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Anti-vaxxers

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    #1382
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    jh79 wrote: »
    Seems quite high, where are you getting these figures from?

    The 12% to 26% figure is on the vaccine insert for MMR 11.
    The MMR used here MMRvaxpro vaccine insert states 12% to 20%.
    The other MMR used here Priorix mentions arthritis and arthralgia but no figures. Would imagine it's similar.


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    #1383
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    skepticalme wrote: »
    The 12% to 26% figure is on the vaccine insert for MMR 11.
    The MMR used here MMRvaxpro vaccine insert states 12% to 20%.
    The other MMR used here Priorix mentions arthritis and arthralgia but no figures. Would imagine it's similar.
    Following vaccination in children, reactions in joints are uncommon and generally of brief duration. In women, incidence rates for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in children (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%),{17,56,57} and the reactions tend to be more marked and of longer duration. Symptoms may persist for a matter of months or on rare occasions for years. In adolescent girls, the reactions appear to be intermediate in incidence between those seen in children and in adult women. Even in women older than 35 years, these reactions are generally well tolerated and rarely interfere with normal activities.

    https://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/UCM123789.pdf


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    #1384
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    skepticalme wrote: »
    The 12% to 26% figure is on the vaccine insert for MMR 11.
    The MMR used here MMRvaxpro vaccine insert states 12% to 20%.
    The other MMR used here Priorix mentions arthritis and arthralgia but no figures. Would imagine it's similar.

    Incidences of arthritis and arthralgia are pretty similar in those who do not get the mmr vaccination.


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    #1385
    Shadow1983
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭Shadow1983


    I understand where you're coming from but I didn't say nor insinuate he was a quack. I don't mind him Googling at all but he wasn't able to give me one reason why I shouldn't have it. I wasn't aware of those statistics you quoted so thanks for info, perhaps he has seen side effects indeed but he just seemed to shut me down straight away so I'm just trying to understand why.


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    #1386
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,185 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Be careful about the statistics . As was posted, they don't show any risk from the vaccine than NOT taking the vaccine. The original quoter is an antivaxxer troll who shows up here occasionally and gets refuted then goes away till he can troll someone new.

    If it were me I'd ignore them and pin down exactly WHY your GP is against your being vaccinated. I would not bring them up to the GP. Measles is around in Ireland and it's risky to not be up to date .


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    #1387
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    jh79 wrote: »
    Incidences of arthritis and arthralgia are pretty similar in those who do not get the mmr vaccination.

    Can't find this. Where are these figures?


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    #1388
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Be careful about the statistics . As was posted, they don't show any risk from the vaccine than NOT taking the vaccine. The original quoter is an antivaxxer troll who shows up here occasionally and gets refuted then goes away till he can troll someone new.

    If it were me I'd ignore them and pin down exactly WHY your GP is against your being vaccinated. I would not bring them up to the GP. Measles is around in Ireland and it's risky to not be up to date .

    I take it I'm the male antivaxer troll. Alot of assumptions there.
    The statistics are on the vaccine inserts and there have been numerous studies done.
    You were the poster that suggested reporting the quack to the medical council.
    I get it, you love the MMR. Will be interesting to find out why the doctor is reluctant.


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    #1389
    Shadow1983
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭Shadow1983


    Igotadose wrote:
    Be careful about the statistics . As was posted, they don't show any risk from the vaccine than NOT taking the vaccine. The original quoter is an antivaxxer troll who shows up here occasionally and gets refuted then goes away till he can troll someone new.

    Igotadose wrote:
    If it were me I'd ignore them and pin down exactly WHY your GP is against your being vaccinated. I would not bring them up to the GP. Measles is around in Ireland and it's risky to not be up to date .


    Thanks for that. Yes, the plan is to find out why he feels I shouldn't get it, I want answers at this stage. If they refuse again I'm just going to keep trying other doctors until I find one that will immunize me. I can't believe in this day and age I'm having this issue when all I'm trying to do is protect myself and others around me. Really appreciate your advice so far, will post tomorrow and let you know how I get on.


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    #1390
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,934 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    skepticalme wrote: »
    I take it I'm the male antivaxer troll. Alot of assumptions there.
    The statistics are on the vaccine inserts and there have been numerous studies done.
    You were the poster that suggested reporting the quack to the medical council.
    I get it, you love the MMR. Will be interesting to find out why the doctor is reluctant.

