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Irish Rail September Timetable Changes

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    #482
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    That smells a bit like work to rule.

    Are driver grievances fully ironed out?

    Think the issue is all available staff and trains are in use. There's no backup in cause a driver is sick or a train fails.

    You get what you pay for it seems. Years of underinvestment is coming home to roost. Even the extra money they did put in isnt enough to make up for thar neglect. Only this morning there was calls on the radio about getting DU built as a priority as the current setup is basically victorian infrastructure.


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    #483
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Infini wrote: »
    Think the issue is all available staff and trains are in use. There's no backup in cause a driver is sick or a train fails.!

    I have heard very different and what I have seen suggests that some staff are not really helping the situation.


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    #484
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Is it at all possible that the mechanical fault this morning at Howth was in fact a form of protest?


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    #485
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    ixoy wrote: »
    Is it at all possible that the mechanical fault this morning at Howth was in fact a form of protest?

    Anything is possible, but highly unlikely I would have thought, from what I understand the issues have been with staff not being present for staff or train handovers rather than people failing serviceable trains.


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    #486
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    devnull wrote: »
    In a word from an excellent source: no.

    Will they ever?

    In a word from an excellent source: no.


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    #487
    Kh1993
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭Kh1993


    Another disaster this morning. Trains full even by Raheny this morning, let alone the Killester pics alone. Staff at Connolly weren’t surprised at problems. There isn’t enough capacity on the northside in the mornings, notwithstanding the breakdown this morning.

    This was predicted by passengers, by staff, basically everyone other than the “frequency improvement” cheerleaders. The situation is far past the stage where we can wait a week or two. The capacity just isn’t there. 8 carriages becoming 2 4 carriages a few minutes earlier doesn’t improve capacity, and certainly doesn’t make up for the diesels taking a good 100 people per train at Portmarnock/Clongriffin/HJ.


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    #488
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Seems clear they need to revert until they have sufficient capacity. We're past teething issues.
    How likely are they to eat humble pie? Clearly can't wait until the December review.


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    #489
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    ixoy wrote: »
    Seems clear they need to revert until they have sufficient capacity. We're past teething issues.
    How likely are they to eat humble pie? Clearly can't wait until the December review.

    Luas took more than 4 days to bed in. If you revert now you won't know if some tinkering can fix it or is it fundamentally unworkable


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    #490
    PCros
    Registered Users Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭PCros


    Kh1993 wrote: »
    Another disaster this morning. Trains full even by Raheny this morning, let alone the Killester pics alone.

    What time was this at?

    I got the 7:55 DART from Portmarnock and it wasn't at all busy compared to the same time on Monday when it was rammed. Plus the stations onwards were not busy at all.

    Wondering what they did here...


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    #491
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,860 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Thameslink May 2018 timetable change ( possibly the largest PT messup recently seen) had an emergency timetable very quickly put in its stead to manage the lack of trained drivers and lots of other factors seen ( still in place and only back on an even keel recently ) . Something similar might work here.


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    #492
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,173 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    trellheim wrote: »
    Thameslink May 2018 timetable change ( possibly the largest PT messup recently seen) had an emergency timetable very quickly put in its stead to manage the lack of trained drivers and lots of other factors seen ( still in place and only back on an even keel recently ) . Something similar might work here.


    If they cant get a timetable right with months of planning what do you think the chances are of them getting it right while under time pressure?


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    #493
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    If they cant get a timetable right with months of planning what do you think the chances are of them getting it right while under time pressure?

    I don't think it helps to be so confrontational.
    Where is the evidence that 'they haven't got the timetable right'?


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    #494
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,173 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    marieholmfan wrote: »
    I don't think it helps to be so confrontational.
    Where is the evidence that 'they haven't got the timetable right'?


    All the complaints would suggest it is not.


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    #495
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    marieholmfan wrote: »
    Where is the evidence that 'they haven't got the timetable right'?
    Well theres none obviously, if you choose to ignore all the complaints made to date on this thread, and others.


