Why I'm taking my rental off the market

Graham · 09-09-2018 9:26pm

davo10 wrote: »

You are being simplistic. Taxation on Airbnb is similar to LPT payment, it is applied to all hosts registered with Airbnb.

Vacant property levy.

The discussion has moved on.

davo10 · 09-09-2018 9:30pm

Graham wrote: »

I didn't mention taxation on AirBnB.

Vacant property levy.

You quoted me on enforcement of regulations in general and used LPT as an example of how they are enforced. I am not talking about taxation of Airbnb income, crikey that is the easiest part to collect. I am talking about the regulation of Airbnb which frankly, encompasses a lot more than just a LPT type taxation collection like you mention.

Graham · 09-09-2018 9:33pm

A quick recap for you:

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'd guess that the next step after cutting off AirBnBs would be some tax measure to deter leaving properties empty.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Like everything there will be sod all enforcement and people will just continue to do it.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Are you suggesting that there is sod all enforcement of Revenue's existing obligations on landlords?

davo10 wrote: »

There is sod all enforcement of regulations in general.

Graham wrote: »

2017 LPT Compliance Statistics
The compliance rate for 2017 is currently at 97.5%*

Graham · 09-09-2018 9:35pm

Davo10 do you genuinely believe there is absolutely nothing government can do to implement and enforce regulation around short term lettings?

Honestly?

09-09-2018 9:40pm

There are some excellent tenants out there. I’m lucky to have such in my rental duplex. There for over 10 years, rent always on time, have flowers etc on the terrace, very house proud people from abroad. I use a good agency and they respond to any plumbing issues etc. As well as being excellent tenants they expect good standards and quick fixes to issues arising, that’s where the agency comes in and responds. I am very lucky indeed. One thing I allow are pets and these people are animal lovers, but nonetheless keep the place immaculate.

goat2 · 09-09-2018 9:44pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

I have a nice apartment in a very desirable area that will rent in a heartbeat.

I haven't raised the rent since 2008, and property was last rented at 40% below market rate. I've never been interested in getting the most rent possible.

Last tenant just abandoned the property without notice owing 4 months rent and has left the place in such a state that the kitchen and bathroom had to be entirely torn out and rebuilt from the studs out.

Living room floor so damaged it has to be replaced.

Kitchen appliances destroyed or missing.
Entire apartment needs to be completely repainted.

With the unpaid rent and repairs I'm out of pocket approx 17k euro, and no hope of reimbursement.

He had been there for 3 years with relatively few issues.

Place will be refurbed by end of September and is going on Air BnB, where 120 days a year occupancy will net me more than renting.

If the government restricts short term rentals then I'll just keep it empty and use it as a holiday home.

I'm sure I'm like many others who are sick of having zero property rights over their own property.

I don't blame you, this is the side that no other than landlords know of, yet they get a bad rap

Nika Bolokov · 09-09-2018 9:44pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Edgware wrote: »

Rental income is no different from income earned by working overtime or any other money earning enterprise. Landlords have to accept this. All across the board the Revenue have tightened up their tax gathering capability. The rental market is a lot more regulated now than 20 years ago where cash was king and there was massive undeclararation of income.
Many landlords cannot accept this. There are also too many amateur landlords who own one rental property, maybe bought in the boomtime and still in negative equity.
It is nobodys fault but their own that they are not getting the return they think they should.
If landlords think that they should get more favourable tax relief then why shouldnt every other income earner get the same

When you have to purchase your overtime hours at a cost of €x and then when you get paid for them you have to pay €0.5x in tax, then it's the same.

Not really , it isn't costing you 0.6 per hour to get to work

davo10 · 09-09-2018 9:45pm

Graham wrote: »

Davo10 do you genuinely believe there is absolutely nothing government can do to implement and enforce regulation around short term lettings?

Honestly?

