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Why I'm taking my rental off the market
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So your sayIng he should close his eyes and pick a number between 1-10 to decide who stays there. It’s an interview process similar to applying for a job and you pick the best candidate.
I am the OP! And I've never discriminated against SW tenants (though they have been the ones that have caused the mist issues).0 -
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Multitude of posters on here harping on about demand for it. Of course there is.
Not one of them willing to live next door to an Airbnb let nor Willing to get planning permission and pay business rates for their rental.
It comes down to money. Ultimately yes if you aren't willing to satisfy the above then sell the place it would be back in the market then for someone to buy to Iive in.
It all comes back to skirting enough laws to make yourself a profit. And it's regulation that needs to stop this . There's nothing fair about any of it . Be it tenants , landlords or neighbours.0 -
Sorry listermint, but a deposit in escrow would be of no benefit to a Landlord. The rental property is an expensive asset and damage is rarely restricted to the equivalent of one month's rent. That might buy the op a new cooker.
Absolutely, there should be a clear, speedy and effective way to remove errant tenants, but that is not going to happen because it would add significantly to homeless numbers and they, along with a&e numbers are an anchor around the neck of a party in government.
Again, I strongly disagree with your statement that Airbnb is bad for everyone. It certainly is not bad for the property owner, it is not bad for the economy as tens of thousands of visitors come to the areas where the properties are, it is not bad for the guests, many of whom are Irish, who get accomadation at prices significantly lower than Hotels.
The only way I would be happy with a deposit escrow is if it’s 6months or more combined with speedy eviction process0 -
Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »Not the OP but for my input
1. A proper credit rating system which can be checked by LL/Agencies with negative effects on a tenantrs credit should they stop paying the rent/trash the place.
2. The ability to evict within 90 days for non payment of rent with a corasponding, First & Last Month's rent and security deposit system (of one month).
3. The ability to evict for antisocial behaviour/trashing the place within 14/30 days - although the former exisits good luck in enforceing it.
4. HAP to be brought in line with the way rent is paid - in advance - and paid in full from the local authority. Not this mishmash of part from the tenant. This would also hamper top-ups.
5. The ability to charge market rent to new tenants. Stiff penalties for LL's the evict to do this.
6. The ability to sell property and prevent tenantrs from overholding unless a lease with no break clause is in place.
7. Tax breaks for longer term leases with no break clauses.
You brought up a very valid point with the credit rating system. The Americans have one so why can’t we. This would be the best type of reference checker system you can get if it is easy for and transparent for ll and tenants alike to login to the system. The one piece that people need to be careful with is revenge if a ll lies about non payment or damages to get back at a tenant. If something like this was around, I wouldn’t need ll references or employment references0 -
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I have seen the knock-on effects of a ‘small time’ landlords leaving the industry. I myself am a small time landlord, I own an apartment that I originally bought for myself to live in back in 2003/4 but started renting it in 2008 when I lived abroad for a year. It’s been rented every since (few hairy years between 2010-2013 but never laid vacant for any long period).
My neighbour in the block is someone I got to know when we both lived there and he started renting his apartment out around the same time as me. He’s recently sold up due to his new tenant not paying rent for 4 months and then knowing the game was up, decided to smash the place to pieces, causing €6k worth of damage to fixtures/fittings. He had a large mortgage and with the liabilities to revenue each year, he was continually having to dip into his own PAYE income to cover the shortfall. Something I know all too well.
He previously rented his apartment for €1,150 (middle of an RPZ) for a 2 bed apartment, slightly smaller than mine (for reference, mine is rented for €1,200). He sold his apartment to a REIT back in 2017. It lay empty for a period of time and has since gone back on the rental market @ €1,900. I was up there about 6 weeks ago and there was a queue of 50-60 people to see the apartment. The advert was on Daft for about 2 days before being taken down. If my old neighbour had been renting that apartment, the new tenant would be paying €1,150-1200, but since he’s left the market, the same tenant is paying €1,900.
That’s a €700 difference in monthly rent between 2 almost identical apartments next door to each other.
