Munster vs Ospreys, Fri 14 Sep, 7:35pm, Eir Sports

thomond2006 · 13-09-2018 12:01pm #1

Munster:
Mike Haley; Andrew Conway, Sammy Arnold, Dan Goggin, Darren Sweetnam; Joey Carbery, Duncan Williams;
James Cronin, Rhys Marshall, Stephen Archer; Tadhg Beirne, Darren O’Shea; Peter O’Mahony (C), Chris Cloete, Arno Botha.

Replacements: Mike Sherry, Dave Kilcoyne, John Ryan, Jean Kleyn, Tommy O’Donnell, James Hart, Ian Keatley, Jaco Taute.

OSPREYS

15 James Hook
14 Tom Williams
13 Joe Thomas
12 Cory Allen
11 Luke Morgan
10 Sam Davies
9 Tom Habberfield

1 Rhodri Jones
2 Scott Baldwin
3 Tom Botha
4 Giorgi Nemsadze
5 Adam Beard
6 Olly Cracknell (Capt)
7 Morgan Morris
8 Sam Cross

REPLACEMENTS

16 Ifan Phillips
17 Nicky Smith
18 Alex Jeffries
19 James Ratti
20 Guido Volpi
21 Matthew Aubrey
22 Tiaan Thomas-Wheeler
23 Hanno Dirksen

Luke Morgan makes his Guinness PRO14 debut
Morgan Morris makes his first PRO14 start
Guido Volpi will make his Ospreys debut if he comes off the bench

The following players were unavailable for selection due to injury:

Lloyd Ashley – Shoulder
Dan Baker – Knee
Gheorghe Gajion – Hamstring
Keelan Giles – Knee
Paul James – Shoulder
Will Jones – Shoulder
Lesley Klim – Hamstring
Rob McCusker – Calf
Sam Parry – Bicep
Luke Price- Fractured tibia
Gareth Thomas – Shoulder
Scott Williams – Hamstring

Chris Cloete and Peter O'Mahony return!

thomond2006 · 13-09-2018 12:05pm

13-09-2018 12:13pm

That's a strong Munster team, they'll have too much for Ospreys. JJ completely out of the frame - feel for him to be honest but not unexpected.

Strong backrow and Beirne get's his first start. Expect a much tighter performance this week.

Buer · 13-09-2018 12:15pm

Looks like the Ospreys are trying to focus on certain games and this isn't one of them. They've rested all their big names; only 3 players remain from the side that beat the Cheetahs. Shame as this is normally a cracker of a fixture but Munster pack is far too strong for the Ospreys to handle them.

thomond2006 · 13-09-2018 12:17pm

The line reflects the lineups. Munster are 16 point favourites.

Edit: Now they're 18!

thomond2006 · 13-09-2018 12:24pm

Now it's 20. They don't wait around.

kuang1 · 13-09-2018 12:33pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Now it's 20. They don't wait around.

Money must've flooded in.

thomond2006 · 13-09-2018 12:38pm

But it's only the Irish sides that disrespect the competition with second string lineups...

AdamD · 13-09-2018 1:17pm

Ospreys could get battered here

Boscoirl · 13-09-2018 2:44pm

AdamD wrote: »

Ospreys could get battered here

We could get to 99 phases before we turn it over on the try line :P

sydthebeat · 13-09-2018 3:11pm

munster -23 now !!!

AWJ must be having his minutes minded

thomond2006 · 13-09-2018 5:00pm

This makes three consecutive starts at number eight for Arno Botha. POM/Cloete/Stander is the obvious first choice backrow but the bench spot between TOD and Botha is up for grabs.

aloooof · 13-09-2018 5:53pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

munster -23 now !!!

AWJ must be having his minutes minded

Was -10 before the teams were announced. Some movement.

ScrubsfanChris · 13-09-2018 6:11pm

Buer wrote: »

Looks like the Ospreys are trying to focus on certain games and this isn't one of them. They've rested all their big names; only 3 players remain from the side that beat the Cheetahs. Shame as this is normally a cracker of a fixture but Munster pack is far too strong for the Ospreys to handle them.

