Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Akrasia · 04-09-2018 8:05pm

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Clearly, to anyone that has listened to Petterson, that is not the case, the following a prime example:

Peterson: "[Identity politics] opens the door to the radical right wingers..."
Shapiro: "Yes and that's the danger of the actual alt-right as the alt-right is a reactionary identity politics movement and the left doesn't want acknowledge its own role in helping to drive the emergence of a reactionary identity politics movement, which by the way, I find despicable as I think all identity politics movements are despicable"
Peterson: "That's exactly what i think too. I don't care if they're on the right or the left."

In that quote, we have Shapiro blame the rise of the 'alt right' on 'the left' and Peterson says 'Thats exactly what I think too'

So even when he's doing the whole 'bad people on both sides' thing, he still says that even the bad guys on the right are still the fault of the left.

Giraffe Box · 04-09-2018 8:17pm

johnp001 wrote: »

History has many examples of people who made big impacts on society at a young age so I would not agree with anyone who said "no 18 year old knows anything and attempts by them to effect change in society are either futile or destructive". In the context of that show and on the subject of responsibility though he is correct to say that people are generally better served by accepting personal responsibility for their situation and trying to improve themselves as a first step before deciding that society needs to be reconstructed to remedy their problems.

I'll take it up to 'destructive', the rest is waffle.

Young people get involved in politics - and yes on the Left if that's still allowed - for a number of reasons, some personal, some idealistic (imagine that). And not just to 'remedy their problems', which is a very cynical and caustic view of 18-year-old students and their political motives. Not everyone is as self-serving as the millionaire professor, though he certainly has remedied any financial problem he may have had himself thanks to the largesse of those very students he holds in such low regard.

https://www.networthleaks.com/jordan-b-peterson/

xckjoo · 05-09-2018 10:25am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You're right. The topic was responsibility. So when he talks about freedom of expression or responsibility, he really only talks about them as left problems. He could use Colin Kapernick as as example of someone who has been shut out of his job and 'no platformed'. Bullied by the POTUS who traditionally upheld the right to free speech. But I wouldn't hold my breath because his audience doesn't want to hear that so he won't be selling it. He'll package 'the left' as the problem because that's the product he's selling.

On the interview, don't you think it's amusing that he spent so much time giving g out about young people and then they had young people who explicitly agreed with everything he said? If 'the kids today' are such responsibility dodging little cretins as Peterson describe them, why didn't they get some of those responsibility Dodgers to take part in the discussion?

Do I believe that the young people today abdicate responsibility? I've no idea. I don't actually have any way to compare it. I know 'young people today aren't as good as back in my day' is something old people say. It's said by every generation, ever.

This quote is attributed to Sacrates about 400BC: "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room"

I suppose the most interesting thing about old people being so intent on talking down the youth, is the fact that they think they're discovering something new. They don't seem to know that they're assuming the most cliche mantra of old people. The day will never come when Peterson can't flog 'young people and the left are doing it wrong' to old conservative people.

I'll be honest and admit that I tuned out for parts of it because I was working while listening

Ya you're completely right; everyone thinks things were better/harder/whatever when they were young and todays youth are the worst. It's all bollocks. Part of me feels like todays youth are harder working than my generation was (mid-30's). My point was more that they've been let down by the adults who have created a system that 1) spoon-feeds them everything while they're growing up and 2) doesn't equip them with the skills to thrive mentally and emotionally (and physically too I guess). Anybody that blames kids for how they turn out is blind to the fact that they're a product of their upbringing, which is the responsibility of adults.

A lot of what I've seen of Petersons advice (12 Rules, etc.) seems to be trying to offset this gap. He espouses some somewhat obvious cliches like "clean your room" that promote taking control of your own life. If you talk to teachers at any level of education, they'll all complain about the Helicopter Parenting thats become so common. Kids aren't being left to deal with small problems themselves while they grow up and then don't know how to deal with bigger issues when they grow up. His "cliched" advice speaks to them.

