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The Frederick St protest and reaction

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    #602
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Keepers of the peace. Nothing peaceful about breaking and entering.

    Was it necessary to have 2 groups of masked security for this? One still unknown with an illegally parked/registered vehicle? This is a scary police response. You can't tell me this was in any way necessary.

    Is there evidence the occupiers were violent and warranted this level of force?


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    #603
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,296 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    J_E wrote: »
    It's the duty of Gardai to follow the law... why were they helping this group?

    Many protests and calls for change have had to sometimes challenge laws. Laws don't define the morality of a nation.

    Challenge laws or outright break laws?

    Laws against breaking and entering private property would be a rather fundamental tenet of any Civic society really.

    Hardly anything oppressive or unusual.


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    #604
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    The eviction team would have rang the Gardahead of time to let them know when they were going to begin eviction proceedings. The Gardaould have assessed the potential for any trouble starting, they would have taken into account the fact that the crusties were already ignoring a court order and likely to resist. The Gardaay not know who employed the eviction team, or if they are even employed, it could be family members or friends of the owner. That is not the Gardai’s concern.

    You start the post as if you're privy to some aspects of this operation, telling me the eviction team called the gards to inform them of their intentions, then proceed to tell me the gards might not know ho employed them(because obviously they wouldn't ask and just turn up nilly willy at everything they're ever asked to wttend)you then suggest it might even have been members of the landlords family..... who all coincidentally just happen to work in the same industry - that of enforcing evictions, who travel around in a clapped out English reg van, with the front plate possibly fallen off, and have a penchant for balaclavas.......

    Am I supposed to take this kind of scutter as serious posting or what?
    There is no obligation for them to wear ID as explained earlier in the thread.
    missed this explanation, not sure who posted it or their qualifications that may or may not make them suitable to state these matters, but I for one would expect anyone calling to my person to carry out any court orders or eviction notices civil or otherwise to at least show identification.
    The vehicle did comply with our road traffic laws, as explained by AGS spokesperson in the Irish Times.
    I read somewhere online that the guards responded to a vehicle check that reported the vehicle was untaxed since 2014, nothing about the missing registration plate at the front.

    As far as I'm aware, a vehicle must display front and rear registration plates in Ireland. If there's a way of complying with rules of the road without displaying one, i am open to your explanation.

    Off you go.
    Could you explain what law the eviction team broke?

    Apart from me questioning the legality of their partially displayed registration plates, and as to whether or not that is legal on the states road's, I don't believe I ever suggested if their eviction was legal or not.


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    #605
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yep, pick up their kids from a €1500/2000 a month creche whatever the cost of it is, and then commute home to the arse end of Westmeath or wherever and probably muttering every mile of the way home about their miserable lifestyle. We did this during Celtic Tiger 1 and moaned mightily about it. Celtic Tiger 2 The Sequel finds us doing the exact same thing again and seemingly willing to do nothing about it.

    F**k it, you know what, the Pavlovian worshippers of the system deserve their long miserable commutes if they continue to buy into a concept that treats them so badly in the long run.
    How utterly nasty.

    To speak about people who have to put their children in creche because they cannot give up work, who have bought their own home but all they can afford is one that is a long commute, in such a way. But they're the bad ones, those blocking them from getting home to their children and the precious little free time they have... yeah they're the good guys.

    The quoted is what's ****ing pavlovian.


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    #606
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Only reading this thread and incident from abroad now. Terrific to see the protest, long may it continue.


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    #607
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    J_E wrote: »
    It's the duty of Gardai to follow the law... why were they helping this group?

    Many protests and calls for change have had to sometimes challenge laws. Laws don't define the morality of a nation.

    so do you want the gardai to uphold the law as you see it or the law as it is ? coz you cant have it both ways kid


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    #608
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 28,924 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    As many as it takes to cause widespread deflation in the rental market and ensure that nobody has to obliterate their disposable income just to have a roof over their head. I don't have figures for how much social housing DCC had to build during the 1930s in order to ease the crisis, but I can do some rough estimates given that I've studied a lot of those blocks fairly substantially and can give a rough estimate as to how many units fit in each estate and how many of these estates there are across the city. It's made more complicated by the fact that some of them have been demolished though. I'll try and source these figures and do some calculations for you so we can at least have the benchmark of how many they had to build in the first half of the 20th century.