Cracker yes but not very competitive in recent years.

2017: 36-10
2017: 23-03
2016: 33-0

Mookie Blaylock · 13-09-2018 7:55pm

Can't see this being anything but a Munster win...but a tight one...10 points at best... we're off the pace so far, players being eased back into duty and think the bookies are extracting the urine a little with their spread.

sydthebeat · 13-09-2018 8:15pm

Mookie Blaylock wrote: »

Can't see this being anything but a Munster win...but a tight one...10 points at best... we're off the pace so far, players being eased back into duty and think the bookies are extracting the urine a little with their spread.

To a man the munster forwards are better than their counterparts....

Munster should be able to choose what figure they want to win by.

I'll be shocked if its less than 20 (on a dry track)

Mookie Blaylock · 13-09-2018 8:23pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

To a man the munster forwards are better than their counterparts....

Munster should be able to choose what figure they want to win by.

I'll be shocked if its less than 20 (on a dry track)

It's not about being better, it's about game fitness levels

sydthebeat · 13-09-2018 8:31pm

Mookie Blaylock wrote: »

It's not about being better, it's about game fitness levels

Are you actually serious???

This is going to be the first start in a pro 14 game this season from practically ALL that ospreys team.....

There are two teams playing this game you know.....

yerrahbah · 13-09-2018 8:55pm

That backrow though...
No surprise to see JJ not included, Carbery needs starts and Keatley needs gametime.
Three into two doesn't go.

turnikett1 · 14-09-2018 6:53am

It's still depressing to know that if Carbery gets injured we are back to square one. The dream team of Keatley and Hanrahan. Will Johnston be getting more of a look in soon? I haven't really been following the Munster A matches. Even as the 22 we can't persist with JJ and Keatley. We know what they offer. There are no more chances to shine, their ceiling is well and truly hit.
If Carbery gets injured and Murray stays out for a few months, things start to look pretty bleak again. Sorry to be the pessimist but the key to this Munster side is health. Concerning drop off between 1st and 2nd choice in a few positions.

turnikett1 · 14-09-2018 6:53am

It's still depressing to know that if Carbery gets injured we are back to square one. The dream team of Keatley and Hanrahan. Will Johnston be getting more of a look in soon? I haven't really been following the Munster A matches. Even as the 22 we can't persist with JJ and Keatley. We know what they offer. There are no more chances to shine, their ceiling is well and truly hit.
If Carbery gets injured and Murray stays out for a few months, things start to look pretty bleak again. Sorry to be the pessimist but the key to this Munster side is health. Concerning drop off between 1st and 2nd choice in a few positions.

Mc Love · 14-09-2018 8:36am

We're back at square one partnering Joey with Duncan (the boy wonder) Williams

Buer · 14-09-2018 8:38am

Mc Love wrote: »

We're back at square one partnering Joey with Duncan (the boy wonder) Williams

He was one of your best performers last week. He's not a world beater but I'll never understand the level of sh*t he gets from fans.

He's a completely adequate Pro14 scrum half.

Cookiemunster · 14-09-2018 8:58am

Buer wrote: »

He was one of your best performers last week. He's not a world beater but I'll never understand the level of sh*t he gets from fans.

He's a completely adequate Pro14 scrum half.

You don't watch him every week. Perfectly adequate isn't good enough when you play so many games without Murray. And it looks like we'll be relying on him in the first two rounds in Europe. His previous record in big European games is pretty bad. The thought of him starting at 9 in Exeter fills me with dread.

Now saying that I wouldn't be one of those to abuse him, as I blame Munster rugby for persevering for so long with a player when it's obvious a better backup was needed to Murray for years.

The Lost Sheep · 14-09-2018 9:16am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

You don't watch him every week. Perfectly adequate isn't good enough when you play so many games without Murray. And it looks like we'll be relying on him in the first two rounds in Europe. His previous record in big European games is pretty bad. The thought of him starting at 9 in Exeter fills me with dread.