Peterson claims to have young people coming up to him wherever he goes and telling him how much his work has improved their lives and relationships and given them direction. If true it's a worthy achievement.

alaimacerc · 07-09-2018 12:08pm

Akrasia wrote: »

So even when he's doing the whole 'bad people on both sides' thing, he still says that even the bad guys on the right are still the fault of the left.

Not to mention the false equivalence of that in the first instance, a la the Trumpy application of that precise "logic".

alaimacerc · 07-09-2018 12:30pm

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

The titles of these vid uploads are hilariously revelatory. Rarely is JP not DEBUNKing or UTTERLY DEMOLISHing something or other. Even more rare if it's not in ALLCAPS, either.

I find his regressive vituperations to be excellent! They accord exactly with my own views on pesky people further down the privilege pyramid. Only with with more syllables!

I can't help but be reminded of a certain other notorious Canadian export. They used to say that the worst thing about Rush was the Rush fans...

El_Duderino 09 · 07-09-2018 12:38pm

xckjoo wrote: »

I'll be honest and admit that I tuned out for parts of it because I was working while listening
Ya you're completely right; everyone thinks things were better/harder/whatever when they were young and todays youth are the worst. It's all bollocks. Part of me feels like todays youth are harder working than my generation was (mid-30's). My point was more that they've been let down by the adults who have created a system that 1) spoon-feeds them everything while they're growing up and 2) doesn't equip them with the skills to thrive mentally and emotionally (and physically too I guess). Anybody that blames kids for how they turn out is blind to the fact that they're a product of their upbringing, which is the responsibility of adults.

A lot of what I've seen of Petersons advice (12 Rules, etc.) seems to be trying to offset this gap. He espouses some somewhat obvious cliches like "clean your room" that promote taking control of your own life. If you talk to teachers at any level of education, they'll all complain about the Helicopter Parenting thats become so common. Kids aren't being left to deal with small problems themselves while they grow up and then don't know how to deal with bigger issues when they grow up. His "cliched" advice speaks to them.

Peterson claims to have young people coming up to him wherever he goes and telling him how much his work has improved their lives and relationships and given them direction. If true it's a worthy achievement.

Kids today might be as hard working as generations before they (I suspect the type of work has changed). But the kids today don’t get the same benefits as generations past.

Things like chances of home ownership, job stability, financial stability in retirement and pensions, not to mention the fact that lots of young people can’t afford to start a family. This means the demands, prospects and rewards for ‘the kids today’ are very different from the past.

Peterson doesn’t spend time discussing those factors, he jumps straight to ‘kids were better in the old days, amiright?’

He talks about a very specific set of things but it’s on no way supposed to be an impartial look at things. It’s about justifying the conclusion that the kids and the lift are wrong.

It’s the intellectual side of the Fox News message. But it’s no more honest.

Star Bingo · 07-09-2018 12:41pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

I can't help but be reminded of a certain other notorious Canadian export. They used to say that the worst thing about Rush was the Rush fans...

Ouch! That’s gotta hurt.

xckjoo · 07-09-2018 12:45pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Kids today might be as hard working as generations before they (I suspect the type of work has changed). But the kids today don’t get the same benefits as generations past.

Things like chances of home ownership, job stability, financial stability in retirement and pensions, not to mention the fact that lots of young people can’t afford to start a family. This means the demands, prospects and rewards for ‘the kids today’ are very different from the past.

Peterson doesn’t spend time discussing those factors, he jumps straight to ‘kids were better in the old days, amiright?’

He talks about a very specific set of things but it’s on no way supposed to be an impartial look at things. It’s about justifying the conclusion that the kids and the lift are wrong.

It’s the intellectual side of the Fox News message. But it’s no more honest.

Again I think this is an interpretation thing. You hear "kids were better in the old days", while I hear "these are the issues that are facing a lot of todays youth". I find it very hard to believe that a clinical psychologist would "blame" kids for who they are or how they've developed. That's all on us grown ups.