This is happening all over the country (Dublin especially). Private landlords have been squeezed out of the market leaving REITs & ETFs to run the private rental market. I’ve told myself that if I ever have an experience like my neighbour or the OP, I’ll probably sell up and do something else with the money. I’ve been really lucky, I never over extended myself, used a good chunk of savings to buy the apartment and for the most part the rent has generally covered the mortgage. I fully appreciate others haven’t been so lucky.
Completely agree with your decision OP, hope AirBnB works out for you. Good luck!
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listermint wrote: »Multitude of posters on here harping on about demand for it. Of course there is.
Not one of them willing to live next door to an Airbnb let nor Willing to get planning permission and pay business rates for their rental.
It comes down to money. Ultimately yes if you aren't willing to satisfy the above then sell the place it would be back in the market then for someone to buy to Iive in.
It all comes back to skirting enough laws to make yourself a profit. And it's regulation that needs to stop this . There's nothing fair about any of it . Be it tenants , landlords or neighbours.
My property has planning for short term let's, so there's one for you.
Sorry but plenty of tenants are nightmares for their neighbours as well and at least Airbnb's tend to be restricted to weekends and are gone on Sunday. I know all the neighbours beside my Airbnb property, I talk to them pretty much every week when I'm there picking up linen/cleaning the place. Not once has there been an issue. There is however issues with a family renting a couple of doors down, all the neighbours complain about them.
Of course it's about money, it's a business, you are offering a service for payment, and that goes for both tenancies and short lets.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »We need people like the OP- not charging over-inflated rents, element of trust, providing decent housing. If these type of landlords leave the rental sector, then people will be subject to rogue landlords providing sub-standard accommodation and the big players who buy up whole apartment buildings.
I've been renting out my property here for over a year when I was in Germany-accidental LL. I stated exactly the type of tenant I wanted and got her-someone extremely clean (she's a professional cleaner herself!) and has a history of paying on time and respecting rental properties so she is responsible. She had good references and she had rented previously from the same agents who handle my property and they had no problems with her whatsoever. Deposit was paid no problem. My partner-German, gave me good advice on this based on what is expected in that country.
And contrary to what some seem to think here I charge below market rates because she's a working person and I don't believe in charging extortionate rent just because 'the market' says I should. It has worked very well. She respects the property and pays on time every month. I have always taken good care of the place and get any repairs done promptly.
If more LLs did all this I believe there would be far fewer problems all round.
Ultra strict vetting and provide decent standard accommodation at an affordable cost brings a higher likelihood of mutual respect. No guarantees because the system in Ireland is flawed for debt recovery, but a higher likelihood at least.
I believe if anything is likely to lead to someone thrashing a rental it's greedy LLs who squeeze every cent from their tenants. Seems logical this will in some people's minds lead to a "fcuk you" way of thinking when it's time for them to leave and the result will be leaving with unpaid rent and/or destroying the property or them just refusing to leave.
It took months for me to find the right tenant (losing out on rent for that time), but it has paid off.Deleted User wrote: »I'm not surprised when i hear landlords asking for 3 months rent in advance, extortionate type deposits and your entire life's history in order to consider you as a tenant- there's balance to be had somewhere between protecting tenants from rouge landlords and landlords experiencing this type of nonsense.
3 months is required in Germany, but then rents are more affordable there. Outside Munich anyway!
I think having a State enforcement agency who would have the powers to take legal action like attachment of earnings if someone skipped out on paying rent or wrecked the place would take care of a lot of problems. Yes we have recourse to the courts here but it seems a long drawn out process and there are no guarantees you will get back what you've lost as a LL if the tenant decided they won't pay or disappears.
I lived in Sweden for many years where there are tight rent controls and it's heavily regulated on both sides with a tenant having a LOT more rights-but also responsibilities, than Ireland, but there are no such problems because if someone is a bad tenant you simply put in a claim as a creditor to the Kronofogdemyndigheten -Crown Bailiff Authority who deal with public and private debt cases, and they take care of it for you.
The tenant has 10 days to respond to a letter from them. If they don't and so long as it's established the letter has reached them (easy to do, especially in Sweden where everyone has to be registered with the local authorities where they live and everyone has a Personal Number without which you can't rent a DVD never mind open a bank account or rent a property), then the enforcement authority can take personal property or get attachment of earnings from the tenants bank account and withdraw the money owed.
