EU Vote down Far Right in Hungary

listermint · 12-09-2018 1:05pm #1

So,

Can anyone explain the vote that happened in the EU parliament today in Plain. I dont understand it nor its significance. Short that there was alot of celebration amongst the Greens.

Qrt · 12-09-2018 1:05pm

listermint wrote: »

So,

Can anyone explain the vote that happened in the EU parliament today in Plain. I dont understand it nor its significance. Short that there was alot of celebration amongst the Greens.

Hungary seems to have broken many many rules of the EU and thus are probably facing consequences.

An Ciarraioch · 12-09-2018 1:19pm

Among other things, they have closed down various opposition media outlets, and a university funded by George Soros in Budapest.

Elmer Blooker · 12-09-2018 1:30pm

Qrt wrote: »

Hungary seems to have broken many many rules of the EU and thus are probably facing consequences.

So has Poland but the EU chooses to ignore this and look the other way.
Why is this? The explanation is quite simple, Hungary PM Orban is getting a bit too friendly with Putin while Poland on the other hand is pro-US and fanatically anti Russia. No slap on the wrist for poster boys Poland.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/10/24/eroding-checks-and-balances/rule-law-and-human-rights-under-attack-poland

listermint · 12-09-2018 1:32pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

So has Poland but the EU chooses to ignore this and look the other way.
Why is this? The explanation is quite simple, Hungary PM Orban is getting a bit too friendly with Putin while Poland on the other hand is pro-US and fanatically anti Russia. No slap on the wrist for poster boys Poland.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/10/24/eroding-checks-and-balances/rule-law-and-human-rights-under-attack-poland

Yes, And the US EU Relationship is tight as ever these days...

Correct ?

VinLieger · 12-09-2018 1:34pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

So has Poland but the EU chooses to ignore this and look the other way.
Why is this? The explanation is quite simple, Hungary PM Orban is getting a bit too friendly with Putin while Poland on the other hand is pro-US and fanatically anti Russia. No slap on the wrist for poster boys Poland.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/10/24/eroding-checks-and-balances/rule-law-and-human-rights-under-attack-poland

Well that's a lie the Poland issue simply has yet to make it to the parliament for discussion and a vote

jm08 · 12-09-2018 1:39pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

So has Poland but the EU chooses to ignore this and look the other way.
Why is this? The explanation is quite simple, Hungary PM Orban is getting a bit too friendly with Putin while Poland on the other hand is pro-US and fanatically anti Russia. No slap on the wrist for poster boys Poland.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/10/24/eroding-checks-and-balances/rule-law-and-human-rights-under-attack-poland

Poland is bound to block the santions against Hungary (a unaminous vote is also required by the European Council).

What will be interesting to see is what May will do.

jm08 · 12-09-2018 1:41pm

VinLieger wrote: »

Well that's a lie the Poland issue simply has yet to make it to the parliament for discussion and a vote

And the Greens will be gunning for them over the tree felling in world heritage site forests.

ancapailldorcha · 12-09-2018 1:47pm

Article 7 allows the EU to sanction member states which breach its core principles. Orban has been attacking the media and Universities on his road to build a kleptocracy in Hungary so its good to see the EU actually do something about it. If Hungarians feel that their sovereignty is being abused, they can always vote to leave and the EU will be better off.

Hurrache · 12-09-2018 1:47pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

So has Poland but the EU chooses to ignore this and look the other way.

VinLieger wrote: »

Well that's a lie the Poland issue simply has yet to make it to the parliament for discussion and a vote

The EU is also has initiated steps to start legal proceedings against Poland because of how they're trying to push changes into their court system by pushing judges out.

Just people people aren't aware of these things, doesn't mean the EU isn't doing anything and there's some conspiracy going on.

Elmer Blooker · 12-09-2018 7:33pm

listermint wrote: »

Yes, And the US EU Relationship is tight as ever these days...

Correct ?

Not really. A "relationship" isn't and shouldn't be about making threats.
French energy giant Total decided it would be wise to put America's interests ahead of their own and pulled out of Iran despite some tough talking from the Finance Minister initially.

