Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

02-09-2018 09:28PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't know what you're trying to suggest... You do know gay people are born that way right?

Yep. You know that being Muslim is a choice? Must be fairly sh*tty to be Muslim and gay. They'd be killed if they went to the wrong country simply for being themselves.

Sheeps · 02-09-2018 09:30PM

What other non muslim items of clothing would the OP like to ban also?

dennispenn · 02-09-2018 09:31PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd not be nearly so sure D. Just like Catholics ridin before marriage wearing johnnies and on the pill and plenty of Gay catholics with it, I've known Muslims who drink like fish, do a fair bit o ridin themselves outside the marital bed* and come Friday are done up all religious like, prostrating in the mosque. Gay men and women attending prayers like "Good Muslims"? Wouldn't shock me in the least. It would shock me more if there weren't. Cognitive dissonance, hypocrisy, or just simply fitting in because it's a genuine human comfort has no particular creed, seed or generation.

*one thing I've yet to see is eating pork. That of all things seems really beyond the Pale. The Jewish folks I've known are generally less kosher on that score. Pork is rebel territory mind you, but the other stuff...

The people you know that drink like fish probably aren't Muslims,but would probably come out as gay to their families before saying that they are not Muslims because of the apostate threat that hangs over them.

What sect of Muslims are these friends?

02-09-2018 09:33PM

Omackeral wrote: »

Yep. You know that being Muslim is a choice? Must be fairly sh*tty to be Muslim and gay. They'd be killed if they went to the wrong country simply for being themselves.

What's your point?
Do you think Muslim gay people should deny who they are?

02-09-2018 09:37PM

bubblypop wrote: »

What's your point?
Do you think Muslim gay people should deny who they are?

Definitely yes... if they happen to find themselves in an Islamic country such as Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia or Qatar, where they'd legally be allowed to be executed for simply being who they are.

02-09-2018 09:39PM

Omackeral wrote: »

Definitely yes... if they happen to find themselves in an Islamic country such as Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia or Qatar, where they'd legally be allowed to be executed for simply being who they are.

So, that's a problem with those countries. & I agree. I could maybe end up in prison etc if I was living in one of those countries & did something against their laws. Which I don't necessarily agree with, BTW.
But it still stands that there are gay Muslim, of course. Why wouldn't there be?

dennispenn · 02-09-2018 09:44PM

bubblypop wrote: »

What's your point?
Do you think Muslim gay people should deny who they are?

You are probably asking the wrong person.

The Islamic cultural center is the place to ask this, the one in clonskeagh.

Irish people are torrent people,in general.

Most Islamic countries will not tolerate homosexuality or apostasy. Punishment is more than a fine,if you escape with your life you will have done well.

There was a poll done in the UK a couple of year's ago,cant recall who did the poll, channel 4 I think. It asked Muslims about gay people, and the majority of them wanted them thrown in jail.

Think about this for a moment. They didn't just see homosexuality as a sin they actually wanted them in jail.

Wibbs · 02-09-2018 09:44PM

dennispenn wrote: »

The people you know that drink like fish probably aren't Muslims,but would probably come out as gay to their families before saying that they are not Muslims because of the apostate threat that hangs over them.

What sect of Muslims are these friends?

Well they've not been friends as such. General acquaintances to more close acquaintances(I personally think of friends as more than that over time). They were all Sunni, save for one Shia Iranian. Libyans, Afghanis, Pakistani(though more Afghani. The cultural border can fluid, depending on area), one Jordanian and an Egyptian if memory serves. All but one was/is male. They varied, as people will, on how adherent they were. There were cultural differences. I found the Afghan dudes the most easy going funny enough and against expectation. Bloody genuine too. Extremely family and brotherhood orientated. Then again with all I got the overall general impression that me being a bloke was a big factor.

02-09-2018 09:46PM

dennispenn wrote: »

You are probably asking the wrong person.

The Islamic cultural center is the place to ask this, the one in clonskeagh.

Irish people are torrent people,in general.

Most Islamic countries will not tolerate homosexuality or apostasy. Punishment is more than a fine,if you escape with your life you will have done well.

There was a poll done in the UK a couple of year's ago,cant recall who did the poll, channel 4 I think. It asked Muslims about gay people, and the majority of them wanted them thrown in jail.

Think about this for a moment. They didn't just see homosexuality as a sin they actually wanted them in jail.

I assume then you are OK with Muslim people coming here seeking asylum if they are gay?

Wibbs · 02-09-2018 09:46PM

dennispenn wrote: »

There was a poll done in the UK a couple of year's ago,cant recall who did the poll, channel 4 I think. It asked Muslims about gay people, and the majority of them wanted them thrown in jail.

Think about this for a moment. They didn't just see homosexuality as a sin they actually wanted them in jail.

That was the survey I linked earlier. They didn't say that. They did say they thought being gay shouldn't be legal and that gay people shouldn't be teachers of kids.

02-09-2018 09:52PM

Wibbs wrote: »

That was the survey I linked earlier. They didn't say that. They did say they thought being gay shouldn't be legal and that gay people shouldn't be teachers of kids.