If the debt is denied within 10 days the Krono. establishes the debt with the courts and proceeds to recover the debt.
This all happens within a month of making a claim to them. Fast and efficient.
I have experience of how just how efficient they are-I didn't pay a mobile phone bill after I switched over to a new one (genuine mistake!) and within a few weeks got a letter in the door from them and the money was taken from my bank account.
My credit rating was screwed for the next year or more afterwards so taught me a lesson!
Oh and as well as getting an attachment for unpaid rent and or damages they will also claw back money spent on hiring professional cleaners if a tenant leaves an apartment in anything less than pristine conditions. And I mean pristine. For example leave hair in the plughole or an oven less than spotlessly clean and the apartment companies will get in the professionals and bill you as the tenant.
It's a great system and one we could do with having here. it teaches responsibility and there are consequences to one's actions.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 30614
Greentopia wrote: »3 months is required in Germany, but then rents are more affordable there. Outside Munich anyway!
3 months is the norm in parts of France and Portugal too (I'm not familiar with other member states)..........
There *has* to be reasonable way of conducting business- the current system is broken in so many different ways.0 -
The posts on this thread telling the OP he wasn't cut out for being a landlord etc are despicable. I can only assume they are made either by spoofers who have never owned a property or those that have been very lucky with tenants.
The simple matter is that this present government of 7 years have implemented no plans to actually build houses, especially for affordable/social housing. In the absence of such plans we have private landlords (some accidental) filling the void with the flimiest legislation that only Irish legislators are good at introducing that has no teeth with the inevitable financial consequences being dealt with by these landlords.
The PRTB has been a disaster of an idea. That whole system is clogged up with cases that when eventually heard will result in decisions and wards that have no legal clout for the landlord. Its just a time waster of due process that has no legal compensatory route.
NAMA was a lost opportunity to ringfence property for affordable means rather than having councils competing with residential buyers or commercial operations.
The RAS was another watery idea. The reality is that anyone foolish enough to hand over their house to the council thinking that they had peace of mind of coverage for damages etc, inevitably were left to deal with the nightmare through the PRTB. How many tenants in these schemes are deliberately overholding ? I suppose it keeps the emergency housing lists down for the Minister of the day!!
Nothing will change until we have a situation whereby we have an actual social housing & affordable building scheme that doesn't start and end with those responsibilities being foisted on private landlords in the absence of a clear strategy.
The OP may not enamor himself with his neighbours through running an AirBNB setup, but the alternative constraints are enough to send some private landlords that way, understandably.0 -
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Greentopia wrote: »I've been renting out my property here for over a year when I was in Germany-accidental LL. I stated exactly the type of tenant I wanted and got her-someone extremely clean (she's a professional cleaner herself!) and has a history of paying on time and respecting rental properties so she is responsible. She had good references and she had rented previously from the same agents who handle my property and they had no problems with her whatsoever. Deposit was paid no problem. My partner-German, gave me good advice on this based on what is expected in that country.
And contrary to what some seem to think here I charge below market rates because she's a working person and I don't believe in charging extortionate rent just because 'the market' says I should. It has worked very well. She respects the property and pays on time every month. I have always taken good care of the place and get any repairs done promptly.
If more LLs did all this I believe there would be far fewer problems all round.
Ultra strict vetting and provide decent standard accommodation at an affordable cost brings a higher likelihood of mutual respect. No guarantees because the system in Ireland is flawed for debt recovery, but a higher likelihood at least.
I believe if anything is likely to lead to someone thrashing a rental it's greedy LLs who squeeze every cent from their tenants. Seems logical this will in some people's minds lead to a "fcuk you" way of thinking when it's time for them to leave and the result will be leaving with unpaid rent and/or destroying the property or them just refusing to leave.
It took months for me to find the right tenant (losing out on rent for that time), but it has paid off.
3 months is required in Germany, but then rents are more affordable there. Outside Munich anyway!
I think having a State enforcement agency who would have the powers to take legal action like attachment of earnings if someone skipped out on paying rent or wrecked the place would take care of a lot of problems. Yes we have recourse to the courts here but it seems a long drawn out process and there are no guarantees you will get back what you've lost as a LL if the tenant decided they won't pay or disappears.