Bruno Le Maire, the French finance minister, said last week: “We have to work among ourselves in Europe to defend our European economic sovereignty.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/13/us-sanctions-european-countries-iran-deal-donald-trump

listermint · 12-09-2018 9:36pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Not really. A "relationship" isn't and shouldn't be about making threats.
French energy giant Total decided it would be wise to put America's interests ahead of their own and pulled out of Iran despite some tough talking from the Finance Minister initially.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/13/us-sanctions-european-countries-iran-deal-donald-trump

???

French energy maker decided to leave due to financial reasons. Its nothing to do with political affiliations.

Pure money

Franz Von Peppercorn · 12-09-2018 11:52pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Article 7 allows the EU to sanction member states which breach its core principles. Orban has been attacking the media and Universities on his road to build a kleptocracy in Hungary so its good to see the EU actually do something about it. If Hungarians feel that their sovereignty is being abused, they can always vote to leave and the EU will be better off.

His attack on certain subjects in the universities is no different from the opposite over here - universities burying science papers for instance.

And the media? A corporate sh1t show. The internet is worth protecting but that’s the very thing the EU isn’t protecting.

ancapailldorcha · 13-09-2018 7:46am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

His attack on certain subjects in the universities is no different from the opposite over here - universities burying science papers for instance.

What papers are being buried?

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

And the media? A corporate sh1t show. The internet is worth protecting but that’s the very thing the EU isn’t protecting.

Based on what, exactly? Orban's opinion? One person shouldn't be allowed to define what is acceptable.

RandomName2 · 13-09-2018 11:37am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Based on what, exactly? Orban's opinion? One person shouldn't be allowed to define what is acceptable.

One person elected by the people. He is the representative of Hungary, but we know that Hungary doesn't really matter in the EU, and Orban is in a weak position in Brussels, so the disgraced Junker can literally slap him in the face if he likes.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If Hungarians feel that their sovereignty is being abused, they can always vote to leave and the EU will be better off.

Like a sinking ship, right? Greece and Italy are two other countries genuinely teetering on potentially leaving, while Poland, Romania, and the Czech Republic are also getting a bit tired of the Merkel-Macron government. There's a point at which the hubris of saying that the smaller countries don't matter might come back to bite the bureaucrats (which includes Ireland if you remember how we were treated in 2008). Italy isn't a smaller country though, and the imminent loss of the UK has been pretty sorely felt..

While the independence of the media is an important thing, it is true, I can't help but feel that the bureaucrats would have looked the other way if it hadn't been for Hungary observing the Dublin convention.

oscarBravo · 13-09-2018 12:19pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

One person elected by the people. He is the representative of Hungary...

So what? Are you arguing that the leader of an EU country can choose to ignore the EU's rules on the basis of having been elected?

If that's what you're arguing, are you aware of what a stupid argument it is?

...but we know that Hungary doesn't really matter in the EU...

No, we don't know that. That's the sort of thing that's "known" by people who like to invent their own snide little narratives that have no basis in trivia like "rules".

...disgraced Junker...

It's a pity you didn't randomly capitalise a few words in your post. A career writing for the Express could have beckoned.

ancapailldorcha · 13-09-2018 1:39pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

One person elected by the people. He is the representative of Hungary, but we know that Hungary doesn't really matter in the EU, and Orban is in a weak position in Brussels, so the disgraced Junker can literally slap him in the face if he likes.

Couldn't help yourself to an ad hominem, could you. How do you kow Hungary doesn't matter in the EU? Elaborate bplease.

RandomName2 wrote: »

Like a sinking ship, right? Greece and Italy are two other countries genuinely teetering on potentially leaving, while Poland, Romania, and the Czech Republic are also getting a bit tired of the Merkel-Macron government. There's a point at which the hubris of saying that the smaller countries don't matter might come back to bite the bureaucrats (which includes Ireland if you remember how we were treated in 2008). Italy isn't a smaller country though, and the imminent loss of the UK has been pretty sorely felt..