And tbf, I only had a quick look at that poll, but it was of 1000 Muslim's.
No indication of how they picked the people for the poll, or where they picked them from? ( I could be wrong, I just had a quick look)
There are 2.8 or something million Muslim's living in the UK, 1000 is hardly indicative of the whole population.
& yes I know how polls work.

02-09-2018 10:01PM

bubblypop wrote: »

So, that's a problem with those countries. & I agree. I could maybe end up in prison etc if I was living in one of those countries & did something against their laws. Which I don't necessarily agree with, BTW.
But it still stands that there are gay Muslim, of course. Why wouldn't there be?

What are they doing that's against the law, though? Just being something isn't doing something. Sad state of affairs. I just wish religion, all religion, would fcuk off to be honest. It's poison.

02-09-2018 10:09PM

Omackeral wrote: »

What are they doing that's against the law, though? Just being something isn't doing something. Sad state of affairs. I just wish religion, all religion, would fcuk off to be honest. It's poison.

I agree, they are not doing anything wrong but we can't control other countries laws.
I agree with your thoughts on religion, personally I'm atheist, but I do recognise & understand other peoples right to their faith.

dennispenn · 02-09-2018 10:14PM

bubblypop wrote: »

And tbf, I only had a quick look at that poll, but it was of 1000 Muslim's.
No indication of how they picked the people for the poll, or where they picked them from? ( I could be wrong, I just had a quick look)
There are 2.8 or something million Muslim's living in the UK, 1000 is hardly indicative of the whole population.
& yes I know how polls work.

It was channel 4 who did the survey. You will not get a more liberal media outlet than channel 4.

dennispenn · 02-09-2018 10:26PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I assume then you are OK with Muslim people coming here seeking asylum if they are gay?

I think we can cut straight to the chase here and say that i have a huge problem when 73% ? Of asylum applications have been rejected but the appeals system allows them to stay for what seems like for years and often is as they bed in roots here in this glorious social welfare haven country.

Do I have a problem with gay people? 100% no. Absolutely not. But I do have a problem with bogus asylum seekers.

02-09-2018 10:29PM

dennispenn wrote: »

I think we can cut straight to the chase here and say that i have a huge problem when 73% ? Of asylum applications have been rejected but the appeals system allows them to stay for what seems like for years and often is as they bed in roots here in this glorious social welfare haven country.

Do I have a problem with gay people? 100% no. Absolutely not. But I do have a problem with bogus asylum seekers.

I agree, the asylum system here is terrible. Anyone coming seeking asylum should be dealt with in a matter of months, at most. Germany can do it in weeks.
Although what this has to do with Muslim women wearing a Burka?

dennispenn · 02-09-2018 10:31PM

Omackeral wrote: »

What are they doing that's against the law, though? Just being something isn't doing something. Sad state of affairs. I just wish religion, all religion, would fcuk off to be honest. It's poison.

Ah now, tis a long time if ever a Catholic chopped off someone's head or threw them off a building for being what he or she is.

dennispenn · 02-09-2018 10:34PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I agree, the asylum system here is terrible. Anyone coming seeking asylum should be dealt with in a matter of months, at most. Germany can do it in weeks.
Although what this has to do with Muslim women wearing a Burka?

Nothing at all. But was just answering your question.

Burkas have no place in a civilised western country. ðŸ‘

02-09-2018 10:40PM

dennispenn wrote: »

Nothing at all. But was just answering your question.

Burkas have no place in a civilised western country. ðŸ‘

I don't believe a civilized country anywhere has the right to force people to either wear or not wear any particular clothing.

dennispenn · 02-09-2018 10:46PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't believe a civilized country anywhere has the right to force people to either wear or not wear any particular clothing.

Not even for security reasons?

Even some Islamic countries won't allow burkas because of security risks.

02-09-2018 10:53PM

dennispenn wrote: »

Not even for security reasons?

Even some Islamic countries won't allow burkas because of security risks.

I believe banks, airports etc have security issues with Burkas & niqabs, & yes if required the ladies should remove them, most do I think.
But I don't believe in bans on clothing, If I want to wear a balaclava, or a scarf up over my face, or a hoody up with a baseball cap on then I think that is my right.
Individual companies can make rules for their own buildings, if I don't like them, then I don't go there, but making it illegal? A step too far.
I don't think the government should ban me from wearing them!

dennispenn · 02-09-2018 11:02PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I believe banks, airports etc have security issues with Burkas & niqabs, & yes if required the ladies should remove them, most do I think.
But I don't believe in bans on clothing, If I want to wear a balaclava, or a scarf up over my face, or a hoody up with a baseball cap on then I think that is my right.
Individual companies can make rules for their own buildings, if I don't like them, then I don't go there, but making it illegal? A step too far.
I don't think the government should ban me from wearing them!

Yeah I strongly disagree. Having someone with a face veil sitting on a train carriage,sitting in a mall With a rug sack,heading into a musical arena,in a courtroom,airport. ... walking around in public. ... its all the same to me. There is no need,and as I said earlier,is NOT required by any religious law.