I lived in Sweden for many years where there are tight rent controls and it's heavily regulated on both sides with a tenant having a LOT more rights-but also responsibilities, than Ireland, but there are no such problems because if someone is a bad tenant you simply put in a claim as a creditor to the Kronofogdemyndigheten -Crown Bailiff Authority who deal with public and private debt cases, and they take care of it for you.
The tenant has 10 days to respond to a letter from them. If they don't and so long as it's established the letter has reached them (easy to do, especially in Sweden where everyone has to be registered with the local authorities where they live and everyone has a Personal Number without which you can't rent a DVD never mind open a bank account or rent a property), then the enforcement authority can take personal property or get attachment of earnings from the tenants bank account and withdraw the money owed.
If the debt is denied within 10 days the Krono. establishes the debt with the courts and proceeds to recover the debt.
This all happens within a month of making a claim to them. Fast and efficient.
I have experience of how just how efficient they are-I didn't pay a mobile phone bill after I switched over to a new one (genuine mistake!) and within a few weeks got a letter in the door from them and the money was taken from my bank account.
My credit rating was screwed for the next year or more afterwards so taught me a lesson!
Oh and as well as getting an attachment for unpaid rent and or damages they will also claw back money spent on hiring professional cleaners if a tenant leaves an apartment in anything less than pristine conditions. And I mean pristine. For example leave hair in the plughole or an oven less than spotlessly clean and the apartment companies will get in the professionals and bill you as the tenant.
It's a great system and one we could do with having here. it teaches responsibility and there are consequences to one's actions.
I get what your saying however it is possible to find a good tenant and maximise profits. Based on what your describing your operating more of a charity shop rather than a business. If every business was like you, the cost of everything wouldnt be as high, the margins on medical, IT etc is extremely high as its based on what you can command. "private"housing is a business and should be treated as such.
I am not familiar with the swedish system but it sounds perfect.0 -
This isn't really true. If you sell then the new owners will live in it. The only way it can add to the homeless problem is if you or a new owner keep it empty. So long as people live in it it doesn't effect homeless figures at all
Why would the homeless problem get any worse when you've moved from renting to selling? You're not destroying the house, so presumably someone will live in it when you sell, either as a owner or tenant.
The housing crisis is due to a lack of overall supply of housing units0 -
Why would the homeless problem get any worse when you've moved from renting to selling? You're not destroying the house, so presumably someone will live in it when you sell, either as a owner or tenant.
The housing crisis is due to a lack of overall supply of housing units
That's the key point . Too much business not enough housing stock.0 -
I get what your saying however it is possible to find a good tenant and maximise profits. Based on what your describing your operating more of a charity shop rather than a business. If every business was like you, the cost of everything wouldnt be as high, the margins on medical, IT etc is extremely high as its based on what you can command. "private"housing is a business and should be treated as such.
But that's the problem as I see it-the drive to maximise profits at all costs and to hell with whether the tenant can afford it or not. There are likely consequences under the Irish system for behaving like a greed merchant as have been mentioned-the place thrashed, rent unpaid... I prefer to charge what I believe my tenant can afford to pay and that way have someone more likely (along with strict vetting controls) to respect my property. It's a risk in any case but I prefer to minimise that risk.
What's the point in charging outrageous rents if you're going to have to pay it back out in legal fees or getting a builder in to fix things deliberately broken by tenant who despises you for making their lives hell by having to come up with rents they can't afford every month? Makes no logical sense even, never mind business sense. Maximising profits comes at too high a cost to me and my tenant.
"Charity shop" lol, if it was that I could have just asked a friend if they wanted to live there for free. That's a misconstruction of my argument.
I don't see it as a business, it's just a way for me to keep my house from falling down while I don't live there and have a bit more money in my pocket at the same time. I see housing as a right that everyone should have and should be affordable for all, not an instrument for the few to make a business from.
Personally if I was Housing Minister I'd invest massively in social housing like Sweden did with the Million Programme in the 1960s and 70s where they constructed one million social homes-apartments and houses, in 10 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Programme
But that would require imagination and political will beyond the capacity of any Irish FG/FF Minister. :rolleyes:I am not familiar with the swedish system but it sounds perfect.
