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The Frederick St protest and reaction

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    #572
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,816 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    J_E wrote: »
    You're having circular arguments about rent and property prices.

    Can we remember that Gardai assisted private thugs that used brute force and peaceful protesters ended up in hospital?

    This was entirely avoidable and it's chilling to see a side of the police force that is willing to forego due process and lawfulness.

    A good number of people on the thread found it a very warming experience to observe.


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    #573
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    I find it hard to believe that a private fee paying education results in producing so many Marxist Leninists.
    Extremely easy to be a Marxist Leninist when growing up in privilege in the West.


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    #574
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Have you a costing for this?

    I'd have to do some maths to adjust those for inflation once I find out (which I'm currently attempting to, have been in contact with the OPW about this) but I've already given one costing for Dolphin House redevelopment which is happening right now, and that cost so far has been €25 million for 100 units of housing.

    That means that for the €44 million Dun Laoghaire County Council spent on a locally despised and unasked-for vanity project, they could have built roughly 176 new flats in FitzGerald Park / Mounttown, a huge, vacant, council-owned site where a group of badly designed tower blocks were demolished in 2008. Instead - you guessed it - they've sold half of it to the private market in order to pay for the redevelopment. More badly needed public land gone. Whoop-de-doo. :mad:


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    #575
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    J_E wrote: »
    You're having circular arguments about rent and property prices.

    Can we remember that Gardai assisted private thugs that used brute force and peaceful protesters ended up in hospital?

    This was entirely avoidable and it's chilling to see a side of the police force that is willing to forego due process and lawfulness.

    By all accounts the eviction went quietly and the scuffles happened outside the house, between the crusties and the Gardaí. Hence the arrests.


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    #576
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    I find it hard to believe that a private fee paying education results in producing so many Marxist Leninists.

    Were the governments of Ireland from 1930-1990 Marxist-Leninist as well? Was the government which built Mountjoy and Summerhill in the 1950s and 60s after compulsory purchase of the tenements a Marxist-Leninist government? How about the government of the 1930s which hired Herbert Simms to build social housing projects from Dublin 2 to Crumlin, and from Dublin 1 to Stoneybatter?

    Your hyperbole is idiotic and is totally undermining any argument you might be trying to make.


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    #577
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 28,992 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    J_E wrote: »
    You're having circular arguments about rent and property prices.

    Can we remember that Gardai assisted private thugs that used brute force and peaceful protesters ended up in hospital?

    This was entirely avoidable and it's chilling to see a side of the police force that is willing to forego due process and lawfulness.
    Eh, what? :confused:


    What about the court order to vacate the premises? There was no report of the "private thugs" using brute force. And the "peaceful protesters" got themselves arrested scuffling outside the premises.


    It was all avoidable, I'll grant you that.



    Nice revisionism, though :rolleyes:


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    #578
    rosser44
    Registered Users Posts: 571 ✭✭✭rosser44


    20Cent wrote: »
    Why is it so hard to believe that someone with a privileged upbringing could care about others less privileged?

    Because its much more likely that he's co-opting a vocal and populist group of anti everything protesters to further his own political career? Like he's done from the get go?

    Do you think he'd be there of there was no cameras or reporters, or a chance to get his name in the paper?


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    #579
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    J_E wrote: »
    You're having circular arguments about rent and property prices.

    Can we remember that Gardai assisted private thugs that used brute force and peaceful protesters ended up in hospital?

    This was entirely avoidable and it's chilling to see a side of the police force that is willing to forego due process and lawfulness.

    you can remind me but its a total fantasy to ask anyone to believe it

    people are well wise to the antics of this crowd from water protests and all the rest of it


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    #580
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I'd have to do some maths to adjust those for inflation once I find out (which I'm currently attempting to, have been in contact with the OPW about this) but I've already given one costing for Dolphin House redevelopment which is happening right now, and that cost so far has been €25 million for 100 units of housing.