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    #496
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,987 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Luas took more than 4 days to bed in. If you revert now you won't know if some tinkering can fix it or is it fundamentally unworkable

    no amount of tinkering will fix the reality that there is not enough units to meet the needed capacity to cary the people wanting to use the service. the only tinkering that might be helpful is re-stopping the droghida/dundalk suburbans at portmarnock and howth junction but that would increase their journey times again and they have already had an increase dispite having stops removed.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #497
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    From what I have understood, some of the issues with trains being too short is because of a driver that should be available is not taking a train, which means another set has to be subbed in to keep the timetable operational.

    For example if a driver from A isn't available for a certain reason, they'll have to get a driver from B which may involve in a different trainset operating that service.


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    #498
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    no amount of tinkering will fix the reality that there is not enough units to meet the needed capacity to cary the people wanting to use the service. the only tinkering that might be helpful is re-stopping the droghida/dundalk suburbans at portmarnock and howth junction but that would increase their journey times again and they have already had an increase dispite having stops removed.

    We haven't had a day yet where all of the units that where meant to run have run.

    4 days straight of breakdowns, odd that .

    But realistically even if they get it right it will be paper thin in terms of redundancy it would seem.


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    #499
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    We haven't had a day yet where all of the units that where meant to run have run.

    4 days straight of breakdowns, odd that .

    But realistically even if they get it right it will be paper thin in terms of redundancy it would seem.

    They were too ambitious I think with the 10m service right now without the proper fallback systems in place. 12m service would probably have been a better option to start with then increase capacity/frequency after getting more hardware and staff.


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    #500
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    According to Wikipedia, IR has 144 Dart carriages, which equates to 18 car sets of 8 carriages. It takes 1.25 hours to get from Bray to Howth, and another 1.25 to get back. Giving 10 minutes to turn around at each end, that requires 17 trains of eight carriages. Not much slack. They stretch this by using trains of six coaches using 8300 class units. Of course, Greystones and Malahide stretch this beyond capacity, and slower running also does not help.

    It would be better to standardise on four car sets and run either four or eight car sets, and run four car sets at ten minutes interval as normal, but eight car sets at particular departures, so that high demand trains always have eight coaches. During the off-peak times, a four coach train would cover demand (from my observations).

    Another way is to introduce a shuttle for the Howth Junction to Howth service, running a fifteen minute service (or better) using two four car sets, or two six car sets. This would allow the ten minute service to Malahide, but I am unsure how this would affect the commuter and Enterprise services. A passing loop for both directions at Clongriffin and Clontarf might be needed.

    They need more Dart trains.


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    #501
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Infini wrote: »
    They were too ambitious I think with the 10m service right now without the proper fallback systems in place. 12m service would probably have been a better option to start with then increase capacity/frequency after getting more hardware and staff.

    12 minute service doesn't work, how are you going to split that between Howth and Malahide and keep it at a proper easy to remember timetable? It's going to be a different time each hour based on that, since 60 to 12 doesn't go equal for two branches.


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    #502
    uxiant
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭uxiant


    New timetable has been excellent from my experience although I miss the height of rush hour as I tend to get the train into work just before 9 and leave a little later. Finally our suburban rail service runs at a somewhat decent frequency.

    Sounds like the only issue is a few 4 carriage DARTs being being overcrowded. Hopefully IR can spare a few more 8 car sets for these services but I imagine in time people will start making use of the added frequency and the loads will spread out. My dad only realised there was a new timetable when I told him yesterday and I imagine others are still turning up for the train at the same time leading to overcrowding.


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    #503
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Irish rail spent a year of no rail service on weekends to lengthen platforms for 8 car darts and then didn't buy enough carriages.
    Genuises.


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    #504
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Irish rail spent a year of no rail service on weekends to lengthen platforms for 8 car darts and then didn't buy enough carriages.
    Genuises.

