Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

Odhinn · 02-09-2018 06:37PM

Wibbs wrote: »

We do. Posters get banned all the time for breaking them.

That doesn't explain why you think we're no better or worse.

Never mind that it's highly debatable. For all the "multitude of competing cultural and moral standards" in Europe there is a recognisably "European" culture overall. Even though there are more competing cultural and moral standards within Europe. Democracy, church and state separation, increasing equality to different demographics, free press, narrower wealth divide, large scale social welfare systems, for the most part centre left in politics, even dictatorships tend to have short lives and is constantly evolving and has been for centuries. The Middle East on the other hand is much more a collection of cultures consisting of religious authority, strongman politics, higher corruption, larger wealth divide, less equality, a less free press, with a lot of censorship and an increasing tide of religious and political fundamentalism. And damn near a thousand years of stasis on those scores. The "best" nations in the ME are not utter crapholes on the surface, because they have oil and we want it. Even then it's a very expensive petrodollar funded veneer over some well dodgy cultural and societal practices. Most of them would still have slavery if it were not for the Western World's beady eye. Even then you don't want to be a non White migrant worker in any of those countries.

Yeah, I think I'll take Europe and European values and codes of conduct thanks very much, and yes consider them far superior overall. There's a few good reasons why the flood of immigrants into Europe aren't heading for nations filled with their "fellow Muslims". They know they're crapholes. And of course they also know any of the richer ones would turn their boats around and let them drown. Jordan is one of the vanishingly few in that part of the world that extended a humanitarian hand.

Except lebanon with 2 million.

And Turkey with 3.5 million

And the UAE with about 200,000

And Iraq with 200,000

And Kuwait with about 150,000.

And Sudan with 100,000

And yemen with 100,000.

And Egypt with about 100,000.

And Saudi with in and around 400-500,000.

(Figures for Refugees of the Syrian civil war)

But yeah "vanisingly rare"

Wibbs · 02-09-2018 07:09PM

Well I knew you of all posters would baulk at that and toe your right on party line. Might do you some good to actually look at the figures involved. . Most of the ME countries aren't even signatories to the major international refugee conventions.

Take the UAE. There were already over 100,000 Syrians working there before the crisis. The number they've actually taken in since the shit hit the fan? They've agreed to allow in fifteen thousand over a five year period from 2016. Jaysus that's big of them.

Kuwait? Again like the UAE they already had 100,000 odd Syrians working there before the crisis. That's how your figures are padded. Funny how their own newspapers had been wondering why they're doing sweet feck all. That was 2015, this is 2018 where the same wonderful Kuwaiti's are now going to arrest and deport all Syrian and Yemeni refugees. They've already started handing them back to the Syrians

Many Muslim commentators have noted the decidedly lacklustre response of the richest Arab states, only too happy for Europe to take up their slack. Oh but they'll spend billions on mosques for them when they get here. 200 of them so far.

Others on your list include many(Turkey, Lebanon, Sudan, Egypt) who are little more than holding stations before the "refugees" make the break for the promised land of Europe.

Numbers flooding into Europe, that Europe is housing and feeding? Millions. Just over five million since 08 asylum applications.

So yeah, try again oul son.

Odhinn · 02-09-2018 07:12PM

Wibbs wrote: »

............
So yeah, try again oul son.

No need, as I was right the first time.

And less of the condescension please.

Wibbs · 02-09-2018 07:14PM

Odhinn wrote: »

No need, as I was right the first time.

No you were wrong. Demonstrably so. I included links from people on the ground, you just stated numbers. I can post more links from local and independent sources including from any number of neutral, even "left wing" sources. No Nazi sources required, so you needn't fret there. So you are at best misinformed.

Odhinn · 02-09-2018 07:16PM

Wibbs wrote: »

No you w(........) are at best misinformed.

You dismissing them as "holding stations" is not a fact, its your tired opinion.

Wibbs · 02-09-2018 07:23PM

Odhinn wrote: »

You dismissing them as "holding stations" is not a fact, its your tired opinion.

Oh so avoid the uncomfortable facts about UAE, SA and Kuwait that show your figures to be a nonsense and go for that angle?

