Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

Grayson wrote: »

Loads of adults get dressed up for halloween.

As for the bolded bit, are you saying that when a Saudi woman wears a hijab she's rejecting Saudi culture? Because that's a bit mad.

I'm not going to attempt to explain why a woman wears a Burka. I'm sure there's many reasons and it can vary from woman to woman. I'm also sure it probably doesn't have anything to do with a rejection of themselves. Maybe for one or two but not most.
The one thing I'm 100% certain of is that neither you nor I can speak as to why every woman who wears a burka does so.

At Halloween
A festival of dressing up. Of customer and masks. Where grown ups give kids sweets.
Its a brutal comparison in fairness.



We're talking about burkas in Dublin (And presumably inter alia Ireland)
Couldn't give a toss what/how they dress in Saudi.

They're not rejecting themselves. They're rejecting you. Or in other words, it's a barrier to prevent you/them having contact with each other. Why they do it? No idea. But that's with it is. A barrier to prevent contact.

If it was so important to express their faith, why it wear it the whole time? Why only remove it at home?
Because proponents of it regard women as chattel. Property of the men of the family. And it's the most regressive, fundamentalist Muslims that wear it.


We were in Milan a few years ago. We werent let into a catholic church because the wife had shorts and shoulders uncovered. Id shorts. Wasnt a bit offended. If you want to come into a place, you should respect the "house rules."

If we shouldnt be prescriptive of what people are allowed wear , should we also allow people to wear as little as they want?
You'd be ok with a man moving his lawn buck naked next door to a school.
Where are your lines drawn?

Danzy wrote: »

It is one that has been lost years ago in many Mosques across Europe and with good reason to suspect in Dublin and reason to suspect lost to a greater level than most other parts of Europe, given we had the highest per capita rate of people going abroad to fight in Islamist orgs. from Europe.

In Britain, over half of Mosques are controlled by fundamentalist groups, with the % in England higher again.

It is not just back street Mosques or a rented hall on Friday, it is main Mosques, ones that cater to thousands at a time.

.....

Look at Didsbury Mosque in Manchester, capacity 1000, preachers there calling for armed Jihad, that is not unusual, Channel Four said it readily found extremist material in Mosques and their book stores. ....

When the Police and establishment in Britain did not start arresting people for calling for the murder of Salman Rushdie, even if it meant charging thousands, it lost the initiative.

....

Grayson wrote: »

I know a hell of a lot about islam. I also know a lot of Muslims. I've even lived in a muslim country. I have a feeling you know feck all except for what you've read on rightwing sites.

I believe that you probably do know a lot about Islam and are a reasonable person. (Although I haven't been keeping track of your voting record on these kind of issues ... )

But...

Why don't you respond to something like the points in the post above quoted instead of brushing past them?

Responding to actual provable concerns might foster better understanding.

I am kind of tired of ending up feeling like some right wing monster for having real concerns about fundamentalist religion being fostered surreptitiously in liberal societies, and enabled because we don't want to offend. The evidence regularly surfaces about extremist preaching and materials and online groups and quiet jihad. You know this. How do you respond?

But you know, that is only part of what bothers me. I also hate to think of the women and girls living medieval lives just below the radar of us regular western people - being dispatched abroad for arranged marriages, having to wear restrictive clothing, being removed from school before finishing, not fulfilling their dreams, etc. And even if it is a small number, every one of those invisible people is one too many.

How do you respond also to fatwas issued against Rushdie or Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

bubblypop wrote: »

Yes there are, it's come up time & time again on these anti Islam threads.

It's not an ''anti-Islam'' thread though there may be a few extreme voices. It really isn't and should not be dismissed so easily. I appreciate a great deal about Islam personally, I love the poetry of Rumi, Kabir, Attar and Ibn' Arabi, and am presently making my way (albeit very slowly!) through the entire works of Rene Guenon who was a famous western convert to Islam, and whose opinions I find very enlightening. I think many people who worry about extremist theocratic Islam have a good appreciation and respect for regular noble Muslims and, for some, even their faith.

Danzy wrote: »

( I always view it as having being in most of the world much stricter in adherence though that most other faiths. Added after Malayalm thanked post, so they may or may not agree with this line).

They might have some competition with the Jains (Kidding)

Even Morocco bans the Burqa...gave the stores 48 hours to get rid of all stock. Because Salafists were posing a threat to the moderate government, and this was one way to nip extremism in the bud. Maybe people on the ground in these countries who don't have the luxury of armchair debate might know a thing or two we don't about this area, I reckon.

Grayson wrote: »

You're taking the comparison out of context. Someone said the burka affects the ability to identify someone (Or at least that was one of the ways to interpret it as it wasn't quite clear). I said that other things such as halloween do too. I'm not saying that they are the same. I'm saying that when it comes to the ability to identify someone there are plenty of times when we can't, like halloween, but no-one is asking to ban all of those.

They don't wear it at home because that's the rule. The same goes for amish and jewish women. The same goes for Sikhs and their turbans. they're not worn 24 7.

As for whether or not it's a rejection, I don't think so, but I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole because...

....It doesn't matter.

We can't start making laws dictating what people should wear based on culture. We can't start drafting in laws based on culture full stop. We draft laws based on public safety and well being. And as I've said, a law banning the burka is as stupid as a law mandating it. We shouldn't even go there. It's a bad law to make

That's what matters. The fact that we shouldn't start drafting in culture laws at all.

We already have laws though regarding dress.
You cant walk down O'Connell street airing your meat and two veg.
We've always had laws.


I'm not as put out with the ID thing as others, although it is a consideration.
Its the rejection "rabbit hole" I've the issue with. If you reject me/My culture, I see no reason to have to accept Islamism. I'm not better than you so I dont feel obliged to be the bigger more understanding one. The more tolerant.
I'm big into reciprocity!

Can you see the Jewish womens faces? The Amish? The Hindu?
(BTW, as per earlier posts, If you want to wear a hijab, work away.

A burka is a symbol of something very repressive, very backward & considering those who insist on it, something very anti western enlightened values. It speaks of a place ive no wish to send anyone.

We'd enough of religious repression in this country. Ironically, looking at some posters, you'd think we have learned nothing.

I suppose the Iraqi women throwing them off when ISIS were pushed out of their villages is propaganda? It looks like they didn't want to wear them.

If you had a daughter, and she met a chap who insisted she wear one. How would you feel?

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

or, you know, they want to interact with it on their terms. You seem to think there is something wrong with that.

Let them
Where its normal.
E.g. Saudi. Yemen. Etc.