Anyway, you say potato, I say potato. I don't think we're going to agree. Shall we settle it with fisticuffs at dawn? Or have a sleep in and let it lie :pac:

markodaly · 07-09-2018 2:00pm

Nixonbot wrote: »

Glassdoor....eh. Ok. It's not exactly the most reliable or trustworthy thing out there.

If you await my evidence you've not been reading my posts. Waste of time, this is well, well known in the software industry. I'm out.

Just coming back to this point. I offer some evidence and you offer the nonsense, 'the dogs on the street knows it' argument.

You're out alright because you have no argument or proof of your claim.

Skylinehead · 07-09-2018 2:08pm

markodaly wrote: »

Just coming back to this point. I offer some evidence and you offer the nonsense, 'the dogs on the street knows it' argument.

You're out alright because you have no argument or proof of your claim.

If you're not going to read my posts, what's the point?

I'm in the industry, I know people who do and have worked for Amazon and Google, let me know how to turn that into a peer-reviewed scientific journal if that's all you're going to accept.

Coming back to this a month later, weird. Bye now.

markodaly · 07-09-2018 2:14pm

Wibbs wrote: »

See the bit in bold? Again this is not bloody America. Of course any company offering healthcare and other perks people in the rest of the developed world think of as givens is going to fare well.

And who are the best companies or organisations to work for in Ireland? The US multinationals are by far the best, in terms of remuneration and perks. I have worked on both sides of the fence and the US firms are by far the best to work for, in comparison to Irish firms who more often than not treated their employees like indentured servants.

https://ie.indeed.com/Top-Rated-Workplaces/2018-Ireland

Yes, like the American model of "healthcare" is a good one. Not. If you get cancer you hear the tills ringing before the X-ray machines have powered up. If you can afford it. America, the only country in the developed world where life expectancy is going down. You realise the US of A has the fourth widest wealth gap in the developed world, only being beaten out by barely functioning kips like Turkey, Chile and Mexico?

US tech firms are not responsible for US government health care policy. So the point above is not relevant. However, in Ireland, US tech firms almost always offer free health insurance as part of the package. Most Irish companies do not.

If these corporations are so "left" how come they "avoid" tax like the plague, seriously look down on even the sniff of unions and are happy to outsource their operations to third world crapholes where labour is much cheaper?

Your view on what left wing is belongs to the 1950's. Left wing is nothing to do with Marxism anymore. Besides, I didn't know that the criteria of a left winger was wanting to pay more tax.

Irish property and water charges anyone??? Rich Boy Barret and Paul Murphy are capitalists.

markodaly · 07-09-2018 2:20pm

Nixonbot wrote: »

If you're not going to read my posts, what's the point?

I'm in the industry, I know people who do and have worked for Amazon and Google, let me know how to turn that into a peer-reviewed scientific journal if that's all you're going to accept.

Coming back to this a month later, weird. Bye now.

All anecdotal.

I too know people who work in the Industry, both in Amazon and Google, among others and have worked in it myself. The difference is I am not posting opinions based on my own experience, I am posting data and surveys detailing who are the best companies to work for.

You offer nothing but 'the man in the pub told me' type evidence. I think its best that you do go, as your embarrassing, not for the first time with your argument.

Skylinehead · 07-09-2018 2:29pm

markodaly wrote: »

All anecdotal.

And I never claimed otherwise. You're arguing nothing.

alaimacerc · 07-09-2018 2:32pm

markodaly wrote: »

All anecdotal.

I too know people who work in the Industry, both in Amazon and Google, among others and have worked in it myself. The difference is I am not posting opinions based on my own experience, I am posting data and surveys detailing who are the best companies to work for.

You offer nothing but 'the man in the pub told me' type evidence. I think its best that you do go, as your embarrassing, not for the first time with your argument.