    That means that for the €44 million Dun Laoghaire County Council spent on a locally despised and unasked-for vanity project, they could have built roughly 176 new flats in FitzGerald Park / Mounttown, a huge, vacant, council-owned site where a group of badly designed tower blocks were demolished in 2008. Instead - you guessed it - they've sold half of it to the private market in order to pay for the redevelopment. More badly needed public land gone. Whoop-de-doo. :mad:

    So how many houses do you want built with tax payers money?

    We’re getting somewhere here thanks for the response.


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    #581
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Were the governments of Ireland from 1930-1990 Marxist-Leninist as well? Was the government which built Mountjoy and Summerhill in the 1950s and 60s after compulsory purchase of the tenements a Marxist-Leninist government? How about the government of the 1930s which hired Herbert Simms to build social housing projects from Dublin 2 to Crumlin, and from Dublin 1 to Stoneybatter?

    Your hyperbole is idiotic and is totally undermining any argument you might be trying to make.

    how did the majority of these projects end up then


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    #582
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Deleted User wrote: »
    you can remind me but its a total fantasy to ask anyone to believe it

    people are well wise to the antics of this crowd from water protests and all the rest of it

    And guess what? In that instance, through a combination of both peaceful protest and civil disobedience, we won. Activism can make a difference.


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    #583
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    This evenings protest isn't about housing. It's in support of the 5 thugs arrested by Gardai after the legal eviction.


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    #584
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    And guess what? In that instance, through a combination of both peaceful protest and civil disobedience, we won. Activism can make a difference.

    Haha they won nothing.

    Water will still have to be paid for sooner or later, they just kicked the van down the road like every government has done the last 50 years with water.


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    #585
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    And guess what? In that instance, through a combination of both peaceful protest and civil disobedience, we won. Activism can make a difference.

    and hows the water infrastructure of the country

    ignorance, sheer ignorance

    a child thinks it has won when it gets sweets after a tantrum


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    #586
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Deleted User wrote: »
    how did the majority of these projects end up then

    The ones which failed failed due to bad planning, not design (except some of Simms' later ones when he was overworked and stressed out, these are the ones which have had damp issues and had to be redeveloped like Dolphin House - the earlier ones such as Oliver Bond are still standing and haven't had to undergo large scale redevelopment) - chiefly, the idiotic policy of creating ghettoes by housing only low income tenants and housing them all together in the same high density developments. Nobody is proposing that again. Some social housing in my envisaged mass-building scheme would be given to people earning average wages, and they'd be charged a reasonable rent. But nobody should be paying four figures per month for one bedroom apartment, regardless of where it happens to be. The basic part of life that it having a roof over one's head shouldn't be that much of a drain on one's income, end of story.


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    #587
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,816 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Were the governments of Ireland from 1930-1990 Marxist-Leninist as well? Was the government which built Mountjoy and Summerhill in the 1950s and 60s after compulsory purchase of the tenements a Marxist-Leninist government? How about the government of the 1930s which hired Herbert Simms to build social housing projects from Dublin 2 to Crumlin, and from Dublin 1 to Stoneybatter?

    Your hyperbole is idiotic and is totally undermining any argument you might be trying to make.

    It's only in modern times, broadly since we joined the EU, that the country has managed to support a growing population, currently 4.8 million. In 1960 it was 2.8 million. This has been done with a model of private home ownership for the most part. More recently private rental has become more common. Whatever those projects did, they did not support a growing population.


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    #588
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Of course not! And if they're selling, the council should be buying them, flattening them, and replacing them with higher density developments more appropriate for the city centre - again, as they did from the 1930s right up to and including the 1980s.

    EDIT: I genuinely wonder if some people realise just how common this was. Every single time you drive or walk past one of these buildings in Dublin, you're literally walking past a block of housing where that is exactly what the council did, at some point during the 20th century:

    7248138.jpg

    BZxIwTSIEAEoxuh.jpg

    Don't suppose you had the pleasure of living in one of these Simms developments during your lifetime? I can tell you first hand, most of them are complete ****holes, and completely inappropriate for modern living.