Not perfect, but a hell of a lot better than the Irish from my experience and knowledge.0 -
I completely understand what your saying and a lot of decent ll show good will towards their tenants be it for a difficult situation for the tenant or for other stuff. I don’t however agree that someone you may have had a good relationship for x years should be treated the same as a brand new tenant that your meeting for the first time and that’s what this rpz forces ll to do.
Personally I don’t believe the cost of rental factors into will a tenant pay rent or destroy the place at all. There are certain types out there that will do this no matter how much of a bargain they are getting.
It’s human nature that we keep wanting more and more, and if you give a little leeway, your setting a precedent where they will keep wanting/expecting more from it. I learned the hardway from this and I know you can’t tarnish all tenants with one stroke however fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me
At the end of the day, look out for your own friends and family as that’s what everyone else are doing.the tenant that has a rent reduction won’t be opening his hands and arms trying to bed over backward to help you so why should I do the same?0 -
A landlord who thinks he/she just has to place an ad, get a tenant and watch the money roll in. Too many of the one property landlords do not accept that they are providing a service in response for payment. They wont do repairs promptly, service boilers, replace appliances when needed and whinge when tenants make legitimate complaintsWhat is an "amateur landlord"? As opposed to a professional one.0 -
But if they are amateurs, they cannot be professionalsA landlord who thinks he/she just has to place an ad, get a tenant and watch the money roll in. Too many of the one property landlords do not accept that they are providing a service in response for payment. They wont do repairs promptly, service boilers, replace appliances when needed and whinge when tenants make legitimate complaints
If you expect someone to provide a service for a fee, that's not amateur by definition.0 -
A landlord who thinks he/she just has to place an ad, get a tenant and watch the money roll in. Too many of the one property landlords do not accept that they are providing a service in response for payment. They wont do repairs promptly, service boilers, replace appliances when needed and whinge when tenants make legitimate complaints
And you think corporates are better? There have been many threads on here over the years complaining about the behaviour of corporate landlords and their agents. Also, I can assure you that unlike the op, corporates will charge the maximum they are allowed every minute of the tenancy and will not hesitate to evict at the first sign of trouble. Most LL's own single properties, without them there would be no rental market. How many corporates do you think are going to let a house in small/medium sized towns?0 -
Maybe Edgware wants the government to bring in more vulture funds who have no compassion for tenants?And you think corporates are better? There have been many threads on here over the years complaining about the behaviour of corporate landlords and their agents. Also, I can assure you that unlike the op, corporates will charge the maximum they are allowed every minute of the tenancy and will not hesitate to evict at the first sign of trouble. Most LL's own single properties, without them there would be no rental market. How many corporates do you think are going to let a house in small/medium sized towns?0 -
Do you feel you should be exempt from income tax?
Income tax is too high.
Do I believe I should be exempt from income tax - yes, please, how can I avail of this.
Charging landlords the full whack of income tax and not allowing them to operate like a business (taking all expenses as expenses) is madness.
OP , I know so many properties up on Airbnb due to this , the regulations and 'always side with the tenant' PRTB are insane , fair play to you and good luck.0 -
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Like all insurance policies, it appears to be difficult to make a claim, requiring a police report amongst other things.Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe Airbnb have a insurance policy if the house is wreckedSamuel T. Cogley wrote: »He might aswell leave it empty and save himself the hassle or AirBnB it, make more money than renting it and have less chance of the place being destroyed as each guest is vetted.
AirBnB guests aren't vetted. You might have ratings and reviews of the guest from previous hosts, but that's a long way off vetting - and certainly no guarantee that a guest won't be on a party weekend this time round.Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »And I've a pad for the weekends in town. I wouldn't be putting it on the market, just leaving it empty. Granted I would eventually sell, but I'm going to dot that anyway. In the mean time I'm poorer and the economy has 3000 less rich tourists per week spening money in Temple Bar.