OK I'll play... Here's but one map of the refugee routes into Europe.

Which countries are the conduits? Oh look.... Turkey, Lebanon and Egypt, along with Libya, Morocco and Algeria.

Odhinn · 02-09-2018 07:26PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh so avoid t(.............) Algeria.

Wow - some of them went through a country or two to get into Europe. I take it all back now, it's clearly a muslamic invasion.

Wibbs · 02-09-2018 07:33PM

Odhinn wrote: »

Wow - some of them went through a country or two to get into Europe. I take it all back now, it's clearly a muslamic invasion.

So you're admitting you've no actual cogent response? No comeback with facts? No answers to Kuwait rounding the refugees up and deporting them? No answers to the paltry 15,000 the UAE are saying they'll take in over a five year period?

Basically your initial list and numbers involved was a nonsense and I showed that in the case of a few of them. I can bring to bear more sources on the rest of them if you like, including internal sources from the ME and the countries on your list.

But no, in the face of those pesky things called facts, you're already bringing out the "muslamic invasion" stuff in lieu of reasoned debate? *slow handclap*

teticuk · 02-09-2018 07:48PM

meh

02-09-2018 07:55PM

Wibbs wrote: »

No doubt you believe in gender and sexual equality and freedom? OK then what if your Irish born and bred neighbour considers these abhorrent concepts that have no place in society and is a major homophobe and chauvinist. Would you blindly accept and respect them and their "differences"? I doubt it and you would be right. So why blindly accept a non Irish born and bred neighbour who feels the same, just because it's based on their culture?
.

Accept & respect? I don't think I would be friends with an Irish person who's beliefs were total opposite to mine, & neither would I be friends with any non Irish who's beliefs are totally opposite to mine.
I don't understand what you are trying to say?
Just because I may not be friends with someone doesn't mean I think they should be banned from the country.
Oh, & luckily my Muslim's friends are not homophobic or chauvanistic, much the same as my Irish friends.

Wibbs · 02-09-2018 08:21PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't understand what you are trying to say?
Just because I may not be friends with someone doesn't mean I think they should be banned from the country.

What I am asking BP is why import such attitudes? We've enough of our own, though thankfully that number is dropping. Two generations ago it was a different landscape. But let's look to our neighbour in the UK. A survey was commissioned by Channel 4 into attitudes among British Muslims. Now there were some encouraging positives. Things like a feeling of being "British" and a strong feeling of belonging in their local area(I'd be more interested to see the survey account for how many were living in areas that were predominantly folks with similar backgrounds) were higher than background. There also was a very low level of support for acts of terror. However, over half thought homosexuality shouldn't be legal and nearly half thought Gay people shouldn't be teachers. Nearly a quarter believed Sharia law should be introduced in some areas. Over a third thought wives should always obey their husbands. One in six wanted to live separately to the background culture.

Now this is a population with a generations deep presence in the UK, exposed to the local culture over time. That nearly half didn't think being Gay should be illegal is doubtless part of that, but it still leaves a substantial percentage who stay separate on many points of cultural exchange.

That's before we look at the other social problems that come when numbers of newcomers from a different cultural background reach a certain point. A trend we see in every single European country that has reached that point. Hell, not just European countries. When incoming numbers hit a critical point anywhere and anywhen in history it causes issues, sometimes bloody serious ones. This trend is nothing to do with race or creed either. It's part of the human condition.

My point as always is that why should we in Ireland rush into following the example of other countries to increase the existing social problems we have to deal with?

Roger Hassenforder · 02-09-2018 08:38PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't understand what you are trying to say?
Oh, & luckily my Muslim's friends are not homophobic or chauvanistic, much the same as my Irish friends.

Are you saying your Muslim friends are not homophobic, as your Irish friends are not?

Or they're less?
Or they're more?

Odhinn · 02-09-2018 09:18PM

Wibbs wrote: »

............

But no, in the face of those pesky things called facts, you're already bringing out the "muslamic invasion" stuff in lieu of reasoned debate? *slow handclap*

I've shown that there is considerably more generosity in the area than you want to give credit for.