    I know that the number stretches into the thousands at the very least (even just three - Dolphin House, O'Devaney Gardens and Teresa's Gardens - break the 1,000 figure easily when put together) but just to give you an idea, one of those red-bricked blocks with the circular stairwell towers adjacent holds exactly 48 flats over five storeys - technically eight flats per storey, but the upper two rows are in fact duplexes. Most of those developments in the city are built in groups of 2-5 blocks - Stephen's Green / Cuffe Street has two, Bishop Street has three, Chamber Street used to have three, Charlemont Street used to have 5 - so straight away in a relatively small stretch of the South Inner City, 13 such blocks with 48 flats in each, for a grand total of 585 units. And that's scraping the tip of the iceberg to be honest - the Mercer Street development beside the Cuffe Street one is absolutely vast, it's just harder to count it because several of its blocks are internal ones with buildings surrounding them, so you don't just pass them by when walking through town. I'll have a look on Google Street View later.

    So this could take me a while, but I'll attempt to get figures for you on what we did before, right up until the end of the 1980s when the God-awful era of "the free market matters more than human life and happiness" began.
    Two things strike me from your post above, and since you seem to be well clued up on all of this maybe you might answer my questions?


    Firstly, if you want "widespread deflation" in the rental market, is that not going to lead to an even bigger scramble of landlords getting out of the rental business than is currently underway, as it will no longer be in any way profitable (being a landlord is a business they're entitled to make a profit, they too have to live after all).


    Secondly, almost all of the developments you sing the praises of have been demolished, Dolphin House is the only one I know of that's being redveloped in anything like its previous form. Does this not say something - like, that model failed? Clustering social housing in small areas like that was a disaster, the government seems determined not to go down that road again.


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    #609
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    mynamejeff wrote: »
    so do you want the gardai to uphold the law as you see it or the law as it is ? coz you cant have it both ways kid

    I want the Gardai to respond with appropriate force, be identifiable, and not be supporting mysterious private hired help who should not be assisted in such a manner.

    This whole thing could have been handled in a very different way. This is going to cause war now because of the heavy-handed response and questionable tactics.

    There is no question of Gardai not handling the law. Why did they have to handle it in this way though?


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    #610
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »
    The point I'm making is that you should similarly have to apply for permission to leave a house vacant.


    So next time I head off for a weekend to watch the Dubs, who do I apply to for permission to leave my house vacant?


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    #611
    RobbieMD
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭RobbieMD


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    That's a bit far fetched, now.

    I see Gardaí monitoring the property of (what i assume to be) a drug-cartel member every day on my commute to work. They never wear a disguise. Gardaí do dangerous, very brave, work every day of the week, around people who clearly represent a threat to their lives -- maybe even their families' lives.

    Are you seriously telling me these cops are lying awake at night worried about people saying mean things about them on Facebook? That they are afraid of so-called 'crusties'? If they are, maybe they've chosen the wrong career.

    I don't think they're lying awake at night worried about mean things being said about them, or are afraid of crusties. It's more about Facebook groups organising to congregate at their homes and kids schools and partners workplace with placards saying how they're uniformed thugs etc.

    People including Gardai, should be able to go to work, do their job, and come home without that sort of harassment and intimidation, generally done by cowardly types who'll hide in a crowd behind mobile phone and shouts of peaceful protest.


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    #612
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    blanch152 wrote: »
    So next time I head off for a weekend to watch the Dubs, who do I apply to for permission to leave my house vacant?

    You intend on returning to it. i think intent is the key here. Being away from the house and dereliction are two different things. Defining them legally is the harder challenge.


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    #613
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    around in a clapped out English reg van, .

    I never realised you were a mechanic. How else do you know that the van is clapped out?


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    #614
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    J_E wrote: »
    You intend on returning to it. i think intent is the key here. Being away from the house and dereliction are two different things. Defining them legally is the harder challenge.