There's a mix of nonsense and conjecture here. Brexit is going to prove to be a better piece of propaganda than the EU could ever make themselves. Greece and Italy have been on the brink of leaving for years and yet are still in somehow. Merkel-Macron government? Proof please.

Where has the loss of the UK "been pretty sorely felt?"

RandomName2 wrote: »

While the independence of the media is an important thing, it is true, I can't help but feel that the bureaucrats would have looked the other way if it hadn't been for Hungary observing the Dublin convention.

A deflection. A free media is crucial to a functioning state. If Hungarians wish to live in a kleptocracy with no free speech then that's their call. The EU has rules. Hungary can leave if it doesn't like them.

Hurrache · 13-09-2018 1:47pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

are also getting a bit tired of the Merkel-Macron government.

Apart from everything else wrong with your post, Macron has only been French president since last year. As good as he may or may not be, I don't think he's that effective in changing the EU from within to suit his own agenda in such a short period of time.

RandomName2 · 13-09-2018 1:56pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

So what? Are you arguing that the leader of an EU country can choose to ignore the EU's rules on the basis of having been elected?

I'm saying that you can't separate the people from the person if an absolute majority support that person.

oscarBravo wrote: »

INo, we don't know that. That's the sort of thing that's "known" by people who like to invent their own snide little narratives that have no basis in trivia like "rules".

And here was I thinking that politics was a numbers game except where unanimity is demanded. Oh, thread title.

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's a pity you didn't randomly capitalise a few words in your post. A career writing for the Express could have beckoned.

The fact that it's true sticks in the craw a bit, does it?

Hurrache wrote: »

Macron has only been French president since last year. As good as he may or may not be, I don't think he's that effective in changing the EU from within to suit his own agenda in such a short period of time.

My point was more that the power within the organisation of the EU lies with a relatively few individuals. Of particular importance is the French-German dynamic, less-so who is actually president or chancellor.

Hurrache · 13-09-2018 2:22pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

The fact that it's true sticks in the craw a bit, does it?

So tell us, why is he disgraced?

RandomName2 · 13-09-2018 2:31pm

Hurrache wrote: »

So tell us, why is he disgraced?

Something about spying and dirty tricks, and stepping down as leader in order not to damage his party in the next election despite not taking responsibility - but I mean it worked out in the end for him as he's got friends in high places, and being elected president of the EU commission is not a process open to a public vote. The pro-EU people on the thread will be apologists, I'm sure, as they would feel that having him in his current position is getting them what they want. They'd also probably say that my bringing it up is mostly because I disagree with what he brings to the EU table rather than my having a particular interest in anything to do with internal Luxembourgian politics; but that would be a little bit hypocritical on their part, I think, as I believe the exact same thing is true of them in relation to Orban.

An Ciarraioch · 13-09-2018 2:48pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

oscarBravo wrote: »

So what? Are you arguing that the leader of an EU country can choose to ignore the EU's rules on the basis of having been elected?

I'm saying that you can't separate the people from the person if an absolute majority support that person.

oscarBravo wrote: »

INo, we don't know that. That's the sort of thing that's "known" by people who like to invent their own snide little narratives that have no basis in trivia like "rules".

And here was I thinking that politics was a numbers game except where unanimity is demanded. Oh, thread title.

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's a pity you didn't randomly capitalise a few words in your post. A career writing for the Express could have beckoned.

The fact that it's true sticks in the craw a bit, does it?

Hurrache wrote: »

Macron has only been French president since last year. As good as he may or may not be, I don't think he's that effective in changing the EU from within to suit his own agenda in such a short period of time.

My point was more that the power within the organisation of the EU lies with a relatively few individuals. Of particular importance is the French-German dynamic, less-so who is actually president or chancellor.

By that reckoning, the people of Russia and Turkey are inseparable from the actions of Putin and Erdogan, which would hardly reflect well on either nationality. It is entirely reasonable to suggest that the Hungarian government closed media outlets before joining the EU, then accession talks would never have been completed, so what would have been unacceptable then, remains so now.

Hurrache · 13-09-2018 2:49pm

"Something about.." What exactly?