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    #589
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 28,992 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    And guess what? In that instance, through a combination of both peaceful protest and civil disobedience, we won. Activism can make a difference.
    Seriously? Won what, exactly?


    Ask everyone who had to ration water all summer long during our lovely heatwave. Asfar as I know the water restrictions are still in place in some areas.



    Our water system is still in a total heap, with no money to pay for it.


    I won't disagree that the IW setup (like most other state bodies) was a shambles, but jaysus.


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    #590
    dav3
    Registered Users Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    J_E wrote: »
    You're having circular arguments about rent and property prices.

    Can we remember that Gardai assisted private thugs that used brute force and peaceful protesters ended up in hospital?

    This was entirely avoidable and it's chilling to see a side of the police force that is willing to forego due process and lawfulness.

    It's certainly helped highlight the issues and as a result increased the number of people willing to protest. The riot squad and the hired goons handled the whole thing disastrously.

    I wouldn't worry about the ramblings by the youth wing of fine gael, nobody takes them seriously on here.


  • Options
    #591
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 28,992 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    Deleted User wrote: »
    and hows the water infrastructure of the country

    ignorance, sheer ignorance

    a child thinks it has won when it gets sweets after a tantrum
    This x 100.



    Could not have put it better.


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    #592
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,302 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    J_E wrote: »
    You're having circular arguments about rent and property prices.

    Can we remember that Gardai assisted private thugs that used brute force and peaceful protesters ended up in hospital?

    This was entirely avoidable and it's chilling to see a side of the police force that is willing to forego due process and lawfulness.

    What's peaceful about breaking and entering?

    What's lawful about breaking and entering?

    Stop chatting shoite


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    #593
    Trasna1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I'd have to do some maths to adjust those for inflation once I find out (which I'm currently attempting to, have been in contact with the OPW about this) but I've already given one costing for Dolphin House redevelopment which is happening right now, and that cost so far has been €25 million for 100 units of housing.

    That means that for the €44 million Dun Laoghaire County Council spent on a locally despised and unasked-for vanity project, they could have built roughly 176 new flats in FitzGerald Park / Mounttown, a huge, vacant, council-owned site where a group of badly designed tower blocks were demolished in 2008. Instead - you guessed it - they've sold half of it to the private market in order to pay for the redevelopment. More badly needed public land gone. Whoop-de-doo. :mad:
    Just so you know the cost of construction is much much more in real terms than it was back when the council was building those dens of social deprivation that you've in the picture above. Materials cost about 70% and labour 30%. (If you look at buildings from this era you'll see how clever the designers were in minimising materials) The reverse is now true since all site work is skilled to some extent and regulations in building are far more stringent. The overheads in relation to BCAR some estimate to add up to 10% to the build cost.
    Labour has just over doubled in cost in real terms while materials have tracked inflation.


    But that's not the primary reason why there is low house building - there are simply not enough construction workers available to do the work. Sure we could import labour, but the constraints on credit limit this (lesson from last time), so we are stuck with a construction industry that it's at capacity.

    I suppose one way to get more houses built would be if we could mobilise the 400k permanently unemployed, but that's wishful thinking... They have protests to go to...


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    #594
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    The ones which failed failed due to bad planning, not design (except some of Simms' later ones when he was overworked and stressed out, these are the ones which have had damp issues and had to be redeveloped like Dolphin House - the earlier ones such as Oliver Bond are still standing and haven't had to undergo large scale redevelopment) - chiefly, the idiotic policy of creating ghettoes by housing only low income tenants and housing them all together in the same high density developments. Nobody is proposing that again. Some social housing in my envisaged mass-building scheme would be given to people earning average wages, and they'd be charged a reasonable rent. But nobody should be paying four figures per month for one bedroom apartment, regardless of where it happens to be. The basic part of life that it having a roof over one's head shouldn't be that much of a drain on one's income, end of story.

    i agree with a lot of your thrust

    i think its madness to link these cogent and logical arguments to the activities launching this thread

    madness.