Now saying that I wouldn't be one of those to abuse him, as I blame Munster rugby for persevering for so long with a player when it's obvious a better backup was needed to Murray for years.

But Munster have had plenty of academy and other senior contracted scrum halfs and none have done enough on a regular basis to surpass him as back up to CM. That isnt Munster's fault.
He isnt good enough to start at 9 in european games but he's still showwn himself as better than others as back up for years.
He has generally done better in the last year or two than he had for years before hand.

aloooof · 14-09-2018 9:22am

Buer wrote: »

... but I'll never understand the level of sh*t he gets from fans.

He seems to attract more ire than most, alright. I reckon it's at least partly down to the position and the scrum-cap.

Buer · 14-09-2018 9:28am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

You don't watch him every week. Perfectly adequate isn't good enough when you play so many games without Murray. And it looks like we'll be relying on him in the first two rounds in Europe. His previous record in big European games is pretty bad. The thought of him starting at 9 in Exeter fills me with dread.

Now saying that I wouldn't be one of those to abuse him, as I blame Munster rugby for persevering for so long with a player when it's obvious a better backup was needed to Murray for years.

I would say I'd watch about 80% of Munster's matches so yeah, I watch him most weeks if he features. His shortcomings are clear but it still doesn't come close to the level of grief he gets. He puts in some very solid performances in the Pro14 which is the level he's expected to deliver at.

DW tends to be the automatic go to guy for criticism if things aren't going well despite the pack in front of him having been well beaten at times. Conor Murray had a pretty insipid spell for Munster towards the end of last season which was largely glossed over. If Williams had been on the field, he'd have been hung out to dry by some.

Munster cannot just magic up a replacement. They've been seeking to improve their options at 9 but Williams is the best of the rest and has done a solid enough job. Leinster are the only province with a definitively better second choice scrum half and that's due to using a NIQ spot on him as a project player. Munster had needs elsewhere and couldn't afford to do that for a sub. They've tried TOL, Stringer (who requested to leave), Hart and now Cronin.

I suspect in the next 1-2 years they will indeed use a NIQ spot on a scrum half as Conor Murray turns 30 this season and they'll look to future proof.

Cookiemunster · 14-09-2018 9:58am

Trust me, Murrays late season form was not glossed over in the circles I move in.

phog · 14-09-2018 10:14am

Where do we get a better scrumhalf than Williams? The "anyone or my granny would do better doesn't wash as we've seen no one has come close to knocking him off his perch.

Also, in a lot of the games where he has under performed its behind a losing pack with him getting poor or slow ball. We've all seen him trying to marshal guys into an attacking or receiving line but he gets the blame for slow ball - it's fairly simple a scrumhalf needs someone to pass the ball to.

I understand the annoyance at Munster but I can't accept the abuse he gets nor could I accept the booing Keatley got. It rankles with me that fans can go that low.

thomond2006 · 14-09-2018 10:39am

Williams is an average dirtracker scrum-half. In fairness Munster are trying to move on from him as he turns 33 in April and have had a number of scrum-halves in the academy that didn't make it over the last number of seasons. Given the current state of contracts (all four senior scrum-halves are out of contract while two NIEs in Botha and Taute are also), Munster will have the option of using an NIE spot on a scrum-half if necessary.

Cookiemunster · 14-09-2018 10:47am

thomond2006 wrote: »

Williams is an average dirtracker scrum-half. In fairness Munster are trying to move on from him as he turns 33 in April and have had a number of scrum-halves in the academy that didn't make it over the last number of seasons. Given the current state of contracts (all four senior scrum-halves are out of contract while two NIEs in Botha and Taute are also), Munster will have the option of using an NIE spot on a scrum-half if necessary.

