A question for Atheists...

B.A._Baracus · 18-08-2018 10:30PM

How do ya know you're talking to an atheist?

.... Don't worry. They'll tell you.

indioblack · 18-08-2018 10:32PM

buried wrote: »

I dunno, the Old Testament God didn't shy away from dishing out the grief and trouble to everybody, which is what everybody everywhere has to go through in the end anyways.

This man has more of the fire and brimstone in his belief. He said my disbelief would have consequences - so I debated with him.
It wasn't acrimonious. We're friends as well as workmates.

brightspark · 18-08-2018 10:33PM

indioblack wrote: »

Fair enough - although we were debating the existence of God.
Good post.

No we were originally debating why humans believe in God

"If religion is all make believe and nonsense then why does nature allow humans to have such faith in the first place?"

indioblack · 18-08-2018 10:35PM

brightspark wrote: »

No we were originally debating why humans believe in God

"If religion is all make believe and nonsense then why does nature allow humans to have such faith in the first place?"

I meant the debate I had with the man I mentioned in my post.

buried · 18-08-2018 10:37PM

brightspark wrote: »

Assuming he isn't offering up human sacrifices etc., just why do you feel you need to rob him of a mental support he has had all his life??

It's a tough life, people need all the help they can get mentally as well as physically.

I don't believe in "God", but I sometimes envy those who do, it would take some of the pain away..

You can create your own God for yourself. I like to follow the Moon, always want to see a new one when I can, always like to go outside and see it when its there in all its glory. The ancients believed it was a God/Goddess, whether it was called Luna, Celine all of that. Worshipping a God is basically looking up to a higher power, longer lasting than ourselves, that you can awe at. The moon isn't a bad option to fill that need. And its actually there too.

buried · 18-08-2018 10:39PM

indioblack wrote: »

This man has more of the fire and brimstone in his belief. He said my disbelief would have consequences - so I debated with him.
It wasn't acrimonious. We're friends as well as workmates.

What does he say about the New Testament version?

beveragelady · 18-08-2018 10:40PM

God is omnipotent.
God is good.
Babies die of starvation .

The third statement is true. That means one of the other two definitely isn't.

The above reasoning is very simple. You will not convince me that believers have not arrived at it themselves, decided not to think too hard about it, and just keep pretending like everybody else.

Anyway, back to the point. The story of human evolution is the story of an evolving society.

In our ape-like days we migrated from trees to veld. We needed to see over tall grass so we stood up. this left our hands free so we picked things up. We began to master complicated tasks, so our brains grew. Giving birth to something with a giant head is dangerous, so we gave birth to half-formed helpless blobs that need round-the-clock care for years. In order to provide this care we formed families, the nucleus of society. Families became communities. We devised rules, a moral code, language and music and mythology to give meaning and structure to our society. *

For the majority of human history life was 'solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.' Death was arbitrary, often agonising. People changed religion in accordance with the political powers that could take their livelihood or their lives. Pretending to subscribe to a particular fairy tale and the whimsical rules that are attached to it gave a measure of security.

There's a reason that the more educated you are the more likely you are to be an atheist.

(Does anybody else have a problem spelling 'atheist'? I get it wrong EVERY time. So much for the enlightening power of education.)

* I know I'm cheating on cause and effect.

brightspark · 18-08-2018 10:42PM

buried wrote: »

You can create your own God for yourself. I like to follow the Moon, always want to see a new one when I can, always like to go outside and see it when its there in all its glory. The ancients believed it was a God/Goddess, whether it was called Luna, Celine all of that. Worshipping a God is basically looking up to a higher power, longer lasting than ourselves, that you can awe at. The moon isn't a bad option to fill that need. And its actually there too.

Unfortunately I can't believe in Luna any more than Jehovah.

The moon is a just a slightly smaller rock than the one we live on. It's not a "higher power".

Thanks for trying (I really hope you were and not just being sarcastic, can't tell)

The Rape of Lucretia · 18-08-2018 10:43PM

_Brian wrote: »

Yes.
I always thought Athiests had no belief at all. Turns out they are an anti religion religion, they believe it’s theor job to knock people who have a faith - this in itself is sadder than any belief in god.

I dont think that is correct or fair. They dont knock the people - they knock the faith, for example when grouping religious belief with Santa, the tooth fairy, or star signs. Which some religious people misinterpret as knocking the people.
Its also the case that the atheist can see where the religious person is wrong and under a superstitious delusion. The religious person cannot point out any flaw in atheism - other than resorting to personal jibes about it atheists believing its their job to knock people who have faith for example.

indioblack · 18-08-2018 10:43PM

buried wrote: »

What does he say about the New Testament version?