You have an overinflated view of the profundity of your own commentary.

One eyed Jack · 02-09-2018 09:20PM

Wibbs wrote: »

We do. Posters get banned all the time for breaking them.

Ahh no I don’t mean the rules of Boards, I mean that AH would be quiet as there would be very little discussion if we actually did all share the same values. Instead we have posters who lament the overwhelming left leaning slant they perceive on Boards, and their opposite in equal measure and fervour those who perceive an overwhelming right wing slant on Boards. Depending upon which way you lean you’re inclined to perceive an overwhelming amount of your opposite position.

That doesn't explain why you think we're no better or worse.

Never mind that it's highly debatable. For all the "multitude of competing cultural and moral standards" in Europe there is a recognisably "European" culture overall. Even though there are more competing cultural and moral standards within Europe. Democracy, church and state separation, increasing equality to different demographics, free press, narrower wealth divide, large scale social welfare systems, for the most part centre left in politics, even dictatorships tend to have short lives and is constantly evolving and has been for centuries. The Middle East on the other hand is much more a collection of cultures consisting of religious authority, strongman politics, higher corruption, larger wealth divide, less equality, a less free press, with a lot of censorship and an increasing tide of religious and political fundamentalism. And damn near a thousand years of stasis on those scores. The "best" nations in the ME are not utter crapholes on the surface, because they have oil and we want it. Even then it's a very expensive petrodollar funded veneer over some well dodgy cultural and societal practices. Most of them would still have slavery if it were not for the Western World's beady eye. Even then you don't want to be a non White migrant worker in any of those countries.

When I say we’re no better or no worse, what I mean is that in some ways, depending upon a persons perspective (namely my own in this instance:D), there are ways in which Western society is bloody painful at times, and there are ways it’s great, and I would say the same of the ME - ways it’s great, ways it’s completely horrific, for example I consider myself incredibly fortunate that Christianity abandoned the whole circumcision thing, but I have a pain in my face being bombarded with the constant abuse of science in to further political ideals in the West. It makes me question whether ignorance really is bliss :pac:

In saying that of course I’d likely be on the pigs back either way in either society.

Yeah, I think I'll take Europe and European values and codes of conduct thanks very much, and yes consider them far superior overall. There's a few good reasons why the flood of immigrants into Europe aren't heading for nations filled with their "fellow Muslims". They know they're crapholes. And of course they also know any of the richer ones would turn their boats around and let them drown. Jordan is one of the vanishingly few in that part of the world that extended a humanitarian hand.

In fairness of course there is always going to be economic migration in the hope of a better life, I think is the figure something like 18 million in the last ten years? If I were thinking of enigrating, wanting to escape from an oppressive society would be as good a reason as any to avoid going from the frying pan into the fire so to speak. I’d set my sights as far away as possible. Of course there isn’t anywhere near the same numbers of emigrants from Europe going the other way, but it’s not as though Europe actually is over-run with economic migrants either, certainly not in the kind of numbers that actually present a credible threat to Western or even European societies. We’re far more likely to have turned on each other before Muslims have to get their hands dirty.

02-09-2018 09:24PM

Wibbs wrote: »

What I am asking BP is why import such attitudes? We've enough of our own, though thankfully that number is dropping.

Well, what your suggesting is that we question everyone who wishes to come here on their views on homosexuality etc etc. & then we decide if they suit our views in the same subject. Except that doesn't work, because Irish people have different views about things. Such as Muslims have different views about things.
& who decides 'our views'?

02-09-2018 09:26PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Are you saying your Muslim friends are not homophobic, as your Irish friends are not?

Or they're less?
Or they're more?

Neither my Muslim friends, nor my Irish friends are homophobic.
Like I said I don't tend to be friends with people who's views or beliefs are totally opposite to mine.

dennispenn · 02-09-2018 09:31PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Neither my Muslim friends, nor my Irish friends are homophobic.
Like I said I don't tend to be friends with people who's views or beliefs are totally opposite to mine.

You have actually asked your friends,muslim friends,are they homophobic?