Don't forget that both Kleyn and Marshall will be IQ at the start of next season too. Plenty of scope for NIQs next year (although probably not the money).

sioda · 14-09-2018 11:07am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Don't forget that both Kleyn and Marshall will be IQ at the start of next season too. Plenty of scope for NIQs next year (although probably not the money).

Am I the only person who is worried Rassie might try and get our ZA players back to play for the national side.

shootermacg · 14-09-2018 11:09am

sioda wrote: »

Am I the only person who is worried Rassie might try and get our ZA players back to play for the national side.

I don't think so, I'd say the quota mandate still stands despite the sound bites.

phog · 14-09-2018 11:13am

thomond2006 wrote: »

Williams is an average dirtracker scrum-half. In fairness Munster are trying to move on from him as he turns 33 in April and have had a number of scrum-halves in the academy that didn't make it over the last number of seasons. Given the current state of contracts (all four senior scrum-halves are out of contract while two NIEs in Botha and Taute are also), Munster will have the option of using an NIE spot on a scrum-half if necessary.

What quality NIE scrumhalf will come to Munster to sit behind Murray?

Buer · 14-09-2018 11:23am

There's no need to be concerned about Erasmus poaching anyone. The RWC is 12 months out and he's not going to be looking at bringing guys in at this point. The two already capped guys (Botha and Taute) aren't vital to Munster given there are very good options in their positions. Both of their contracts are up at the end of this season and I'd expect one of them to leave to allow a NIQ spot be used in a more pressing position.

thomond2006 · 14-09-2018 11:56am

phog wrote: »

What quality NIE scrumhalf will come to Munster to sit behind Murray?

You're looking at a level like a JGP realistically, or a rare case like a Matawalu who can be used in other field positions.

Ideally Cronin or Hart develop into a suitable backup, but the option is there to delve into the market.

Jump_In_Jack · 14-09-2018 12:04pm

Buer wrote: »

There's no need to be concerned about Erasmus poaching anyone. The RWC is 12 months out and he's not going to be looking at bringing guys in at this point. The two already capped guys (Botha and Taute) aren't vital to Munster given there are very good options in their positions. Both of their contracts are up at the end of this season and I'd expect one of them to leave to allow a NIQ spot be used in a more pressing position.

Munster are well stocked at the moment, hard to point to any one position we need an NIE in to be fair.
I don't buy into the scrum-half despair, Williams is alright in my opinion, and I'd hope that Hart will raise his level if he gets more game-time.
I certainly wouldn't allow Taute and Botha go if they were performing.

Mc Love · 14-09-2018 12:13pm

Buer wrote: »

He was one of your best performers last week. He's not a world beater but I'll never understand the level of sh*t he gets from fans.

He's a completely adequate Pro14 scrum half.

We're not going to win silverware with adequate, he's in the same boat as IK, they're just above AIL standard. I really dont know how they've stayed in the team as long as they have been. I dont think Carbery joined Munster so he could link up with DW. DW might play better with JC at OH - suppose we will find out later.

aloooof · 14-09-2018 12:17pm

Mc Love wrote: »

We're not going to win silverware with adequate, he's in the same boat as IK, they're just above AIL standard. I really dont know how they've stayed in the team as long as they have been. I dont think Carbery joined Munster so he could link up with DW. DW might play better with JC at OH - suppose we will find out later.

Completely different to the Keatley situation in my opinion, as DW has never been the first choice 9 whereas Keatley has been the first choice 10.

The Lost Sheep · 14-09-2018 12:21pm

Mc Love wrote: »

We're not going to win silverware with adequate, he's in the same boat as IK, they're just above AIL standard. I really dont know how they've stayed in the team as long as they have been. I dont think Carbery joined Munster so he could link up with DW. DW might play better with JC at OH - suppose we will find out later.

You're talking nonsense. Theyve started as their better than other options.

14-09-2018 12:27pm

Could imagine Hart looking to go back to France sooner rather than later. No way he came to Munster to play Celtic cup.

Former Former · 14-09-2018 12:31pm

Murray is only contracted to the end of the World Cup, right? There might be a first team jersey up for grabs 12 months from now which could make it more appealing for a decent foreigner.

