of our better players, should they be dropped when Murray returns?

    probably not the right place for this discussion, so apologies.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Mc Love wrote: »
    So we're stuck with him. Great!
    Look we all know you hate/dislike the guy but you have to be able to see that he's had plenty of decent/good/very good performances. He's behind Murray and will always be compared to him. But that isnt right.
    Mc Love wrote: »
    But he's played more or has more appearances than Murray, so lets say hypothetically we sign a better SH that plays in most of our games and turns out to be one of our better players, should they be dropped when Murray returns?

    probably not the right place for this discussion, so apologies.
    But how many SH guys are going to come here knowing they'll be 2nd choice for biggest of games and not likely be used much in those games considering Conor Murray being so key to success of Munster.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Munster are well stocked at the moment, hard to point to any one position we need an NIE in to be fair.
    I don't buy into the scrum-half despair, Williams is alright in my opinion, and I'd hope that Hart will raise his level if he gets more game-time.
    I certainly wouldn't allow Taute and Botha go if they were performing.

    Munster are going to need a scrum half in the near future if there isn't a big development there via their academy. Murray turns 30 this season and his contract is coming to an end. I'd have a genuine worry that he looks at France for a massive pay out. He has very little left to achieve in Ireland after the RWC. A world class, physical scrum half with a great pass who can kick goals could name their price in the Top14.

    Duncan Williams is 33 this season. I believe his current contract ends at the end of this season and I can see Munster taking a long look at the scrum half market to have a back up to Murray who is also going to see a hell of a lot of game time during a RWC season. I didn't particularly rate Hart when he was in France and I rate him less now. At 27, that ship has sailed.

    I also wouldn't be shocked if they wanted to look at a NIQ prop. Munster have 4 good options at prop, 2 either side. After that, the cupboard is quite bare. There doesn't seem to be huge faith in Scott, Parker, Loughman etc. With Ryan on international duty, I'd be looking for a strong, ball carrying tighthead if I was JVG to put pressure on the jersey and strengthen the front row.


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