RandomName2 · 13-09-2018 3:09pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

By that reckoning, the people of Russia are inseparable from the actions of Putin

Yeah because the man on the street in Russia was totally unaffected by the sanctions 'on Putin'. :rolleyes: Besides which, ancapailldorcha actually spelled it out in black and white, basically that Hungary can gtfo and we'd be better for it.

Hurrache wrote: »

"Something about.." What exactly?

Let yourself google that for you. I'm guessing you're not going to care, either way.

Hurrache · 13-09-2018 3:15pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Let yourself google that for you. I'm guessing you're not going to care, either way.

That's not how it works. You made the claims, you were asked what claims, and you're runinng away from those claims now so all I can assume is it's hearsay or agenda driven.

RandomName2 · 13-09-2018 3:38pm

Hurrache wrote: »

That's not how it works. You made the claims, you were asked what claims, and you're runinng away from those claims now so all I can assume is it's hearsay or agenda driven.

It seems that posts that include lmgtfy links are automatically deleted.

In all seriousness, google 'jean claude juncker spying' and pick anything on the first page of results if you want to, but I'm telling you now that you're probably not going to care if you already feel that he's batting for you.

prawnsambo · 14-09-2018 12:09am

RandomName2 wrote: »

Something about spying and dirty tricks, and stepping down as leader in order not to damage his party in the next election despite not taking responsibility - but I mean it worked out in the end for him as he's got friends in high places, and being elected president of the EU commission is not a process open to a public vote. The pro-EU people on the thread will be apologists, I'm sure, as they would feel that having him in his current position is getting them what they want. They'd also probably say that my bringing it up is mostly because I disagree with what he brings to the EU table rather than my having a particular interest in anything to do with internal Luxembourgian politics; but that would be a little bit hypocritical on their part, I think, as I believe the exact same thing is true of them in relation to Orban.

Or you could be talking rubbish. Juncker's only implication in the spying scandal was that he was bugged himself. He resigned because he didn't know it was going on. And had been assured as such at the time he was being bugged.

Renegade Mechanic · 14-09-2018 8:30am

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

So has Poland but the EU chooses to ignore this and look the other way.
Why is this? The explanation is quite simple, Hungary PM Orban is getting a bit too friendly with Putin while Poland on the other hand is pro-US and fanatically anti Russia. No slap on the wrist for poster boys Poland.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/10/24/eroding-checks-and-balances/rule-law-and-human-rights-under-attack-poland

Poland will be getting a "boot on the neck" at some stage. Their relationship with the U.S is taking a beating too, because their judiciary crisis affects the U.S.

To understand this, look back a bit.
[URL="https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/447]https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/447[/URL].

"This bill directs the Department of State, with respect to covered countries, to annually include within either the relevant Annual Country Report on Human Rights, the International Religious Freedom Report, or other appropriate report an assessment of the nature and extent of national laws or enforceable policies regarding the identification, return, or restitution of wrongfully seized or transferred Holocaust era assets and compliance with the goals of the Terezin Declaration on Holocaust Era Assets and Related Issues".

The covered countries of course including Poland.
With U.S backing the groups efforts would have sailed through the Polish courts, being as rightfully stated U.S friendly as they were, and billions upon billions in money and assets would be seized.
The judiciary crisis that followed has put the brakes on that train for now but it flies in the face of U.S wishes. Personally, I find it difficult to disagree with the Polish on this one.

It must be one hell of a slap in the face to see people referring to "Polish" death camps lately, like the Polish had a choice in the matter. Like Poland is even in the position to afford it. Like millions of Polnische Untermenschen, weren't also killed following Himmler's decree that "All Poles will disappear from the world…. It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles”, in their quest for "lebensraum".
So fear not. They'll be reigned in, too.

ancapailldorcha · 18-09-2018 10:39am

Ditch the petty name calling and link dumping please. Post deleted.

recedite · 18-09-2018 10:41am

Every country has its "red line" issues. Hungarians refused to become a migrant transit camp for Merkels migrants. Now they are being punished.
Juncker said they are obliged to accept a majority EU vote which forces them to accept mandatory migrant quotas. Technically. The EU rule book says he is right. But in realpolitik, he is wrong. Hungary refused.