    What if I decide next year to collect my hard-earned public service pension and head to Spain for half a decade, while keeping my house in Dublin in case I want to return.

    Do I need permission for that?


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    #615
    Thatnastyboy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭Thatnastyboy


    J_E wrote: »
    You intend on returning to it. i think intent is the key here. Being away from the house and dereliction are two different things. Defining them legally is the harder challenge.

    Suppose you could make the definition of derelict quite broad and easy to exploit. That way you could end up with a figure of around 10,000 fairly sharpish.


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    #616
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 28,924 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    blanch152 wrote: »
    What if I decide next year to collect my hard-earned public service pension and head to Spain for half a decade, while keeping my house in Dublin in case I want to return.

    Do I need permission for that?
    Jesus, don't mention a public service pension :eek:


    You'll send half the contributors to this thread over the edge!


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    #617
    Iodine1
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭Iodine1


    J_E wrote: »
    It's the duty of Gardai to follow the law... why were they helping this group?

    It just so happens the Gardai were upholding the law. The "peaceful protesters" were defying a contempt of court order which was passed 2 weeks ago. This is the law and protesters are not above the law and much as you would like to think dont get to decide which laws suit them and which dont. The squatters had 2 weeks to comply peacefully and the chose not to do so. So the rule of law in the country was upheld.


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    #618
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    J_E wrote: »
    Was it necessary to have 2 groups of masked security for this? One still unknown with an illegally parked/registered vehicle? This is a scary police response. You can't tell me this was in any way necessary.

    Is there evidence the occupiers were violent and warranted this level of force?

    Given the history of the types of protesters that surround the likes of Mick Barry and put up pictures of Gardai on Facebook pages and try to intimidate them in their homes and their localities and their families, including their young children, then I am not surprised that the Gardai covered their faces.


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    #619
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    rosser44 wrote: »
    Because its much more likely that he's co-opting a vocal and populist group of anti everything protesters to further his own political career? Like he's done from the get go?

    Do you think he'd be there of there was no cameras or reporters, or a chance to get his name in the paper?

    Rich person sticks up for the poor they are showboating. Poor person sticks up for the poor they are greedy and want "free stuff".
    Ya can't win.


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    #620
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    It just so happens the Gardai were upholding the law. The "peaceful protesters" were defying a contempt of court order which was passed 2 weeks ago. This is the law and protesters are not above the law and much as you would like to think dont get to decide which laws suit them and which dont. The squatters had 2 weeks to comply peacefully and the chose not to do so. So the rule of law in the country was upheld.
    And what of this private group in the unregistered van, so?


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    #621
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    HeidiHeidi wrote: »
    Jesus, don't mention a public service pension :eek:


    You'll send half the contributors to this thread over the edge!

    Mine will be a lot less than Richard Boyd-Barrett's or Paul Murphy's, so I guess I am entitled to it.


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    #622
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,245 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    blanch152 wrote: »
    What if I decide next year to collect my hard-earned public service pension and head to Spain for half a decade, while keeping my house in Dublin in case I want to return.

    Do I need permission for that?

    We’ll be doing that sometime in the future. We’ll rent the house in Dublin though. The rent will provide a cosy lifestyle on the costa! Short term lets only. We won’t have any threshold advised numpties deciding they don’t need to pay simply because they don’t want to.

    :D


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    #623
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,750 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    J_E wrote: »
    And what of this private group in the unregistered van, so?

    A van has to be registered somewhere, or it is not a van.


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    #624
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    You start the post as if you're privy to some aspects of this operation, telling me the eviction team called the gards to inform them of their intentions, then proceed to tell me the gards might not know ho employed them(because obviously they wouldn't ask and just turn up nilly willy at everything they're ever asked to wttend)you then suggest it might even have been members of the landlords family..... who all coincidentally just happen to work in the same industry - that of enforcing evictions, who travel around in a clapped out English reg van, with the front plate possibly fallen off, and have a penchant for balaclavas.......

    Am I supposed to take this kind of scutter as serious posting or what?
    missed this explanation, not sure who posted it or their qualifications that may or may not make them suitable to state these matters, but I for one would expect anyone calling to my person to carry out any court orders or eviction notices civil or otherwise to at least show identification.