    They can only spend the money they've been given in fairness


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    #505
    Decuc500
    Registered Users Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭Decuc500


    uxiant wrote: »
    New timetable has been excellent from my experience although I miss the height of rush hour as I tend to get the train into work just before 9 and leave a little later. Finally our suburban rail service runs at a somewhat decent frequency.

    Sounds like the only issue is a few 4 carriage DARTs being being overcrowded. Hopefully IR can spare a few more 8 car sets for these services but I imagine in time people will start making use of the added frequency and the loads will spread out. My dad only realised there was a new timetable when I told him yesterday and I imagine others are still turning up for the train at the same time leading to overcrowding.

    There's more than 'a few' 4 car sets in operation with the new timetable. From my experience most trains from Malahide and Howth before 9 am are short trains. This combined with 20 minute gaps means it's been chaos every morning on the northside.

    I've been using the dart for over 25 years and this weeks rush hours have been the worst overcrowding I've ever seen on it.

    They quite simply don't have enough carriages for an all day 10 minute service. But they already knew that.


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    #506
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    uxiant wrote: »
    New timetable has been excellent from my experience although I miss the height of rush hour as I tend to get the train into work just before 9 and leave a little later. Finally our suburban rail service runs at a somewhat decent frequency.
    Are you travelling in from the southside or northside? The issues seem to be disproportionately affecting the northside, not least because of the removal of the diesel trains from some stations.


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    #507
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Decuc500 wrote: »
    There's more than 'a few' 4 car sets in operation with the new timetable. From my experience most trains from Malahide and Howth before 9 am are short trains. This combined with 20 minute gaps means it's been chaos every morning on the northside.

    I've been using the dart for over 25 years and this weeks rush hours have been the worst overcrowding I've ever seen on it.

    They quite simply don't have enough carriages for an all day 10 minute service. But they already knew that.
    Where are all the 8 car sets in the morning?


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    #508
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,470 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Where are all the 8 car sets in the morning?

    half here and half there :pac:


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    #509
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,669 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Find it hard to believe that all these "mechanical faults" are true. Would be good to see driver absenteeism this week over last week. Its no surprise they are not happy but they demanded a shorter week and from day one Irish Rail said that's fine but you will drive more hours within that shorter week. Commuter/DART drivers come out worse than Intercity drivers and anybody could see this. They cannot do anything now to change this so if all these issues run into next week we can conclude it is industrial related.


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    #510
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Find it hard to believe that all these "mechanical faults" are true. Would be good to see driver absenteeism this week over last week. Its no surprise they are not happy but they demanded a shorter week and from day one Irish Rail said that's fine but you will drive more hours within that shorter week. Commuter/DART drivers come out worse than Intercity drivers and anybody could see this. They cannot do anything now to change this so if all these issues run into next week we can conclude it is industrial related.

    I believe there is also a split in the driver grade for DART services, apparently some are on one set of terms and conditions and one may be on another set, not sure if that's true or not but something I've heard on the grapevine.

    Still don't believe the idea that they're faking mechanical faults, it could just be that some of the 8 carriages I heard were restored to service this week after being out for a while are just having some issues after being idle for so long.

    Also, if a driver isn't driving a train that they are scheduled to, it doesn't necessarily mean it's because they are sick or absent, there could be other reasons for it.


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    #511
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,669 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    devnull wrote: »
    I believe there is also a split in the driver grade for DART services, apparently some are on one set of terms and conditions and one may be on another set, not sure if that's true or not but something I've heard on the grapevine.

    Still don't believe the idea that they're faking mechanical faults, it could just be that some of the 8 carriages I heard were restored to service this week after being out for a while are just having some issues after being idle for so long.

    Not sure about separate conditions but they are driving more this week than they have been used to, probally never doing as much driving since they started....

    As for sets returning to service, they have had 3-4 months to get them ready....


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