Mostly about Jesus and the claims that he existed historically.
He has a strong, genuine belief - we have disagreed on this subject, but never fallen out.

buried · 18-08-2018 10:47PM

brightspark wrote: »

Unfortunately I can't believe in Luna any more than Jehovah.

The moon is a just a slightly smaller rock than the one we live on. It's not a "higher power".

Thanks for trying (I really hope you were and not just being sarcastic, can't tell)

Nah wasn't being smartarse man, I genuinely do that, it helps me anyways. Going outside on a clear night is great for the mind. But you need to be away from the urban streetlight gloom. Give it a try coming into winter with the dark nights and the thin atmosphere, weather permitting of course

indioblack · 18-08-2018 10:55PM

beveragelady wrote: »

God is omnipotent.
God is good.
Babies die of starvation .

The third statement is true. That means one of the other two definitely isn't.

The above reasoning is very simple. You will not convince me that believers have not arrived at it themselves, decided not to think too hard about it, and just keep pretending like everybody else.

Anyway, back to the point. The story of human evolution is the story of an evolving society.

In our ape-like days we migrated from trees to veld. We needed to see over tall grass so we stood up. this left our hands free so we picked things up. We began to master complicated tasks, so our brains grew. Giving birth to something with a giant head is dangerous, so we gave birth to half-formed helpless blobs that need round-the-clock care for years. In order to provide this care we formed families, the nucleus of society. Families became communities. We devised rules, a moral code, language and music and mythology to give meaning and structure to our society. *

For the majority of human history life was 'solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.' Death was arbitrary, often agonising. People changed religion in accordance with the political powers that could take their livelihood or their lives. Pretending to subscribe to a particular fairy tale and the whimsical rules that are attached to it gave a measure of security.

There's a reason that the more educated you are the more likely you are to be an atheist.

(Does anybody else have a problem spelling 'atheist'? I get it wrong EVERY time. So much for the enlightening power of education.)

* I know I'm cheating on cause and effect.

I think for most people it's hoping that there is something on the other side of mortality.
I get atheist wrong every time as well. Perhaps it's a sign!

beveragelady · 18-08-2018 10:56PM

buried wrote: »

Nah wasn't being smartarse man, I genuinely do that, it helps me anyways. Going outside on a clear night is great for the mind. But you need to be away from the urban streetlight gloom. Give it a try coming into winter with the dark nights and the thin atmosphere, weather permitting of course

I do this too! I have a vantage point where I have strung a hammock and any evening since the start of June, if it wasn't raining or I wasn't busy, and if moonrise was at a reasonable hour, I installed myself in my hammock to watch the moon come up on the other side of the valley. I do it during the winter too, but less often.
The thing is, nobody is pretending the moon speaks to them, or gives them rules to live by, or decides who wins the lottery, or makes some people more powerful than others. You're encouraging Brightspark to take a proper look at the moon, you're not going to go round to anybody's house with a pitchfork if they decide the moon isn't for them.
Also, as you point out yourself, the moon is actually there, not like some deities I could mention.

buried · 18-08-2018 11:07PM

beveragelady wrote: »

I do this too! I have a vantage point where I have strung a hammock and any evening since the start of June, if it wasn't raining or I wasn't busy, and if moonrise was at a reasonable hour, I installed myself in my hammock to watch the moon come up on the other side of the valley. I do it during the winter too, but less often.

Class! Ah the moon is brilliant, did you see it the nights of the 'Rose Moon' in mid June? It came up full up from the south east, had the red glow all about it and a haze of mist over it like a crown where I was. The Thursday night I think it was. Fantastic sight. I try to tell my friends to look out for these things but they don't bother, they just not into it. I love the fact its sort of 'my thing' within my group and have it for myself anyways.

beveragelady · 18-08-2018 11:14PM

buried wrote: »

Class! Ah the moon is brilliant, did you see it the nights of the 'Rose Moon' in mid June? It came up full up from the south east, had the red glow all about it and a haze of mist over it like a crown where I was. The Thursday night I think it was. Fantastic sight. I try to tell my friends to look out for these things but they don't bother, they just not into it. I love the fact its sort of 'my thing' within my group and have it for myself anyways.