Recently, Juncker had some more wine and decided to have a go at Ireland.

European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker launched another assault on Irish powers to veto tax matters at European level.
The European Union should scrap some national vetos on tax, he said at his annual State of the Union address to the European Parliament in Strasbourg.

Yes, he will be coming for us next.

People on this thread who think Hungary is "an outlier" and "we're better off without them" are sadly misguided. They support Junckers authoritarian stance, while asserting that they are against "the rise of authoritarianism".
They decry "populism" when it is in fact democracy in action.
they are the stay-at-home equivalent of antifa militants who dress in black balaclavas and go out looking for "fascists" to beat over the head with clubs.
Austria and Hungary were always at the geographical and cultural heart of Europe. Vienna had concerts with Beethoven, and Budapest had heated swimming pools and saunas centuries ago, when most Irish people still lived in mud cabins.

The future of Europe will see two competing spheres of influence. In the west France Belgium and Spain. In the east;Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Austria, Hungary, Italy.

In the middle, an increasing fractious and divided Germany. Fondly remembering those heady days before 2015 when Germany reached its post-war zenith - a strong, united and confident country leading a confident EU. But that was before Merkels EU open borders policy led to hostility with eastern countries and encouraged the Brexiteers to leave.

And way out in the Atlantic, beyond non-EU European countries like Norway and UK, lies Ireland. Bravely following Juncker down the coalmine, even as more and more canaries fall off their perch.

recedite · 18-09-2018 10:43am

As my links to "drunk juncker" youtube videos have been deleted by the mod, people should google it themselves.

ancapailldorcha · 18-09-2018 10:53am

recedite wrote: »

Recently, Juncker had some more wine and decided to have a go at Ireland.
Yes, he will be coming for us next.

That seems to be little more than scaremongering. With Brexit and his impending exit, Juncker has enough on his plate as it is.

recedite wrote: »

People on this thread who think Hungary is "an outlier" and "we're better off without them" are sadly misguided. They support Junckers authoritarian stance, while asserting that they are against "the rise of authoritarianism".
They decry "populism" when it is in fact democracy in action.
they are the stay-at-home equivalent of antifa militants who dress in black balaclavas and go out looking for "fascists" to beat over the head with clubs.
Austria and Hungary were always at the geographical and cultural heart of Europe. Vienna had concerts with Beethoven, and Budapest had heated swimming pools and saunas centuries ago, when most Irish people still lived in mud cabins.

People voted for Orban so he can thus claim legitimacy in what he is doing. However, the EU has rules. If Hungary doesn't like them, it can leave. Fortunately, this isn't "centuries ago" so I don't know what the point is there.

recedite wrote: »

And way out in the Atlantic, beyond non-EU European countries like Norway and UK, lies Ireland. Bravely following Juncker down the coalmine, even as more and more canaries fall off their perch.

Which canaries would these be? Brexit which came about due to an unstable Tory party and a weak opposition? Far right parties who aren't in power outside the Visegrad group?

oscarBravo · 18-09-2018 11:09am

recedite wrote: »

The EU rule book says he is right. But in realpolitik, he is wrong.

Yeah, rules are for pussies who don't fetishise authoritarian strongmen.

Chips Lovell · 18-09-2018 11:25am

Hungary is not being "punished" in relation to its stance on migrants, it's for breaking EU rules.

The migrant angle is Orban's spin on the issue (mainly for his domestic audience), but the truth is the dispute with the EU dates from long before the the migrant crisis blew up in 2015.

For example, by 2013 pressure was already mounting on Hungary over this matter:

The EU is stepping up the pressure on its most controversial member. Last month the European Parliament released a draft report concluding that the most recent amendment to the Hungarian constitution, which parliament passed in March, violates fundamental EU values. Others echo these concerns. On May 16th Human Rights Watch (HRW), an international watchdog, said that the Orban government’s changes weaken legal checks on the government and undermine the protection of human rights. HRW was especially critical of how the government has clipped the wings of the constitutional court, which lost its prerogative to review the substance of constitutional changes. “There is no clearer example of the Hungarian government’s contempt for the rule of law,” according to HRW.

