Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

EU Vote down Far Right in Hungary

Options
2

Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,730 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    recedite wrote: »
    Recently, Juncker had some more wine and decided to have a go at Ireland.
    Yes, he will be coming for us next.

    That seems to be little more than scaremongering. With Brexit and his impending exit, Juncker has enough on his plate as it is.
    recedite wrote: »
    People on this thread who think Hungary is "an outlier" and "we're better off without them" are sadly misguided. They support Junckers authoritarian stance, while asserting that they are against "the rise of authoritarianism".
    They decry "populism" when it is in fact democracy in action.
    they are the stay-at-home equivalent of antifa militants who dress in black balaclavas and go out looking for "fascists" to beat over the head with clubs.
    Austria and Hungary were always at the geographical and cultural heart of Europe. Vienna had concerts with Beethoven, and Budapest had heated swimming pools and saunas centuries ago, when most Irish people still lived in mud cabins.

    People voted for Orban so he can thus claim legitimacy in what he is doing. However, the EU has rules. If Hungary doesn't like them, it can leave. Fortunately, this isn't "centuries ago" so I don't know what the point is there.
    recedite wrote: »
    And way out in the Atlantic, beyond non-EU European countries like Norway and UK, lies Ireland. Bravely following Juncker down the coalmine, even as more and more canaries fall off their perch.

    Which canaries would these be? Brexit which came about due to an unstable Tory party and a weak opposition? Far right parties who aren't in power outside the Visegrad group?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    The EU rule book says he is right. But in realpolitik, he is wrong.
    Yeah, rules are for pussies who don't fetishise authoritarian strongmen.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Hungary is not being "punished" in relation to its stance on migrants, it's for breaking EU rules.

    The migrant angle is Orban's spin on the issue (mainly for his domestic audience), but the truth is the dispute with the EU dates from long before the the migrant crisis blew up in 2015.

    For example, by 2013 pressure was already mounting on Hungary over this matter:
    The EU is stepping up the pressure on its most controversial member. Last month the European Parliament released a draft report concluding that the most recent amendment to the Hungarian constitution, which parliament passed in March, violates fundamental EU values. Others echo these concerns. On May 16th Human Rights Watch (HRW), an international watchdog, said that the Orban government’s changes weaken legal checks on the government and undermine the protection of human rights. HRW was especially critical of how the government has clipped the wings of the constitutional court, which lost its prerogative to review the substance of constitutional changes. “There is no clearer example of the Hungarian government’s contempt for the rule of law,” according to HRW.

    Finally, on the issue of Juncker and Orban both being authoritarian, there's a difference between expressing an opinion (as Juncker did) and acting on an opinion in violation to EU rules (as Orban did). In short, Juncker made a speech, Orban changed laws. Big difference.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Finally, on the issue of Juncker and Orban both being authoritarian, there's a difference between expressing an opinion (as Juncker did) and acting on an opinion in violation to EU rules (as Orban did). In short, Juncker made a speech, Orban changed laws. Big difference.
    Orban was elected by his people. He is a legislator. His job is to change laws.
    Who elected Junckers?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,730 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    recedite wrote: »
    Orban was elected by his people. He is a legislator. His job is to change laws.
    Who elected Junckers?

    MEPs.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Far right parties who aren't in power outside the Visegrad group?
    Your definition of "far right" may well be the same as my definition of "nationalist".
    Check out this video of Salvini on a recent walkabout.
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1036707247446020096

    Now, I know the mods here don't like Salvini, and will be itching to delete this link. But before you do that, I ask you this simple question.
    Can you imagine any Irish politician walking through any Irish town and getting a reception like this? I can't.
    Pretending its not happening will not make it go away.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    MEPs.
    So there is some sort of cold, indirect democracy going on there. That's what you're saying. I seem to remember there were 3 or 4 MEPs being elected for Ireland last time round, but I can't remember who they were, or why they were on the ballot paper.


    Just a few degrees of separation between the people and Junckers, but enough to make him totally unaccountable.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    recedite wrote: »
    Orban was elected by his people. He is a legislator. His job is to change laws.

    Every EU government is elected by its people. Being elected doesn't give you right to ignore EU rules. If it did, there'd be not point to the EU.
    recedite wrote: »
    Who elected Junckers?