I saw it! It always feels like a privilege to witness these things. One of my favourite poems is "Moonrise" by Hopkins. I often do it with English classes because it captures the moment so perfectly. I was at a wedding once and one of the readings was a pile of nonsense about the moon being inconstant and cold, while the sun is the source of all life. I got quite miffed on behalf of the moon and had to restrain myself from having a stern word with the bride about her choice of readings. I'm quite the lunar zealot.

s7ryf3925pivug · 18-08-2018 11:28PM

I've accidentally bitten my own tongue and lips on a few occasions. Maybe we're just not perfect animals.

RobbingBandit · 18-08-2018 11:32PM

Our God is omnipotent
Our God is good
Their babies die of starvation

Ah semantics

HappyAsLarE · 18-08-2018 11:35PM

Religious teachings are Humankind’s way of passing down morales and knowledge to the next generation.

Carry the cross - bear personal responsibility even if it is torture.

Sacrifice the lamb - don’t chase what is expedient, but what is worthwhile.

Rise from the dead - there is a way back from Hell.

Etc, etc.

Chimps function in society limited by number of members. Humans have used religion to live in tribes of millions by using religion.

r93kaey5p2izun · 18-08-2018 11:40PM

In many ways I wish I could believe in a god. But then at the same time, when I look at the state of things, I actually think that if there were a god then that would be a horrifying notion.

I don't think it's surprising or difficult to understand why/how so many people can believe in a god though. But the continued belief in, or support for, organised religion is something I'll just never understand.

HappyAsLarE · 18-08-2018 11:42PM

Kaysen Obedient Tan wrote: »

In many ways I wish I could believe in a god. But then at the same time, when I look at the state of things, I actually think that if there were a god then that would be a horrifying notion.

I don't think it's surprising or difficult to understand why/how so many people can believe in a god though. But the continued belief in, or support for, organised religion is something I'll just never understand.

Depends on what God is. If God is the Self...

RobbingBandit · 18-08-2018 11:52PM

monotheism really doesn't work too much responsibility for just one persona. And this whole god is great but really pisses me off ancient civilisation had gods that were riding everything in sight their gods were ****ed up with more **** going wrong than right they had origin stories too that really didn't make much sense but that made them more relatable and a source to believe in this whole unwavering faith thing is useless and the rules are made up based on society and foundations that were obsolete years before they were adapted let alone being transmittable in modern society.

The Rape of Lucretia · 19-08-2018 12:01AM

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Religious teachings are Humankind’s way of passing down morales and knowledge to the next generation.

Carry the cross - bear personal responsibility even if it is torture.

Sacrifice the lamb - don’t chase what is expedient, but what is worthwhile.

Rise from the dead - there is a way back from Hell.

Etc, etc.

Chimps function in society limited by number of members. Humans have used religion to live in tribes of millions by using religion.

As a best available solution maybe. In the millennia before education, science, literacy, mass communication not controlled by superstitious cults, equality, and democracy. Which has now well and truly superceeded that inferior system.

AllForIt · 19-08-2018 12:04AM

I tune into AH when I don't want to think so please desist from these kinds of topics OP :P

iguana · 19-08-2018 12:27AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If religion is all make believe and nonsense then why does nature allow humans to have such faith in the first place?

Darwin is survival of the fittest and nature perfects the most efficient organic machines on the planet.

So why then would this natural order of precision and efficency allow the human brain to accomodate faith of any kind?

Surely it shouldn't if it's deleterous and make believe.

If talking frogs are all make believe and nonsense then why did nature allow humans like Jim Henson to create Kermit in the first place?

Darwin is survival of the fittest and nature perfects the most efficient organic machines on the planet.

So why then would this natural order of precision and efficency allow the human brain to accomodate imaginary muppets?

Surely it shouldn't if it's deleterous and make believe.

NOVA MCMXCIV · 19-08-2018 01:57AM

Hold on a minute – pigeons can develop unfounded beliefs? That is EPIC!

nozzferrahhtoo · 19-08-2018 07:47AM

Stanford wrote: »

" religion is all make believe and nonsense"...no one can say this is a scientific fact, it is true for believers and untrue for others who do not believe it.

The tales told by the majority religions are unsubstantiated and quite often nonsense. Sometimes to the point of being self contradictory nonsense.

That it is "true for believers" does not negate this fact. You present the two as if one is in contradiction to the other....... as if it being "True for believers" negates the claim that it is nonsense.

But there is no reason to think they are incongruent. Something can be nonsense, yet be "true for some people" at the same time.

Stanford wrote: »

You are confusing choice with belief, everyone has a choice as to what they believe.