    You have provided absolutely nothing to substantiate your claims. Not so much as a single shred of evidence.

    For someone who includes the word skeptical in their username, you seem to have swallowed the anti-vaxxer narrative hook, line and sinker.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #1391
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    skepticalme wrote: »
    Can't find this. Where are these figures?

    Don't know how to link a pdf file on the phone.

    Google arthritis risk ratio mmr

    It's an information sheet from the WHO dated May 2014.

    Short term joint pain has an odds ratio of 1.7
    Long term showed no significant difference.

    The figure from the insert includes baseline risk.


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    #1392
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    skepticalme wrote: »
    Can't find this. Where are these figures?

    Have a look at this too.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs13167-017-0101-y


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    #1393
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    You have provided absolutely nothing to substantiate your claims. Not so much as a single shred of evidence.

    For someone who includes the word skeptical in their username, you seem to have swallowed the anti-vaxxer narrative hook, line and sinker.

    I can post the vaccine inserts but I assumed anyone interested could just look them up.
    That's the second time you've made references to my username. Its a username. I haven't swallowed anything. I read both sides though I wonder about little things like why the media are hysterical about measles but I never see the advice to give 2 doses of vitamin A if measles is contracted.


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    #1394
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    skepticalme wrote: »
    I can post the vaccine inserts but I assumed anyone interested could just look them up.
    That's the second time you've made references to my username. Its a username. I haven't swallowed anything. I read both sides though I wonder about little things like why the media are hysterical about measles but I never see the advice to give 2 doses of vitamin A if measles is contracted.

    2 doses of vitamin A IF a vitamin A deficiency is present.


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    #1395
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,934 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    skepticalme wrote: »
    I can post the vaccine inserts but I assumed anyone interested could just look them up.
    That's the second time you've made references to my username. Its a username. I haven't swallowed anything. I read both sides though I wonder about little things like why the media are hysterical about measles but I never see the advice to give 2 doses of vitamin A if measles is contracted.

    It isn't the media's job to give medical advice.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #1396
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    skepticalme wrote: »
    I can post the vaccine inserts but I assumed anyone interested could just look them up.
    That's the second time you've made references to my username. Its a username. I haven't swallowed anything. I read both sides though I wonder about little things like why the media are hysterical about measles but I never see the advice to give 2 doses of vitamin A if measles is contracted.

    Measles outbreaks make the news in the same way that some crazy story like "Man eats his own big toe in his sleep" makes the news. Both stories are unbelievable. It is amazing that there are still measles outbreaks in a developed country in this day and age, especially when it can be prevented so easily.

    The sooner mandatory vaccination is introduced the better. Anyone that listens to their facebook friend instead of virtually every doctor on the planet needs to be forced to do the correct thing for their childrens health.


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    #1397
    skepticalme
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭skepticalme


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It isn't the media's job to give medical advice.

    They should stop running ads for flu vaccine, hpv vaccine, mmr vaccine in that case.
    It is the HSE, NHS job, nothing on their sites about vitamin A either.


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    #1398
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    skepticalme wrote: »
    They should stop running ads for flu vaccine, hpv vaccine, mmr vaccine in that case.
    It is the HSE, NHS job, nothing on their sites about vitamin A either.

    Nothing wrong with the media giving advice on prevention. Treatment is entirely different because that requires a diagnosis!


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    #1399
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    skepticalme wrote: »
    It is the HSE, NHS job, nothing on their sites about vitamin A either.
    Because vitamin A is not required unless you have a vitamin A deficiency. And in fact, vitamin A supplements should not be taken by people who do not have a deficiency, and doing so can lead to health complications.

    Whereas everyone should get the MMR unless they have a physical reason they can't.


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    #1400
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    skepticalme wrote: »
    They should stop running ads for flu vaccine, hpv vaccine, mmr vaccine in that case.
    It is the HSE, NHS job, nothing on their sites about vitamin A either.

    https://www.cochrane.org/CD001479/ARI_vitamin-a-for-measles-in-children

    Vitamin A is used if the child has already contracted measles and in that case would already be receiving hospital care. What would be the point of the HSE promoting it when the mega doses required would be done under medical supervision rather than by a parent?


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    #1401
    Queen Cleopatra
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭Queen Cleopatra


    VicMackey1 wrote: »

    The sooner mandatory vaccination is introduced the better. Anyone that listens to their facebook friend instead of virtually every doctor on the planet needs to be forced to do the correct thing for their childrens health.