Try asking them how many gay Muslim friends they have and see the reaction? The usual response is that you cannot be gay and a Muslim.

dennispenn · 02-09-2018 09:37PM

Should the burka be banned in Dublin?

The burka, niqab and any other garment that conceals your identity should be banned and has no place in a civilised Western society. If someone wears these head garments it is a statement that says, $#@& off,im not integrating or conforming to your Western ways.

If the head garments are worn in an Islamic out back like Pakistan,its done through tradition or their laws and ways and to that,i really couldn't care less what they wear there as I would never set foot in those kinda places.

quintana76 · 02-09-2018 09:38PM

There is zero chance of Leo and other Irish politicians having the balls to ban the Burka.They are begging to take in economic migrants from the Meditarean just to show off their virtuousness.They just say what they think is uncontroversial and popular (especially when trying to curry favour with the EU and Angela Merkel and more recently Macron). They are all just short-sighted globalist stooges.

02-09-2018 09:50PM

quintana76 wrote: »

There is zero chance of Leo and other Irish politicians having the balls to ban the Burka.They are begging to take in economic migrants from the Meditarean just to show off their virtuousness.They just say what they think is uncontroversial and popular (especially when trying to curry favour with the EU and Angela Merkel and more recently Macron). They are all just short-sighted globalist stooges.

Yes, but IMHO the purpose of discussions like these is to prepare for the future.

There is no guarantee that Irish politicians or the Irish electorate will continue as they have before. The world is changing rather quickly, and there are pressures in Europe today that were relatively minor a decade ago. The same could be said for Ireland with the drastic shift away from Christianity which wouldn't have been suspected (that it would go so far) a decade ago, and yet, it's one of those defining influences today.

Personally, I view these discussions as information. The media isn't going to portray things as they really are, and we, on boards can find a variety of information both for and against any position simply by reading through a thread. That information arms us (if we feel it's worth remembering) for future conversations, or even when it comes to dealing with political or social issues.

Most humans clarify their positions on a topic through conversation/discussion. Admittedly, there is a trend to shut down debates and encouraging people to accept a nicely 'packaged' viewpoint from various groups, but we should continue to discuss issues like these. There could easily be a future Taoiseach reading boards right now, with no actual interest in politics or social issues, but something like this could galvanize them into taking action. Or not. Either way though, an informed electorate is definitely worth encouraging.

02-09-2018 09:55PM

dennispenn wrote: »

You have actually asked your friends,muslim friends,are they homophobic?

Try asking them how many gay Muslim friends they have and see the reaction? The usual response is that you cannot be gay and a Muslim.

I don't need to ask them seeing as they have gay Muslim friends themselves!

Wibbs · 02-09-2018 10:03PM

Odhinn wrote: »

I've shown that there is considerably more generosity in the area than you want to give credit for.

No, you did not. I know you might think just typing it means it's a fact, but it's not. Notice the difference between my posts and yours? *Hint* I backed them up with figures from actual citizens of the countries you mentioned. Unless you think the Kuwait Times is ignorant of numbers in, y'know, Kuwait?

You have an overinflated view of the profundity of your own commentary.

*AH Answer* I try not to fly in the face of public opinion.

*Actual answer* You listed numbers, I stated verifiable sources. Compare and contrast.

bubblypop wrote: »

Well, what your suggesting is that we question everyone who wishes to come here on their views on homosexuality etc etc. & then we decide if they suit our views in the same subject. Except that doesn't work, because Irish people have different views about things. Such as Muslims have different views about things.
& who decides 'our views'?

The culture does and it's a fragile thing. If you were born in the 1940's in Ireland you would almost certainly be homophobic and sexist by your own present measure. I linked to a survey of UK Muslims and it showed over half had opinions that you would consider homophobic and those folks are there for generations. Again - and beyond wishful thinking and sure isn't multiculturalism great - why risk importing the problems of other European nations that have discovered to their cost the downsides? Not just for the "locals", the minorities suffer as bad, actually worse in most cases.