    I read somewhere online that the guards responded to a vehicle check that reported the vehicle was untaxed since 2014, nothing about the missing registration plate at the front.

    As far as I'm aware, a vehicle must display front and rear registration plates in Ireland. If there's a way of complying with rules of the road without displaying one, i am open to your explanation.

    Off you go.


    Apart from me questioning the legality of their partially displayed registration plates, and as to whether or not that is legal on the states road's, I don't believe I ever suggested if their eviction was legal or not.

    Another wall of nonsense. When did I say the building owners family were in the “industry”? The building owner has the right to enforce the court order.


    2nd part of the nonsense. Anyone “calling on your person” while you are illegally occupying someone else’s house would have to show you ID?? FFS.

    3rd paragraph. You read “somewhere” online? I’ll go with the Garda spokesperson on this one.

    And the final para of nonsense. As far as you are aware. Jesus wept. Maybe it fell off and they had informed the Gardaí of same, which the Gardaí took at face value.


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    #625
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 28,924 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    J_E wrote: »
    And what of this private group in the unregistered van, so?
    The van is/was registered, I've seen at least three pictures of the registration plate :confused:


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    #626
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    J_E wrote: »
    I want the Gardai to respond with appropriate force, be identifiable, and not be supporting mysterious private hired help who should not be assisted in such a manner.

    Sigh, they were identifiable.


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    #627
    golfball37
    Registered Users Posts: 4,576 ✭✭✭golfball37


    The Gardai should be arresting anyone driving around Dublin in a balaclava with blacked out plates. Are private out of state security operatives exempt from the law of this land?


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    #628
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Normally I would be against this sort of protest but we live in extraordinary times. For years politicians have been saying that they were going to stop the hoarding of vacant land and property. That has not happened. It's needs to. There should be a policy of use it or lose it. The state needs to build homes again. In this country we have gotten obsessed with investing in property rather than viewing it as a home. There needs to be proper laws protecting long term renters.

    Apart from the obvious issues for people who are homeless the property situation at the moment is impacting on the economy. Those who are paying high rent have a reduced or nonexistent disposable income. Foreign companies will avoid the country because they can't guarantee their employees can get a home.

    As for the gardai yesterday the optics were dreadful. They protected a bunch of anonymous heavies who were themselves breaking the law with a van that wasn't taxed or ncted and parked illegally. No wonder the lads had balaclavas on, you normally act like that when you're ashamed.


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    #629
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    J_E wrote: »
    I want the Gardai to respond with appropriate force, be identifiable, and not be supporting mysterious private hired help who should not be assisted in such a manner.

    This whole thing could have been handled in a very different way. This is going to cause war now because of the heavy-handed response and questionable tactics.

    There is no question of Gardai not handling the law. Why did they have to handle it in this way though?

    why do you need to identify yourself to illegal squatters you are lawfully removing ? they are the criminals here correct ?

    the numbers were visible on one of the guys wasnt it ? front of his jacket ? only one picture from one angle ? hardly surprised you couldnt id every garda who was there

    how were they heavy handed ?

    if they were not there they would have been called immediately upon the eviction starting assaults criminal damage public order offences trespassing


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    #630
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I never realised you were a mechanic. How else do you know that the van is clapped out?

    Why would you realise what I do in my professional career, as I have never discussed it in all my years of posting.

    Anyway, clapped out means well worn/ used in other words it's seen better days.
    At the rear of the van was the UK registration plate MX06 WGA. A search on the UK Government's vehicle checking website reveals that the diesel van, first registered in August 2006, is listed as untaxed and was due to be taxed by August 1, 2014.

    I may or may not be a mechanic, it's irrelevant, I seen the pictures of the van.

    20180912_224009.jpg

    I stand over my opinion.


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    #631
    flazio
    Registered Users Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    If the Gardaí went in with their faces uncovered, is there not a possibility that photos would have been taken, posted up on Facebook and their names and addresses posted online?
    After that there's no telling what might happen to their families.


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