    Respectfully, according to you compulsory vaccination would mean the numerous of cases of narcolepsy would be much higher!


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    #1402
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    Queen Cleopatra wrote: »
    Respectfully, according to you compulsory vaccination would mean the numerous of cases of narcolepsy would be much higher!

    Yes. However, the benefit still greatly outweighs the risk! Think of all the serious complications and deaths that could be prevented with mandatory vaccination!


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    #1403
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    VicMackey1 wrote: »
    Yes. However, the benefit still greatly outweighs the risk! Think of all the serious complications and deaths that could be prevented with mandatory vaccination!

    The increased risk of narcolepsy was only associated with Pandemrix which is no longer used, so there would be no increase with compulsory vaccinations.


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    #1404
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    jh79 wrote: »
    The increased risk of narcolepsy was only associated with Pandemrix which is no longer used, so there would be no increase with compulsory vaccinations.

    I'm sorry, my post wasn't clear. I mean the number would be higher if mandatory vaccination was in place for that vaccine.


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    #1405
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    skepticalme wrote: »
    They should stop running ads for flu vaccine, hpv vaccine, mmr vaccine in that case.
    It is the HSE, NHS job, nothing on their sites about vitamin A either.

    The ads are run in media by medical institutions such as the HSE. It's the medical professionals giving the advice, not the Irish Times.


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    #1406
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    VicMackey1 wrote: »
    I'm sorry, my post wasn't clear. I mean the number would be higher if mandatory vaccination was in place for that vaccine.
    Sure, but being intellectually honest, nobody ever suggests that seasonal or even extraordinary flu vaccines should be mandatory.

    The "mandatory" suggestion is always in relation to the standard immunisation schedule.


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    #1407
    knipex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    Queen Cleopatra wrote: »
    Respectfully, according to you compulsory vaccination would mean the numerous of cases of narcolepsy would be much higher!

    Who ever said compulsory vaccination for everything ??

    We are talking about MMR, Polio, and a few other critical vaccines..


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    #1408
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    seamus wrote: »
    Sure, but being intellectually honest, nobody ever suggests that seasonal or even extraordinary flu vaccines should be mandatory.

    The "mandatory" suggestion is always in relation to the standard immunisation schedule.

    I think that flu vaccines should be mandatory for healthcare workers though. I think it is commonplace in many countries for healthcare and defense forces.


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    #1409
    Queen Cleopatra
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭Queen Cleopatra


    seamus wrote: »
    Sure, but being intellectually honest, nobody ever suggests that seasonal or even extraordinary flu vaccines should be mandatory.

    The "mandatory" suggestion is always in relation to the standard immunisation schedule.

    I would suggest it. What would be wrong with compulsory vaccination for the flu? Surely that would save a huge number of lives every year!


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    #1410
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Queen Cleopatra wrote: »
    I would suggest it. What would be wrong with compulsory vaccination for the flu? Surely that would save a huge number of lives every year!


    Ohh look you again show a complete lack of knowledge about vaccines. The seasonal flu vaccine has a higher chance of not being effective due to how its designed on a yearly basis. Scientists create it to target what are believed to be the most common strains that year. But its possible for them to be wrong so its effectiveness is not a fixed percentage year over year. Making it mandatory for everyone is pointless and would be very expensive


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    #1411
    Queen Cleopatra
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭Queen Cleopatra


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Ohh look you again show a complete lack of knowledge about vaccines. The seasonal flu vaccine has a higher chance of not being effective due to how its designed on a yearly basis. Scientists create it to target what are believed to be the most common strains that year. But its possible for them to be wrong so its effectiveness is not a fixed percentage year over year. Making it mandatory for everyone is pointless and would be very expensive

    So let's say there is a flu going around with the potential to cause a lot of deaths bird flu/swine flu etc. The strain is known so compulsory vaccination would be beneficial! As for the seasonal flu, you can't deny that public health in general wouldn't improve if everyone got it every year. Some years it may not be very effective but other years it might be. Id imagine there is a huge cost to the economy whenever there is a flu outbreak. FWIW I have all my children vaccinated from head to toe and you say I have a COMPLETE lack of knowledge about vaccines. Does that mean my judgement was wrong when I decided to have them vaccinated??? That is going to wreck your head! Kinda like if a tree falls in the woods


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