Speak for yourself. You certainly do not speak for "everyone". I for one has no such choice. I can not simply "choose" to believe the unsubstantiated. I can not simply "choose" to disbelieve something for which there is strong evidence. Belief either comes, or it does not, and I am helpless to make it one way or another.

One wonders how labile your credulity is, if indeed you are someone who can "choose as to what they believe". If I give you a patently empty box for example, can you simple "Choose to believe" it is full of money? I know I certainly can not.

nozzferrahhtoo · 19-08-2018 07:47AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If religion is all make believe and nonsense then why does nature allow humans to have such faith in the first place?

Well an interesting first approach to that question is to ask yourself why it would NOT allow it. There is no reason for it not to. Unless it somehow negatively impacts on selective advantage, then nature and natural selection will be blind to it.

People tend to often think of traits as good or bad in terms of natural selection. But many traits can simply be neutral.

However a second approach to the question is to ask yourself, if the common cold is detrimental to fitness then why does nature allow humans to catch it? The answer to THAT one is that technically it does not allow that. What it DOES allow for is the evolution of traits that are advantageous to us as humans. And those traits are then commondeered by the genetic infections we know of as viruses and bacteria. These infections have evolved to commondeer and manipulate positive traits in our species that have evolved for entirely different reasons.

Similarly the memetic infection of unsubstantiated nonsense like religions have evolved to manipulate........... commandeer, take advantage of and reproduce themselves using........... traits that already exist in humans for other good reasons.

So the answer to your question would be that it is not that nature "allows" us to believe nonsense, but it has evolved us to do other things and this nonsense has similarly evolved to take advantage of, and manipulate, those attributes.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

And if it does that means there must be a benefit to faith or else nature wouldn't facilitate it.

As I said above, that is a common error that is worth correcting. Natural Selection does not select for, or permit, solely things that are beneficial. It can also select for or allow traits that are neutral, or even only slightly detrimental. It can also select for, or allow, traits that are detrimental but "come along for the ride" on other traits that are beneficial.

Our ability to be infected by viruses, the blind spot in our vision or the ability to be fooled by optical illusion and so forth, the amalgamation of a sewage system with an entertainment complex in our genitals, and many other things are all examples of how Natural Selection blindly selects for things that in and of themselves are not advantageous.... or are even detrimental....... but are selected for anyway.

And this happens because Natural Selection is a blind and non-thinking process. It does not plan for goals, it does not attempt to "perfect" anything, it has no plan, and it has no way to select even better ideas over the ones that are readily available to it.

nozzferrahhtoo · 19-08-2018 07:48AM

brightspark wrote: »

Assuming he isn't offering up human sacrifices etc., just why do you feel you need to rob him of a mental support he has had all his life??

Why do you feel the need to assume it is a mental support? The user only said that the person "has a strong conviction in the existence of God". The idea it is a "support" is entirely of YOUR invention, not his.

It might, for all you know, be the entire opposite. He might be quite disturbed by this belief and suffer for it. Especially if, as the user wrote, his belief is in the old testament god specifically. Belief in the existence in THAT character is far from being automatically a source of support or comfort.

You are projecting YOUR value judgements and emotional attitudes towards belief and assuming some random believer holds them too.

Further why do you assume that the user above approached this person to divest them of their belief. BY FAR in my experience the conversations of this nature, and the evangelism of claims as to what is true or not, comes from the religious individual. Then when the non-believer responds they get treated, as you knee-jerk do here, as if they are somehow the bad person in the equation.

brightspark wrote: »

It's a tough life, people need all the help they can get mentally as well as physically.

Sure, and divesting each other of unsubstantiated nonsense and lies is one way to help people mentally. So have at it.

brightspark wrote: »

Religion may be the opium of the people, but some people need it just to survive.

Do they though, or do they just think they do, or have been led to believe by people with a vested opinion on the matter to think they do?

Hannibal_Smith · 19-08-2018 09:36AM

_Brian wrote: »

Yes.
I always thought Athiests had no belief at all. Turns out they are an anti religion religion, they believe it’s theor job to knock people who have a faith - this in itself is sadder than any belief in god.

I never understand attitudes like this. A person can talk about their religion, but the audience cannot respond as to how they don't believe in that religion? Why is the discussion always so one sided? I have a religion and you cannot question it?

HappyAsLarE · 19-08-2018 09:55AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

As a best available solution maybe. In the millennia before education, science, literacy, mass communication not controlled by superstitious cults, equality, and democracy. Which has now well and truly superceeded that inferior system.

All of our modern methods are as make believe as God:

Money, countries, companies. They only exist in the human mind. They are not real.

A question for Atheists...

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