    We did. The election of the Commission president is now tied to the European Parliament elections. The candidate of the largest party gets the job.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,730 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    recedite wrote: »
    So there is some sort of cold, indirect democracy going on there. That's what you're saying. I seem to remember there were 3 or 4 MEPs being elected for Ireland last time round, but I can't remember who they were, or why they were on the ballot paper.

    Just a few degrees of separation between the people and Junckers, but enough to make him totally unaccountable.

    Surely that's your fault for not researching who was on your ballot paper? Democracy works by electing people to act on the electorate's behalf. If you have a problem with it, why not contact your local MEP?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Democracy works by electing people to act on the electorate's behalf.
    So what do you call it when people are chosen by people who were elected by people who were elected by the people?
    If you have a problem with it, why not contact your local MEP?
    I've no idea who they are, or what country the are in. They probably have multiple addresses for best tax and expense account advantage.
    In fairness, whoever they are, I'm not interested in them, just as they aren't interested in me. Once they get onto the pigs back, they disappear.


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 409 ✭✭Sassygirl1999


    Budapest is pivoting toward Moscow now that much is clear
    The EU is in a muddle with refugees and Brexit , Hungary need to look after número uno


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,358 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    recedite wrote: »
    Orban was elected by his people. He is a legislator. His job is to change laws.
    Who elected Junckers?

    He changed the constitution of Hungary to suit himself. Orban controls pretty much everything in Hungary right now from the courts to all the mass media. He controls prosecution office, tax office, state auditors and national Bank of Hungary. Opposition to him has pretty much been eliminated.

    And re: support guys like Salvini get, no probably not. Probably never see a politician in Ireland enjoy the fervent support Saddam Hussein or Muammar Gaddafi enjoyed either but that's besides the point.

    Politicans are elected to represent the people, they aren't looked at as special here in Ireland or at least shouldn't be. Current MEP and former TD went to school with me and still lives in small town in Roscommon he grew up in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    recedite wrote: »
    So what do you call it when people are chosen by people who were elected by people who were elected by the people?
    Democracy. It's also the same way we choose a Taoiseach.
    I've no idea who they are,
    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ireland/en/your-meps
    or what country the are in.
    Uh... Ireland. They're Irish MEPs.
    :confused:
    They probably have multiple addresses for best tax and expense account advantage.
    Quite the allegation.
    In fairness, whoever they are, I'm not interested in them, just as they aren't interested in me. Once they get onto the pigs back, they disappear.
    Well that's really the rub of it isn't it? You complain about lack of democracy in the EU, but at the end of the day you just can't really be bothered to participate in it.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,730 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    recedite wrote: »
    So what do you call it when people are chosen by people who were elected by people who were elected by the people?

    Democracy. Elected representatives vote on things all the time.
    recedite wrote: »
    I've no idea who they are, or what country the are in. They probably have multiple addresses for best tax and expense account advantage.
    In fairness, whoever they are, I'm not interested in them, just as they aren't interested in me. Once they get onto the pigs back, they disappear.

    If you're not interested then that's your problem. Democracies give people the governments they deserve. If they don't bother researching their vote before they cast it then they get an appropriate government.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    rossie1977 wrote: »
    And re: support guys like Salvini get, no probably not. Probably never see a politician in Ireland enjoy the fervent support Saddam Hussein or Muammar Gaddafi enjoyed either but that's besides the point.
    Ironic that both of your examples were politicians popular among their own people, who were deposed and assassinated by outside globalists. Both countries now in ruins, having been quite prosperous only a few years ago.


    If we contrast the passion and the power on display at one of Salvini's walkabouts, with the general disinterest and cynicism of a EP election in Ireland, I think it shows that one is real democracy in action and the other is a pale imitation.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,730 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    recedite wrote: »
    If we contrast the passion and the power on display at one of Salvini's walkabouts, with the general disinterest and cynicism of a EP election in Ireland, I think it shows that one is real democracy in action and the other is a pale imitation.

    Really? A showing of admirers is more democratic than actual votes being cast by the electorate. How exactly do you define democracy?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    If we contrast the passion and the power on display at one of Salvini's walkabouts, with the general disinterest and cynicism of a EP election in Ireland, I think it shows that one is real democracy in action and the other is a pale imitation.