Your "data", offered in rebuttal of the "US tech firms have long hours" claim is people's opinions on glassdoor, recommending (for unspecified and presumably aggregate) assorted US tech firms. But people directly stating that said firms have long hours, in as many words -- and lots of those on glassdoor too, as well as the ones you've been given directly are "anecdotal".

Sounds a bit straw bias and confirmation man to me, have to say.

alaimacerc · 07-09-2018 2:48pm

markodaly wrote: »

Your view on what left wing is belongs to the 1950's. Left wing is nothing to do with Marxism anymore.

Guess that makes sense, in the parallel world where people like Sharyl Attkisson can claim than Info Wars is centre-right, the Washington Post is Hard Left, and the political centre is round about Reason magazine and Military Times.

If you're gonna lurch to the right, your view on what's "centre" is inevitably going to be subject to considerable revisionism.

07-09-2018 3:45pm

markodaly wrote: »

And who are the best companies or organisations to work for in Ireland? The US multinationals are by far the best, in terms of remuneration and perks. I have worked on both sides of the fence and the US firms are by far the best to work for, in comparison to Irish firms who more often than not treated their employees like indentured servants.

That's way too sweeping a statement to be taken seriously. Do you know anybody who works for Google, for example? The only people I've ever met in Google say that career progression is impossible unless you're willing to eat, breathe, and (preferably not sleep) for the company. I have a close friend in one of those companies who works as a manager, and is worked harder than anybody I know outside of the healthcare professions! At least healthcare professionals get
paid for doing work out-of-hours and during their holidays.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to be worked like that, some people clearly love it. But it would never happen in my workplace, a UK company in Ireland which is actually a really positive place to work.

Yes, these are just anecdotes, but I'm just really surprised to hear anybody come out with such a rosy view of US-MNC workplaces. Yoga mats and free lunches are all well and good, but not all of us want to live for the company we work for.

markodaly · 07-09-2018 3:49pm

Nixonbot wrote: »

And I never claimed otherwise. You're arguing nothing.

Ha, that's great. I'm the only person bothering back up my points. You on the other hand just offer pub talk rebuttals.

markodaly · 07-09-2018 3:57pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

Your "data", offered in rebuttal of the "US tech firms have long hours" claim is people's opinions on glassdoor, recommending (for unspecified and presumably aggregate) assorted US tech firms. But people directly stating that said firms have long hours, in as many words -- and lots of those on glassdoor too, as well as the ones you've been given directly are "anecdotal".

Sounds a bit straw bias and confirmation man to me, have to say.

If the sole metric to measure how good a place of work is, is the hours you work, then everyone is better off in the Public Service with their low 30-odd hour weak and bountiful sick leave.
Yet, anyone I know working there states that its a soul-destroying work environment.

No one has ever, here or elsewhere made the argument that the Public Service is the best place to work in Ireland. That tells you all you need to know about that 'metric'.

Besides, I never disputed the hours of work, merely stated that people are happier in these companies on average than other companies.

markodaly · 07-09-2018 4:02pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

Guess that makes sense, in the parallel world where people like Sharyl Attkisson can claim than Info Wars is centre-right, the Washington Post is Hard Left, and the political centre is round about Reason magazine and Military Times.

If you're gonna lurch to the right, your view on what's "centre" is inevitably going to be subject to considerable revisionism.

Yes, because globalization and internationalism don't exit? Modern economies and labour markets are very different to the 1870's. There are no Marxists anymore, just wanna be hipsters who want to be rebellious and contrarian.

markodaly · 07-09-2018 4:04pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

not all of us want to live for the company we work for.

That is fine, its a free country and you can take your skillset to another company that suits your needs and wants. All I am stating, which is backed up by the facts, that US multinationals are where Irish employees feel the happiest.

Wibbs · 07-09-2018 4:11pm

markodaly wrote: »

All I am stating, which is backed up by the facts, that US multinationals are where Irish employees feel the happiest.

and yet these happiest employees make up the highest staff turnover in the corporate world.

07-09-2018 4:22pm

markodaly wrote: »

All I am stating, which is backed up by the facts, that US multinationals are where Irish employees feel the happiest.