I genuinely believe there is, but that doesn't mean they will. A quick Google of a vacant property levy throughs up an article about proposals to be brought to the Dail in September 2017. I think that any regulations on short term lets will be difficult to enforce because there are many ways of getting around limits on bookings and unless you have someone checking each property to see how often they have guests, the body assigned to regulate it will not be able to monitor it. There are planning lrestrictions already, no body heeds them, licensing requires voluntary disclosure which may not be forthcoming, the RTB is an example of that, and if the hosts uses any of the many platforms out there that don't have an Airbnb type agreement to inform Revenue and where cash is accepted, then Revenue won't even know. And that's not to mention, the obvious, no brainer way of getting around any vacant levy.

So do I think they can, yes, do I think it will work, no.

STB. · 09-09-2018 11:17pm

Graham wrote: »

Davo10 do you genuinely believe there is absolutely nothing government can do to implement and enforce regulation around short term lettings?

Honestly?

I don't think even the FG government have the gall to go down that road. They have introduced enough social burdens on property owners to go any further.

This will be an election year. The housing Minister is already under the cosh trying to introduce a plan that should have started when NAMA had all the properties that where flogged off to vulture funds.

It will only take one small thing to bring down this government. Its on the brink.

Graham · 09-09-2018 11:21pm

STB. wrote: »

This will be an election year. The housing Minister is already under the cosh trying to introduce a plan that should have started when NAMA had all the properties that where flogged off to vulture funds.

All the more reason it's likely to happen. Great soundbites:

Look electorate, we're clamping down on those landlords again to stop them making excessive profits from holiday rentals. As a result X,XXX properties have been returned to the residential market.

It's a vote winner.

Fol20 · 10-09-2018 12:17am

Graham wrote: »

All the more reason it's likely to happen. Great soundbites:

Look electorate, we're clamping down on those landlords again to stop them making excessive profits from holiday rentals. As a result X,XXX properties have been returned to the residential market.

It's a vote winner.

Your dead right. It’s a vote winner, however with time stats will say otherwise. Short term gain to keep them in the office

Greentopia · 10-09-2018 2:34am

Fol20 wrote: »

Personally I don’t believe the cost of rental factors into will a tenant pay rent or destroy the place at all. There are certain types out there that will do this no matter how much of a bargain they are getting

I'm sure many LLs would try to comfort themselves by thinking it doesn't factor into it (not speculating about you), but it stands to reason if a tenant is treated well and asked to pay reasonable rent in line more with the cost of living rather than what blind followers of what 'the market' dictates, that most will have more goodwill and respect for their LL than if they are getting gouged every month on rents they can't afford and which leaves them struggling.

And yes of course there are certain types out there who will regardless but I wasn't arguing against that. That's where the point I've made several times comes in-strict vetting and a tenant with proven track record before you accept them.

Fol20 wrote: »

It’s human nature that we keep wanting more and more, and if you give a little leeway, your setting a precedent where they will keep wanting/expecting more from it.

Not if you have a happy tenant who is respectful, decent and honest. Again- thorough vetting. And I was a tenant myself many times. I can assure you I never expected more than was reasonable or fair and neither did my partners.

Fol20 wrote: »

I learned the hardway from this and I know you can’t tarnish all tenants with one stroke however fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me

I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but there is a lot you can do to reduce any risk as I've stated.

Fol20 wrote: »

At the end of the day, look out for your own friends and family as that’s what everyone else are doing.the tenant that has a rent reduction won’t be opening his hands and arms trying to bed over backward to help you so why should I do the same?

I don't expect that, that's not the purpose of reducing the rent I ask. Expecting my tenant to behave in a reasonable and responsible manner in return for charging a fair rent is not bending over backwards. Not in my world anyway.