    You seem to have a bizarre view on how the world should work. Apparently being able to appeal to a crowd gives an elected leader the right to unilaterally ignore the terms of a treaty to which his country has freely signed up, because "democracy".

    You also appear to have the strange idea that democracy is a function of cheering crowds, not of boring old voting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Salvini has the votes to match his undoubted popularity.


    Meanwhile in Hungary, it seems that Brussels is in technical breach of the EU rules this time. Two can play at this game.
    The European Union’s basic treaty clearly states that a two-thirds majority is required for a procedure to be valid, he noted, insisting that this was not achieved and therefore the procedure should not go ahead.
    Guly said it was the first time the EP had held a vote on Article 7. He said house rules dictated that abstentions could be set aside in ordinary procedures but this rule did not apply in the case of special procedures.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Interestingly enough, turnout in the last Italian general election was 73 percent, the lowest since the restoration of democracy following World War Two. I don't know what that says about the passion of Italian voters.

    Having said that, it still beat turnout at our last general election (65 percent) and Hungary's (70 percent)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    You won't get more than about 75% turnout in a democracy unless something terrible is happening. Or you make voting a legal requirement, as it was in Italy up until the mid 90's. I'm not a fan of that idea, because people will vote randomly even when they don't understand the issues. Leave it to those who want to vote.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    I can't believe people criticize Orban and Salvini two politicians that don't want their countries turning to sh1t because of migrants. They say what people in this country are too afraid to say because of political correctness. If an Orban or a Salvini was to run in Ireland they would get my vote hands down.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    For those who say these attacks on Hungary by Junckers and his eurocrat buddies are nothing to do with migration policy, have a look at the timeline.


    Summer 2015 Greece overrun with migrants. Hungary holding them back and starts building a fence. Merkel unilaterally decides to abandon The Dublin system, which required that asylum applications be dealt with by the first country of entry. "Open the borders, Let them all through" she says.


    Winter 2015; Germany swamped with millions of migrants looking for free homes, free money, and a good time. Germans shocked at the unprecedented crime and mass groping at New Years Eve parties. Talk of mandatory migrant relocation policy for the EU.


    2016; Numerous terrorist attacks around the EU. Brexit referendum result shocks Brussels and London. Hungary finishes its fence and pre-empts mandatory migrant quotas by organising a referendum against the measure. 98% support Orban against the mandatory relocations, but technically the referendum fails because turnout is only 44%. Opposition groups who knew they would lose the referendum in a fair vote called for a boycott instead, knowing that would invalidate it. Orban continues to refuse the Brussels quotas, and is joined by other Visegrad countries.



    2017 Brussels takes Hungary to the ECJ for breach of EU treaty rules, and wins.
    Complaints by Hungary and Slovakia about EU migration policy have been dismissed by the European Court of Justice.
    In affirming that the two member states must accept EU-agreed quotas for the resettling of refugees, the European Union’s court has saved, and provided an important new underpinning to, the difficult principle of mutual burden sharing in the EU.
    The reluctance of both countries to accept their share of 40,000 refugees who were to be resettled from camps in Greece and Italy in 2015 had been justified by their governments on the grounds of security, and in Hungary’s case because they would dilute its Christian essence. The Hungarian prime minister, Viktor Orb has described immigration as a “poison” that increases the risk of terrorism.
    Hungary still refuses to comply.
    Brits invoke Article 50 to leave the EU.



    2018; Juncker and co. try to isolate Hungary and treat it as a pariah state. But its too late. The Visegrad countries are now meeting regularly and presenting a united front. Govts. in Austria and Italy have been turfed out and the new govts. are now aligned with the rebel eastern countries. Voters in Sweden and Denmark also getting fed up.

    The EU quietly abandons the mandatory migrant scheme.
    Decides to give Hungary a symbolic rap on the knuckles instead, by triggering Article 7 censure, accusing Hungary of breaking EU rules and generally being cheeky.
    Hungary responds immediately. It turns out Juncker hasn't read the rules himself :pac:



    to be continued....


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    It should be worth pointing out that while the Dublin convention entitles a Member State to return an asylum seeker to the Member State they entered irregularly for consideration of their application, it does not oblige them to do so. Article 17 states:
    By way of derogation from Article 3(1), each Member State may decide to examine an application for international protection lodged with it by a third-country national or a stateless person, even if such examination is not its responsibility under the criteria laid down in this Regulation.