Sweetemotion · 02-09-2018 11:05PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I believe banks, airports etc have security issues with Burkas & niqabs, & yes if required the ladies should remove them, most do I think.
But I don't believe in bans on clothing, If I want to wear a balaclava, or a scarf up over my face, or a hoody up with a baseball cap on then I think that is my right.
Individual companies can make rules for their own buildings, if I don't like them, then I don't go there, but making it illegal? A step too far.
I don't think the government should ban me from wearing them!

I don't get this balaclava, hoody or scraf reference but it's always used in these debates, none of these are associated with religious views and women aren't socially expected to wear them.

02-09-2018 11:31PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't believe a civilized country anywhere has the right to force people to either wear or not wear any particular clothing.

Except, of course, that all countries do so. Hence the nudity or decency laws. Just as most "civilized" countries have laws against the incitement of hatred, which would prevent you from wearing a Brownshirt uniform in an "inappropriate" setting.

Freedom of expression does not come without certain constraints.

02-09-2018 11:40PM

dennispenn wrote: »

Ah now, tis a long time if ever a Catholic chopped off someone's head or threw them off a building for being what he or she is.

True they haven't, although Catholics have been involved in many "dubious" or outright wrong activities due to the nature of their faith. While they're not (currently) on the same level as Islam, their past shows the same potential for violence, and there are some very strong enclaves of extremely devout Christians spread across the world. Opus Deus has received a lot of criticism over the years for excessive/questionable behavior, and while they're not chopping heads, I wouldn't put it past them should they feel themselves justified for doing so. Remember, that religious people can get justification from either a voice nobody else hears, or due to a literal personal interpretation from 2k+ year old book written in a different language but translated/edited over the years.

The idea is that all religions should be banned equally. It combats the idea that any are gaining preferential treatment and removes the cause that divides so many people.... Religion should be a personal/private expression among other of the faithful, but not in the public domain.

Chris_Heilong · 03-09-2018 02:34AM

If every EU country follows this then it would be one step further towards the kind of free and fair society most people want to live in. There was a time when China and Japan used to tie women feet to prevent them from growing as it was their culture that women with small feet were more elegant and a sign of high class, lucky for all women in these countries some people in power decided this was a barbaric tradition and it was fazed out, Sometimes culture and tradition is just wrong.

Malayalam · 03-09-2018 05:35AM

If it is so regressive to ban full face covering in public, then how come...

Belgium banned them as of 2015. Ban upheld by European Court of Human Rights 2017.
Austria banned them in 2017.
Bulgaria banned them in 2016.
Denmark banned them in 2018.
France banned them from shools in 2004, and from all public places in 2010. Ban upheld by European Court in 2014.
Germany banned them for soldiers and all state workers in 2017. Wider ban under discussion. ”Show your face. The full covering is not permissible and should be banned." ~ Angela Merkel.
Latvia banned them in 2016.
The Netherlands bannd them in 2012.
Norway banned them in schools and universities in 2018.
Switzerland banned them in 2016.
Partial bans in Italy since 2010.
Partial Bans in Catalonia, Spain.
Banned in Chad, Cameroon, Congo-Brazzaville, Gabon, parts of Niger (as a reaction to Boko Haram and radical Islam)
Egypt bans full veil in places of education and is considering ban in all public places. It this Muslim country the full veil is believed to be contrary to secularism, associated with Salafist extremism and not an integral part of Islam.
Morocco banned the burqa in 2017.
Syria banned full face veils in universities in 2010.
Quebec, Canada bans full face coverings under Bill 62, 2017
China bans the burqa in some areas.

Several other countries/areas are considering banning full face veils, unless used for specific purposes such as weather protection on a motorbike etc.

The countries listed from Europe are hardly bastions of fascism. They also have a lot more experience than Ireland regarding issues presented regarding full veils in public. The Muslim countries listed have seen the link in their societies between outer symbols and extremist ideology, and recognise that full face veils are not inherently Islamic at all.
I don't see the problem with following their lead.

pauldla · 03-09-2018 06:14AM

dennispenn wrote: »

Ah now, tis a long time if ever a Catholic chopped off someone's head or threw them off a building for being what he or she is.

Since at least 1994, anyhow...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanase_Seromba

...though admittedly they weren't thrown off buildings, the building was thrown on them.

CruelCoin · 03-09-2018 07:45AM

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't believe a civilized country anywhere has the right to force people to either wear or not wear any particular clothing.

For the sake of social cohesion, it's best if people can interact with each other, no?

Nothing wrong with the Hijab, al-amira, shayla, khimar, chador etc as they don't cover the face. Nothing wrong with those. Most Irish grannies dress that way anyway.
But the Niqab and the burka can do with a ban. Socially restrictive and repressive.

Danzy · 03-09-2018 08:58AM

The Working Class are rising up in Chemnitz, no longer willing to be stabbed, raped and robbed so that their self perceived betters in the modern Left and establishment can indulge mad flights of fancy.

By pretending that these people are far right or even right wing, it is just another, in a long line, attempt to stifle debate, stifle opposition.

Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

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