This "look out for friends and family" and to hell with everyone else is a toxic neoliberal attitude of instilling unnecessary distrust and fear that only plays into a divide and conquer narrative I will not be part of.
Societies that are the most successful and safe are the ones where people show the most solidarity and trust for each other, and that's how I was raised to treat others.
Obviously taking sensible precautions, having good judgement and understanding of human nature and going with one's instinct are all necessary in making good decisions about others.

bigpink · 10-09-2018 2:58am

Is Air BnB not a lot of work?

utmbuilder · 10-09-2018 3:33am

i think the answer is simple. property is not a good investment for a 1 house landlord in many cases.

utmbuilder · 10-09-2018 3:48am

so if i bought a by to let today, for 270k, id put say 90k euro down about 66%ltv

my mortgage repayment over 20 years would be 1200 ish a month

i rent out at 1500, pay 700ish a month in tax , put 800 off the mortgage add 400euro out of own pocket

in 20 years ive topped up mortgage by 100,000

total put in over 20 years 190,000 euro, if house value goes up 10k ive an assett worth 280,000 , so 90k on my investment broken down thats 2 to 2.5% of the 190k put in

property value should increase greatly being inflation proof so there are still gains but its a full term investment not a quick buck

bigpink · 10-09-2018 4:10am

A buy to let for 270k your brave people working can’t even afford that for a place to live

pwurple · 10-09-2018 5:25am

And don't forget the REITs etc pay corporate tax, not income tax. What is the corporate tax rate again?

Landlords are also the only sector where interest on a business loan (the mortgage) is not wholly deductible as a business expense.

The tax setup is really bizaar. Property has to pay USC and prsi, but not shares. It's not like it goes down the dole office when vacant.

Samuel T. Cogley · 10-09-2018 6:55am

bigpink wrote: »

Is Air BnB not a lot of work?

Nope. There are agencies that don't charge much more than a traditional letting agent and the cleaning fee is paid by the guest.

Samuel T. Cogley · 10-09-2018 6:57am

Graham wrote: »

A quick recap for you:

LPT come out of salary and is static, the property is either there or it isn't. It's not as simple for properties that may, or may not be empty given a certain set of regulations.

bigpink · 10-09-2018 6:58am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Nope. There are agencies that don't charge much more than a traditional letting agent and the cleaning fee is paid by the guest.

Still haven’t used Air Bnb always seem very expensive for the location etc end up in a hotel.Cleaning fees seem high aswell

Samuel T. Cogley · 10-09-2018 7:01am

bigpink wrote: »

Still haven’t used Air Bnb always seem very expensive for the location etc end up in a hotel.Cleaning fees seem high aswell

Dublin is which is just a function of how expensive hotels are; apartments have the advantage of being self-catering. We AirBnB'd our road trip across Sicily and it was very good value, especially the first place which was a self contained unit on the grounds of the old town mansion house, it was amazing!

bigpink · 10-09-2018 7:06am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Dublin is which is just a function of how expensive hotels are; apartments have the advantage of being self-catering. We AirBnB'd our road trip across Sicily and it was very good value, especially the first place which was a self contained unit on the grounds of the old town mansion house, it was amazing!

I find when I look in Dublin the location isn’t very central and it’s only a room in a house not even self catering add in fees taxis a hotel is the same with hopefully reasonable standards

Samuel T. Cogley · 10-09-2018 7:22am

bigpink wrote: »

I find when I look in Dublin the location isn’t very central and it’s only a room in a house not even self catering add in fees taxis a hotel is the same with hopefully reasonable standards

Mines more central than the Ashling and is about €30-€60 a nigh cheaper. There are a few around me of a similar price. I suppose it really depends what you're looking for. A hotel is nice but you're looking at c. €20+ a night on meals where as you can feed yourself for a fiver in a self catering gaffe.