    By opting to receive refugees who entered through other countries, Germany wasn't abandoning the Dublin Convention.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    It should be worth pointing out that while the Dublin convention entitles a Member State to return an asylum seeker to the Member State they entered irregularly for consideration of their application, it does not oblige them to do so. Article 17 states:



    By opting to receive refugees who entered through other countries, Germany wasn't abandoning the Dublin Convention.
    Returning an asylum seeker to the first country is only an option if the seeker had failed to register in that country originally. In other words, if they had slipped through a transit safe country on their way to a more appealing safe country.
    So, while its an option in that circumstance, the default conventional procedure is that the asylum seeker "should" still register in the first country. In abandoning that default, Germany did alter the convention which had been the norm prior to 2015.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    For those who say these attacks on Hungary by Junckers and his eurocrat buddies are nothing to do with migration policy, have a look at the timeline.
    Post hoc, ergo propter hoc?
    recedite wrote: »
    ...the default conventional procedure is that the asylum seeker "should" still register in the first country.

    That's simply not true. If you believe it to be true, point to the specific provision in the Dublin Regulation that says so. It shouldn't be hard to find; it's only ten pages long.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,103 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    recedite wrote: »
    For those who say these attacks on Hungary by Junckers and his eurocrat buddies are nothing to do with migration policy, have a look at the timeline.




    Your "timeline" is rather selective and misleading. No mention of orbans reduction of press freedom, the conservative constitution , or attacks on the judiciary,

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/world/europe/hungary-viktor-orban-judges.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭BabyCheeses


    recedite wrote: »
    So there is some sort of cold, indirect democracy going on there. That's what you're saying. I seem to remember there were 3 or 4 MEPs being elected for Ireland last time round, but I can't remember who they were, or why they were on the ballot paper.


    Just a few degrees of separation between the people and Junckers, but enough to make him totally unaccountable.


    Can you tell us what percentage of the vote Orban got in the election for prime minister?


    I don't get what you are trying to achieve, you've decided Orban is god, EU is bad and will through anything at the wall in the hopes that something will stick.


    Orban should take Hungary out of the EU to be a shining example of their potential.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    That's simply not true. If you believe it to be true, point to the specific provision in the Dublin Regulation that says so. It shouldn't be hard to find; it's only ten pages long.
    CRITERIA FOR DETERMINING THE MEMBER STATE RESPONSIBLE
    Article 7
    Hierarchy of criteria
    1. The criteria for determining the Member State responsible shall be applied in the order in which they are set out in this Chapter.
    2. The Member State responsible in accordance with the criteria set out in this Chapter shall be determined on the basis of the situation obtaining when the applicant first lodged his or her application for international protection with a Member State.
    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2013/604/oj
    As Greece was not bothering to register them, Hungary was the first EU country that attempted to do so. But Merkel said they were being too slow about it. Orban said they were just being thorough. We wouldn't want jihadis slipping through, would we. Innocent Europeans might get killed if that happened.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    As Greece was not bothering to register them, Hungary was the first EU country that attempted to do so.

    Nope. You're pointing to some random bit of text that says something that if you squint at it in poor light and if you have an agenda to drive, could almost be construed as coming close to meaning something vaguely like you claimed. Except it can't.

    It's not a question of a country "registering" asylum seekers; people apply for asylum.

    You've claimed that asylum seekers "should" do something. The Dublin Regulation imposes no such requirement on asylum seekers. In the immortal words of the late, great Hans Rosling: these facts are not up for discussion. I am right, and you are wrong.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You've claimed that asylum seekers "should" do something.
    I am, yes. They should register, but its up to the country they are entering to make them register.

    We can't have them wandering around using multiple aliases, and getting up to mischief like that Berlin truck driver.
    You're saying the Dublin regulation does not oblige the seekers to register. That is quite true. Its scope and purpose is to decide which EU country is responsible for processing them, which, as I pointed out, should be the first country that registered them. Which is exactly what the Hungarians were at before Merkel instructed them to open the borders. They could have said No to her of course, but sometimes you just gotta let people learn the hard way.
    Greece was not exactly violating the Dublin agreement, it was more a case of evading it. If every EU country behaved like that, none of the migrants would be registered anywhere. They would be wandering freely and anonymously throughout the Schengen area.


Advertisement