Though TBH BP I'm not so sure any number of links or studies from the best sources will really shift your position. I noted you thanked Odhinn's post about ME aid to refugees, almost certainly because you genuinely want and feel it to be true(as most of us would), but it's not nearly so true as his unverified and picked from a hat figures state as fact. Then again when ideology, or for most folks a genuine hope for a better world gets in the way often the first thing to suffer is realities on the ground.

I would have been a multiculturalist in my youth. I still would be to some degree, if it was based on honesty, facts and an acknowledgement of the human condition, but too often it's not. The "Multiculturalism is Great!" camp can be just as delusional as the "No Foreigners!" camp. Both tend to have confirmation bias going on and only facts that suit get let in the mind's door.

dennispenn · 02-09-2018 10:07PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't need to ask them seeing as they have gay Muslim friends themselves!

I doubt this very much.

Do these gay Muslims go to a mosque,
Read the quran hadith and sunnah?

I wouldn't expect you to know these things but I will tell you that there is no way they lead a gay lifestyle and read the above.

fly_agaric · 02-09-2018 10:15PM

KaneToad wrote: »

What Dublin authority would ban them? The GAA county board??

Dublin city council have learned well they can't fart without permission of the govt. (remember the road signs fiasco if you're old enough like me...), but now they'll start telling people what they can & cannot wear out on the street...:pac:

02-09-2018 10:15PM

dennispenn wrote: »

I doubt this very much.

Do these gay Muslims go to a mosque,
Read the quran hadith and sunnah?

I wouldn't expect you to know these things but I will tell you that there is no way they lead a gay lifestyle and read the above.

Really?
You know more about my Muslim friends then I do?
Guess again. You are holding onto a prejudice view that all Muslims are radical, wear religious clothing & can't think for themselves beyond their religion.
You are wrong.

Edit, tbf I don't ask if they read the Quran, but I don't ask my Christian friends if they read the Bible either!

02-09-2018 10:18PM

Gay Muslim friends is very niche. Any of them in wheelchairs or Travellers? Perhaps trans?

Wibbs · 02-09-2018 10:21PM

dennispenn wrote: »

I wouldn't expect you to know these things but I will tell you that there is no way they lead a gay lifestyle and read the above.

I'd not be nearly so sure D. Just like Catholics ridin before marriage wearing johnnies and on the pill and plenty of Gay catholics with it, I've known Muslims who drink like fish, do a fair bit o ridin themselves outside the marital bed* and come Friday are done up all religious like, prostrating in the mosque. Gay men and women attending prayers like "Good Muslims"? Wouldn't shock me in the least. It would shock me more if there weren't. Cognitive dissonance, hypocrisy, or just simply fitting in because it's a genuine human comfort has no particular creed, seed or generation.

*one thing I've yet to see is eating pork. That of all things seems really beyond the Pale. The Jewish folks I've known are generally less kosher on that score. Pork is rebel territory mind you, but the other stuff...

dennispenn · 02-09-2018 10:22PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Really?
You know more about my Muslim friends then I do?
Guess again. You are holding onto a prejudice view that all Muslims are radical, wear religious clothing & can't think for themselves beyond their religion.
You are wrong.

Not prejudiced at all against your Muslim friends.

I happen to know quite a bit about Islam and Muslims in general. Probably a lot more than you and the average person.

Here's one little factoid. It's not a religious garment. It's simply not but There is a good reason why young girls and grown women wear it and why women's family especially brothers force them to wear it in certain countries.

You can research yourself the predominantly Islamic countries who have banned the veil's.

02-09-2018 10:24PM

Omackeral wrote: »

Gay Muslim friends is very niche. Any of them in wheelchairs or Travellers? Perhaps trans?

I don't know what you're trying to suggest... You do know gay people are born that way right?

02-09-2018 10:27PM

dennispenn wrote: »

Not prejudiced at all against your Muslim friends.

I happen to know quite a bit about Islam and Muslims in general. Probably a lot more than you and the average person.

Here's one little factoid. It's not a religious garment. It's simply not but There is a good reason why young girls and grown women wear it and why women's family especially brothers force them to wear it in certain countries.

You can research yourself the predominantly Islamic countries who have banned the veil's.

Are you Muslim?

Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

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