Mc Love · 14-09-2018 12:33pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You're talking nonsense. Theyve started as their better than other options.

Can I please have some of what you're smoking :cool:

The Lost Sheep · 14-09-2018 12:51pm

Mc Love wrote: »

Can I please have some of what you're smoking :cool:

:rolleyes: Then why has he started ahead of so many players over such a period. He isnt fantastic but he's perfectly fine for a second player for the big games.
Your criticism of DW is incredibly harsh

Mc Love · 14-09-2018 12:52pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

:rolleyes: Then why has he started ahead of so many players over such a period. He isnt fantastic but he's perfectly fine for a second player for the big games.
Your criticism of DW is incredibly harsh

For the big games, in Europe? You think he's been perfectly fine? :eek:

The Lost Sheep · 14-09-2018 12:54pm

Mc Love wrote: »

For the big games, in Europe? You think he's been perfectly fine? :eek:

What kind of player would you expect to sign who will be happy to be second string behind Murray. To get little to no game time in big games because of Murray etc. No real decent option is going to come to Munster because of that

Mc Love · 14-09-2018 1:03pm

So we're stuck with him. Great!

leakyboots · 14-09-2018 1:04pm

Williams has had spells of poor form where he's been rightly criticised... what goes on with a portion of fans is a failure to recognise and acknowledge when he's playing well. Or allow a poor match to completely write off any good performances he's had. Over the past three seasons he's been one of our more consistent players. He's not good enough to be first choice but I'm happy to have him as backup. Need some new blood to come through at 9 though

Mc Love · 14-09-2018 1:09pm

But he's played more or has more appearances than Murray, so lets say hypothetically we sign a better SH that plays in most of our games and turns out to be one of our better players, should they be dropped when Murray returns?

probably not the right place for this discussion, so apologies.

The Lost Sheep · 14-09-2018 1:21pm

Mc Love wrote: »

So we're stuck with him. Great!

Look we all know you hate/dislike the guy but you have to be able to see that he's had plenty of decent/good/very good performances. He's behind Murray and will always be compared to him. But that isnt right.

Mc Love wrote: »

But he's played more or has more appearances than Murray, so lets say hypothetically we sign a better SH that plays in most of our games and turns out to be one of our better players, should they be dropped when Murray returns?

probably not the right place for this discussion, so apologies.

But how many SH guys are going to come here knowing they'll be 2nd choice for biggest of games and not likely be used much in those games considering Conor Murray being so key to success of Munster.

Buer · 14-09-2018 1:51pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Munster are well stocked at the moment, hard to point to any one position we need an NIE in to be fair.
I don't buy into the scrum-half despair, Williams is alright in my opinion, and I'd hope that Hart will raise his level if he gets more game-time.
I certainly wouldn't allow Taute and Botha go if they were performing.

Munster are going to need a scrum half in the near future if there isn't a big development there via their academy. Murray turns 30 this season and his contract is coming to an end. I'd have a genuine worry that he looks at France for a massive pay out. He has very little left to achieve in Ireland after the RWC. A world class, physical scrum half with a great pass who can kick goals could name their price in the Top14.

Duncan Williams is 33 this season. I believe his current contract ends at the end of this season and I can see Munster taking a long look at the scrum half market to have a back up to Murray who is also going to see a hell of a lot of game time during a RWC season. I didn't particularly rate Hart when he was in France and I rate him less now. At 27, that ship has sailed.

I also wouldn't be shocked if they wanted to look at a NIQ prop. Munster have 4 good options at prop, 2 either side. After that, the cupboard is quite bare. There doesn't seem to be huge faith in Scott, Parker, Loughman etc. With Ryan on international duty, I'd be looking for a strong, ball carrying tighthead if I was JVG to put pressure on the jersey and strengthen the front row.

Munster vs Ospreys, Fri 14 Sep, 7:35pm, Eir Sports

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