The_Conductor · 10-09-2018 7:23am

utmbuilder wrote: »

so if i bought a by to let today, for 270k, id put say 90k euro down about 66%ltv

my mortgage repayment over 20 years would be 1200 ish a month

i rent out at 1500, pay 700ish a month in tax , put 800 off the mortgage add 400euro out of own pocket

in 20 years ive topped up mortgage by 100,000

total put in over 20 years 190,000 euro, if house value goes up 10k ive an assett worth 280,000 , so 90k on my investment broken down thats 2 to 2.5% of the 190k put in

property value should increase greatly being inflation proof so there are still gains but its a full term investment not a quick buck

Note: you also have to pay capital gains tax on the disposal of the property- as its not your PPR........

Samuel T. Cogley · 10-09-2018 7:27am

utmbuilder wrote: »

so if i bought a by to let today, for 270k, id put say 90k euro down about 66%ltv

my mortgage repayment over 20 years would be 1200 ish a month

i rent out at 1500, pay 700ish a month in tax , put 800 off the mortgage add 400euro out of own pocket

in 20 years ive topped up mortgage by 100,000

total put in over 20 years 190,000 euro, if house value goes up 10k ive an assett worth 280,000 , so 90k on my investment broken down thats 2 to 2.5% of the 190k put in

property value should increase greatly being inflation proof so there are still gains but its a full term investment not a quick buck

That assumes rents stay at an all time high, interest rates don't get you and that you don't have to spend 20K getting rid of a tenant and refitting the place - although that loss can be offset against income in fairness.

bigpink · 10-09-2018 7:29am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Mines more central than the Ashling and is about €30-€60 a nigh cheaper. There are a few around me of a similar price. I suppose it really depends what you're looking for. A hotel is nice but you're looking at c. €20+ a night on meals where as you can feed yourself for a fiver in a self catering gaffe.

Yes but a huge amount is just a room in someone’s house for a hotel price

10-09-2018 7:32am

AirBiB is thriving in Dublin because of;

1. Lack of affordable hotel beds
2. Landlord unfriendly legal environment.

Its being pushed and pulled in the same direction. Unless these two factors are fixed, trying to stop AirBnB by taxation/regulation will be like trying to hold back the tide.

Latest tactic mooted by Government of trying to limit AirBnB to spare rooms in family homes also likely unconstitutional.

davo10 · 10-09-2018 7:33am

Graham wrote: »

All the more reason it's likely to happen. Great soundbites:

Look electorate, we're clamping down on those landlords again to stop them making excessive profits from holiday rentals. As a result X,XXX properties have been returned to the residential market.

It's a vote winner.

General electorate couldn't care less in my opinion about houses being returned to the rental market. Many people have second properties bought in the boom and have either been burned by tenants or want to sell their rental properties as soon as they are out of negative equity. The Irish electorate are intelligent enough to know that landlords switching from rentals to Airbnb because they are fed up with renting long term, is not the cause of the housing crises. Any attempt to make it so just looks crass. There isn't a person in the country who doesn't know the housing crises is mainly due to a lack of building new homes over last last 10 years.

Vote winners are improved health care, lower taxes, childcare, higher minimum wage etc. Not punishing struggling property owners in negative equity, that just looks like they are trying to pass the blame.

bigpink · 10-09-2018 7:35am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Mines more central than the Ashling and is about €30-€60 a nigh cheaper. There are a few around me of a similar price. I suppose it really depends what you're looking for. A hotel is nice but you're looking at c. €20+ a night on meals where as you can feed yourself for a fiver in a self catering gaffe.

Twin in the Ashling hotel tomorrow night is 269 on booking advanced double sold at 224 what’s your apartment price out of interest

davo10 · 10-09-2018 7:42am

bigpink wrote: »

Twin in the Ashling hotel tomorrow night is 269 on booking advanced double sold at 224 what’s your apartment price out of interest

To give you an indication of my property, there is a hotel 300m from my house. 8 people can stay in my big 4 bed house, 4 ensuites for €220 per night at a weekend, €180 during the week. Hotel charges €140 -€180 per room. Big saving, good money for me. I make around €700 per w/d €2800 per month including cleaning fee.

Why I'm taking my rental off the market

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