I'd guess that the next step after cutting off AirBnBs would be some tax measure to deter leaving properties empty.0 -
AndrewJRenko wrote: »AirBnB guests aren't vetted. You might have ratings and reviews of the guest from previous hosts, but that's a long way off vetting - and certainly no guarantee that a guest won't be on a party weekend this time round.
ID is required and for my unit posative reviews. Given they've already paid and are very unlikely to overhold that's safer than looking for LL references and bank statements.AndrewJRenko wrote: »I'd guess that the next step after cutting off AirBnBs would be some tax measure to deter leaving properties empty.
Like everything there will be sod all enforcement and people will just continue to do it.0 -
Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »ID is required and for my unit posative reviews. Given they've already paid and are very unlikely to overhold that's safer than looking for LL references and bank statements.
Yes, ID is required - but no vetting. If you're happy with the positive reviews, good for you. You're right that overholding is unlikely to be the problem.
Are you suggesting that there is sod all enforcement of Revenue's existing obligations on landlords?Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »Like everything there will be sod all enforcement and people will just continue to do it.0 -
AndrewJRenko wrote: »Yes, ID is required - but no vetting. If you're happy with the positive reviews, good for you. You're right that overholding is unlikely to be the problem.
Are you suggesting that there is sod all enforcement of Revenue's existing obligations on landlords?
In the absence of renting to friends and family, these reviews/vetting is all that can be gotten. The guests have paid using their credit cards in advance, Airbnb insure against damage and the additional insurance which you require also covers guest damage, I'm not sure what else is needed.
There is sod all enforcement of regulations in general.0 -
Another case that I know of;
Landlord has house worth 600k, bringing in 2k a month. He has 6k into his hand, giving him a return of 1% on his investment.
Ideally he would like to sell the house and invest in something like BP, giving him 5% (before tax) with no hassle.
However selling will land him with a 150k tax bill, so he won't do that.
His decision is to stop renting the property and to use the house as a dublin base for visits for himself and his extended family. Occasional airbnb not ruled out as its near a sports stadium.0 -
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2017 LPT Compliance Statistics
The compliance rate for 2017 is currently at 97.5%*
LPT are applied to all residential properties. There is no licensing etc involved. Regulating Airbnb, the nights occupied, planning, checking standards, collecting rates for different counties/areas etc, do you think that is the same as collecting LPT?
LPT complainamce statistics is more akin to statistics on taxation of Airbnb income, given that Airbnb forward payment info to Revenue, I suspect compliance with taxation on income is pretty close to the LPT.0 -
LPT are applied to all residential properties. There is no licensing etc involved. Regulating Airbnb, the nights occupied, planning, checking standards, collecting rates for different counties/areas etc, do you think that is the same as collecting LPT?
You suggested nobody would be able to enforce any type of vacant property levy.
Current LPT collection rates suggest otherwise.0 -
You suggested nobody would be able to enforce any type of vacant property levy.
Current LPT collection rates suggest otherwise.
I suggested it will be difficult for CoCo's to regulate Airbnb properties and it will be difficult to prevent property owners from renting their properties for more than a limited number of nights.
You are being simplistic. Taxation on Airbnb is similar to LPT payment, it is applied to all hosts registered with Airbnb. The regulation of Airbnb which would include checking to see if it complied with planning, minimum standards, limited bookings per year, licensing etc would require a lot more manpower than a levy applied to all residential properties irrespective.
LPT can be deducted at source or added to the tax liability of the property owner, but if a tenant is letting on Airbnb, the owner could be tax compliant and the tenant not.
Again, I have not heard any mention of this being assigned to Revenue, on the other hand there has been plenty about county councils being used to regulate their areas.0 -
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[Deleted User] wrote: »Another case that I know of;
Landlord has house worth 600k, bringing in 2k a month. He has 6k into his hand, giving him a return of 1% on his investment.
Ideally he would like to sell the house and invest in something like BP, giving him 5% (before tax) with no hassle.
However selling will land him with a 150k tax bill, so he won't do that.
His decision is to stop renting the property and to use the house as a dublin base for visits for himself and his extended family. Occasional airbnb not ruled out as its near a sports stadium.
What a terrible situation to be in sitting on c.500k of an unrealised capital gain...
24k gross rental and only ends up with 6k? Id get a new accountant0
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