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    #595
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,630 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yep, pick up their kids from a €1500/2000 a month creche whatever the cost of it is, and then commute home to the arse end of Westmeath or wherever and probably muttering every mile of the way home about their miserable lifestyle. We did this during Celtic Tiger 1 and moaned mightily about it. Celtic Tiger 2 The Sequel finds us doing the exact same thing again and seemingly willing to do nothing about it.

    F**k it, you know what, the Pavlovian worshippers of the system deserve their long miserable commutes if they continue to buy into a concept that treats them so badly in the long run.


    As said earlier - the mask slips every now and again.

    The contempt for the working people of Ireland, the ones who get of their holes and try and provide for themselves and their families, is sickening.


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    #596
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    So how many houses do you want built with tax payers money?

    We’re getting somewhere here thanks for the response.

    As many as it takes to cause widespread deflation in the rental market and ensure that nobody has to obliterate their disposable income just to have a roof over their head. I don't have figures for how much social housing DCC had to build during the 1930s in order to ease the crisis, but I can do some rough estimates given that I've studied a lot of those blocks fairly substantially and can give a rough estimate as to how many units fit in each estate and how many of these estates there are across the city. It's made more complicated by the fact that some of them have been demolished though. I'll try and source these figures and do some calculations for you so we can at least have the benchmark of how many they had to build in the first half of the 20th century.

    I know that the number stretches into the thousands at the very least (even just three - Dolphin House, O'Devaney Gardens and Teresa's Gardens - break the 1,000 figure easily when put together) but just to give you an idea, one of those red-bricked blocks with the circular stairwell towers adjacent holds exactly 48 flats over five storeys - technically eight flats per storey, but the upper two rows are in fact duplexes. Most of those developments in the city are built in groups of 2-5 blocks - Stephen's Green / Cuffe Street has two, Bishop Street has three, Chamber Street used to have three, Charlemont Street used to have 5 - so straight away in a relatively small stretch of the South Inner City, 13 such blocks with 48 flats in each, for a grand total of 585 units. And that's scraping the tip of the iceberg to be honest - the Mercer Street development beside the Cuffe Street one is absolutely vast, it's just harder to count it because several of its blocks are internal ones with buildings surrounding them, so you don't just pass them by when walking through town. I'll have a look on Google Street View later.

    So this could take me a while, but I'll attempt to get figures for you on what we did before, right up until the end of the 1980s when the God-awful era of "the free market matters more than human life and happiness" began.


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    #597
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    dav3 wrote: »

    I wouldn't worry about the ramblings by the youth wing of fine gael, nobody takes them seriously on here.

    this is about the standard quality of your stuff across any issue that requires paying for, as far as i can tell

    fantasy money, nobody pays, really baseless stuff.


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    #598
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    lawred2 wrote: »
    What's peaceful about breaking and entering?

    What's lawful about breaking and entering?

    Stop chatting shoite

    It's the duty of Gardai to follow the law... why were they helping this group?

    Many protests and calls for change have had to sometimes challenge laws. Laws don't define the morality of a nation.


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    #599
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,302 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    blackwhite wrote: »
    As said earlier - the mask slips every now and again.

    The contempt for the working people of Ireland, the ones who get of their holes and try and provide for themselves and their families, is sickening.

    Contempt for the same people whose taxes will pay to house all these incapables


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    #600
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,302 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    J_E wrote: »
    It's the duty of Gardai to follow the law... why were they helping this group?

    Many protests and calls for change have had to sometimes challenge laws. Laws don't define the morality of a nation.

    Keepers of the peace. Nothing peaceful about breaking and entering.


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    #601
    Thatnastyboy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭Thatnastyboy


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    No one's suggesting extending it bank accounts, just to housing itself.

    Housing is unequal by nature though.

    For instance - I have to commute from the sticks because I can't afford Dublin rent. It's my tough shít and I can accept that. If i was on 150k i could afford to live in gc dock or somewhere, but i'm not - so i can't!

    I don't deny theres a housing problem here, but siezing peoples assets & demanding free accommodation in the most expensive part of the country is not the way to solve it.


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