Finally, on the issue of Juncker and Orban both being authoritarian, there's a difference between expressing an opinion (as Juncker did) and acting on an opinion in violation to EU rules (as Orban did). In short, Juncker made a speech, Orban changed laws. Big difference.

recedite · 18-09-2018 11:38am

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Finally, on the issue of Juncker and Orban both being authoritarian, there's a difference between expressing an opinion (as Juncker did) and acting on an opinion in violation to EU rules (as Orban did). In short, Juncker made a speech, Orban changed laws. Big difference.

Orban was elected by his people. He is a legislator. His job is to change laws.
Who elected Junckers?

ancapailldorcha · 18-09-2018 11:39am

recedite wrote: »

Orban was elected by his people. He is a legislator. His job is to change laws.
Who elected Junckers?

MEPs.

recedite · 18-09-2018 11:42am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Far right parties who aren't in power outside the Visegrad group?

Your definition of "far right" may well be the same as my definition of "nationalist".
Check out this video of Salvini on a recent walkabout.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1036707247446020096

Now, I know the mods here don't like Salvini, and will be itching to delete this link. But before you do that, I ask you this simple question.
Can you imagine any Irish politician walking through any Irish town and getting a reception like this? I can't.
Pretending its not happening will not make it go away.

recedite · 18-09-2018 11:47am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

MEPs.

So there is some sort of cold, indirect democracy going on there. That's what you're saying. I seem to remember there were 3 or 4 MEPs being elected for Ireland last time round, but I can't remember who they were, or why they were on the ballot paper.

Just a few degrees of separation between the people and Junckers, but enough to make him totally unaccountable.

Chips Lovell · 18-09-2018 11:47am

recedite wrote: »

Orban was elected by his people. He is a legislator. His job is to change laws.

Every EU government is elected by its people. Being elected doesn't give you right to ignore EU rules. If it did, there'd be not point to the EU.

recedite wrote: »

Who elected Junckers?

We did. The election of the Commission president is now tied to the European Parliament elections. The candidate of the largest party gets the job.

ancapailldorcha · 18-09-2018 11:48am

recedite wrote: »

So there is some sort of cold, indirect democracy going on there. That's what you're saying. I seem to remember there were 3 or 4 MEPs being elected for Ireland last time round, but I can't remember who they were, or why they were on the ballot paper.

Just a few degrees of separation between the people and Junckers, but enough to make him totally unaccountable.

Surely that's your fault for not researching who was on your ballot paper? Democracy works by electing people to act on the electorate's behalf. If you have a problem with it, why not contact your local MEP?

recedite · 18-09-2018 12:13pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Democracy works by electing people to act on the electorate's behalf.

So what do you call it when people are chosen by people who were elected by people who were elected by the people?

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If you have a problem with it, why not contact your local MEP?

I've no idea who they are, or what country the are in. They probably have multiple addresses for best tax and expense account advantage.
In fairness, whoever they are, I'm not interested in them, just as they aren't interested in me. Once they get onto the pigs back, they disappear.

Sassygirl1999 · 18-09-2018 12:23pm

Budapest is pivoting toward Moscow now that much is clear
The EU is in a muddle with refugees and Brexit , Hungary need to look after número uno

rossie1977 · 18-09-2018 12:29pm

recedite wrote: »

Orban was elected by his people. He is a legislator. His job is to change laws.
Who elected Junckers?

He changed the constitution of Hungary to suit himself. Orban controls pretty much everything in Hungary right now from the courts to all the mass media. He controls prosecution office, tax office, state auditors and national Bank of Hungary. Opposition to him has pretty much been eliminated.

And re: support guys like Salvini get, no probably not. Probably never see a politician in Ireland enjoy the fervent support Saddam Hussein or Muammar Gaddafi enjoyed either but that's besides the point.

Politicans are elected to represent the people, they aren't looked at as special here in Ireland or at least shouldn't be. Current MEP and former TD went to school with me and still lives in small town in Roscommon he grew up in.