Are you basing this all on the Indeed/ Glassdoor reviews or..?

Because if you're relying on a self-selecting survey where larger firms have a numerical advantage, that's obviously *hugely* problematical....

El_Duderino 09 · 07-09-2018 4:45pm

xckjoo wrote: »

Again I think this is an interpretation thing. You hear "kids were better in the old days", while I hear "these are the issues that are facing a lot of todays youth". I find it very hard to believe that a clinical psychologist would "blame" kids for who they are or how they've developed. That's all on us grown ups.

Anyway, you say potato, I say potato. I don't think we're going to agree. Shall we settle it with fisticuffs at dawn? Or have a sleep in and let it lie :pac:

I don’t think he outlines the issues facing the youth unless he’s focusing on blaming the left.

Anyway, Dawn is far too early for fisticuffs. It’ll have to be a sleep in tomorrow and Sunday is the Sabbath so we’ll just have to forget it and enjoy our weekends.

Brian? · 07-09-2018 6:11pm

markodaly wrote: »

That is fine, its a free country and you can take your skillset to another company that suits your needs and wants. All I am stating, which is backed up by the facts, that US multinationals are where Irish employees feel the happiest.

No. That’s not all you were stating. You were claiming Tech companies are left wing because they treat their staff well. It’s complete nonsense, so you’re moving the goalposts.

Brian? · 07-09-2018 6:12pm

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, because globalization and internationalism don't exit? Modern economies and labour markets are very different to the 1870's. There are no Marxists anymore, just wanna be hipsters who want to be rebellious and contrarian.

“There are no Marxists anymore”- seriously now. Are you smoking crack?

Giraffe Box · 07-09-2018 6:24pm

Brian? wrote: »

“There are no Marxists anymore”- seriously now. Are you smoking crack?

Agreed.
If there are no Marxists anymore then Jordan Peterson and his army of individuals can stand at ease.
What's the problem?

HappyAsLarE · 07-09-2018 6:58pm

Life is too short to dedicate it to a huge multinational corporation.

I cut my teeth at one of the big famous ones, learnt a lot, and got a little sucked into believing it was a “great place to work”.

It’s only looking back with more life experience that I can see through a lot of their BS.

HappyAsLarE · 07-09-2018 7:04pm

Question:

Has anyone here that would lean well Left been made to take a step back and deeply consider their political views because of Peterson’s criticism of the far Left?

07-09-2018 7:19pm

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Question:

Has anyone here that would lean well Left been made to take a step back and deeply consider their political views because of Peterson’s criticism of the far Left?

Yes. I think he has a lot of value to contribute to how the left views itself.

His views on how society can (or cannot reasonably) address 'intersectionality' seem to have a lot of merit. His critique of the Left as being weak in recognising its own excesses and inconsistencies are also worth listening to. As (I think) he has said himself, if you're not willing to listen to the gaping holes in your own argument, you're going to lose the argument.

I think he's almost pathologically and excessively cynical towards ("cultural") marxism, to the point where he doesn't seem to be able to critique it completely honestly, so he occasionally fails to take his own advice. I also get the impression I wouldn't much like JP as an individual level, but of what relevance is that? None.

We shouldn't immediately rush to the defensive, any time our ideas are challenged. I have often found my beliefs challenged by JP, and that's why he's well worth listening to.

Having said that, I've read '12 Rules for Life', and found it to be an utter waste of 24 quid. If anyone is thinking of buying it, and expecting it to change their lives, i'd say you'd have better luck with a dozen scratchcards.

Brian? · 07-09-2018 10:03pm

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Question:

Has anyone here that would lean well Left been made to take a step back and deeply consider their political views because of Peterson’s criticism of the far Left?

No. Because I already had issues with the people on the Left that Peterson criticises.

I don’t think the ideas of “cultural Marxism” Peterson harps on about are anywhere near as pervasive on the Left as Peterson believes they are.

Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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