FreudianSlippers · 18-09-2018 12:31pm

recedite wrote: »

So what do you call it when people are chosen by people who were elected by people who were elected by the people?

Democracy. It's also the same way we choose a Taoiseach.

I've no idea who they are,

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ireland/en/your-meps

or what country the are in.

Uh... Ireland. They're Irish MEPs.

They probably have multiple addresses for best tax and expense account advantage.

Quite the allegation.

In fairness, whoever they are, I'm not interested in them, just as they aren't interested in me. Once they get onto the pigs back, they disappear.

Well that's really the rub of it isn't it? You complain about lack of democracy in the EU, but at the end of the day you just can't really be bothered to participate in it.

ancapailldorcha · 18-09-2018 12:32pm

recedite wrote: »

So what do you call it when people are chosen by people who were elected by people who were elected by the people?

Democracy. Elected representatives vote on things all the time.

recedite wrote: »

I've no idea who they are, or what country the are in. They probably have multiple addresses for best tax and expense account advantage.
In fairness, whoever they are, I'm not interested in them, just as they aren't interested in me. Once they get onto the pigs back, they disappear.

If you're not interested then that's your problem. Democracies give people the governments they deserve. If they don't bother researching their vote before they cast it then they get an appropriate government.

recedite · 18-09-2018 3:15pm

rossie1977 wrote: »

And re: support guys like Salvini get, no probably not. Probably never see a politician in Ireland enjoy the fervent support Saddam Hussein or Muammar Gaddafi enjoyed either but that's besides the point.

Ironic that both of your examples were politicians popular among their own people, who were deposed and assassinated by outside globalists. Both countries now in ruins, having been quite prosperous only a few years ago.

If we contrast the passion and the power on display at one of Salvini's walkabouts, with the general disinterest and cynicism of a EP election in Ireland, I think it shows that one is real democracy in action and the other is a pale imitation.

ancapailldorcha · 18-09-2018 3:54pm

recedite wrote: »

If we contrast the passion and the power on display at one of Salvini's walkabouts, with the general disinterest and cynicism of a EP election in Ireland, I think it shows that one is real democracy in action and the other is a pale imitation.

Really? A showing of admirers is more democratic than actual votes being cast by the electorate. How exactly do you define democracy?

oscarBravo · 18-09-2018 4:14pm

recedite wrote: »

If we contrast the passion and the power on display at one of Salvini's walkabouts, with the general disinterest and cynicism of a EP election in Ireland, I think it shows that one is real democracy in action and the other is a pale imitation.

You seem to have a bizarre view on how the world should work. Apparently being able to appeal to a crowd gives an elected leader the right to unilaterally ignore the terms of a treaty to which his country has freely signed up, because "democracy".

You also appear to have the strange idea that democracy is a function of cheering crowds, not of boring old voting.

recedite · 18-09-2018 4:18pm

Salvini has the votes to match his undoubted popularity.

Meanwhile in Hungary, it seems that Brussels is in technical breach of the EU rules this time. Two can play at this game.

The European Union’s basic treaty clearly states that a two-thirds majority is required for a procedure to be valid, he noted, insisting that this was not achieved and therefore the procedure should not go ahead.
Guly said it was the first time the EP had held a vote on Article 7. He said house rules dictated that abstentions could be set aside in ordinary procedures but this rule did not apply in the case of special procedures.

Chips Lovell · 18-09-2018 4:19pm

Interestingly enough, turnout in the last Italian general election was 73 percent, the lowest since the restoration of democracy following World War Two. I don't know what that says about the passion of Italian voters.

Having said that, it still beat turnout at our last general election (65 percent) and Hungary's (70 percent)

recedite · 18-09-2018 4:27pm

You won't get more than about 75% turnout in a democracy unless something terrible is happening. Or you make voting a legal requirement, as it was in Italy up until the mid 90's. I'm not a fan of that idea, because people will vote randomly even when they don't understand the issues. Leave it to those who want to vote.

EU Vote down Far Right in Hungary

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