Selling on of electricity

Jeditraining1 · 15-08-2018 7:54pm #1

So in the last few days I was party to a conversation where it was discussed how the ESB are getting irritated at the fact that some contractors have started to put in some charging pillars where the business or premises can charge, €0.20C per hour. In accordance with the energy regulator rules the sale of electricity by a 3rd party (E.G. a landlord to a tenant) is strictly prohibited. Has anyone else had any other dealings with this? How are they getting around the loophole at the moment, or are they?

n97 mini · 15-08-2018 8:29pm

Selling by the unit is not allowed, but charging rent per hour, or a connection fee etc is fine as you're not actually selling electricity.

I understand the legislation was originally introduced to stop landlords gouging tenants (via coin boxes, like when I was in college), so may be in need of updating as EVs weren't a thing back then.

Jeditraining1 · 15-08-2018 8:46pm

Yeah that was part of the conversation and apparently not how its being viewed against the rules, it's a very fine line they are threading. It was a completely in formal conversation amongst people I know who have a hand in the legislation (Political and implementation). You are correct that it was introduced to stop landlords selling on but once again referring to the conversation a very fine line is being threaded. Attention has ben drawn to these chargers and the term "test case" against the legislation is being tentavily looked at. Personally I think they should be taken out for one simple reason, it's too soon for them.

Allow me to explain. 3 years ago (About) the ESB tried to introduce charges on the basis of time, there was public outcry (and rightfully so) as they were a complete rip off. Lets say for a moment that the ESB turn a blind eye to these and the installations continues well then the ESB would have the right to turn around and say that private industry is doing it so we will too; and remember the CER effectively ruled that charges could be brought in unregulated. Dangerous ground for setting any kind of precedent.

antoinolachtnai · 15-08-2018 8:52pm

Selling by the unit is perfectly legal from what I can see. Why would it not be?

Gravelly · 15-08-2018 8:54pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Selling by the unit is not allowed, but charging rent per hour, or a connection fee etc is fine as you're not actually selling electricity.

I understand the legislation was originally introduced to stop landlords gouging tenants (via coin boxes, like when I was in college), so may be in need of updating as EVs weren't a thing back then.

Ah those coin boxes - in college I shared with a girl from Cork who could pick locks, and many is the night she saved us from having to spend our precious beer money on heat and light!

Jeditraining1 · 15-08-2018 9:01pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Selling by the unit is perfectly legal from what I can see. Why would it not be?

Completely illegal. Has been for years. Unless you have a contractual agreement with an energy provider. Typically this means that energy gets sold by the Gw in a unit bundle. That's how the likes of prepay power exist, they but it in a large bundle. On the flip side of that you have the likes of landlords that are not permitted to sell on electricity. An example of that would lets say you have 3 apartments run on one meter. Splitting the bill or selling it on in any form is illegal from a few different points of view. This is where the pillar points are being looked at.

bp_me · 15-08-2018 9:02pm

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

So in the last few days I was party to a conversation where it was discussed how the ESB are getting irritated at the fact that some contractors have started to put in some charging pillars where the business or premises can charge, €0.20C per hour. In accordance with the energy regulator rules the sale of electricity by a 3rd party (E.G. a landlord to a tenant) is strictly prohibited. Has anyone else had any other dealings with this? How are they getting around the loophole at the moment, or are they?

In the CRU's decision on the future of the charging network they made it very clear that they believed it was entirely possible and legal to sell on electricity and charge by time or by unit for EV charging.

Shefwedfan · 15-08-2018 9:02pm

To be honest....the more irritated ESB get the better....

They might get the finger out then.....

I bet it really pi**es them off when companies are making money out of chargers and they can't....pity is more companies hadn't the initiative to make more money out of it

antoinolachtnai · 15-08-2018 9:05pm

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Completely illegal. Has been for years. Unless you have a contractual agreement with an energy provider. Typically this means that energy gets sold by the Gw in a unit bundle. That's how the likes of prepay power exist, they but it in a large bundle. On the flip side of that you have the likes of landlords that are not permitted to sell on electricity. An example of that would lets say you have 3 apartments run on one meter. Splitting the bill or selling it on in any form is illegal from a few different points of view. This is where the pillar points are being looked at.

You are talking about supplying a premises. What does this have to do with charging a car?

Jeditraining1 · 15-08-2018 9:10pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You are talking about supplying a premises. What does this have to do with charging a car?

It's is being viewed as still selling on doesn't matter if it is private or commercial. Anyway I just thought I'd put it out there for people's opinion.... time will tell :-). If a test case is taken or the legislation is examined you can bet it will be viewed as sale of power.

antoinolachtnai · 15-08-2018 9:13pm

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

It's is being viewed as still selling on doesn't matter if it is private or commercial. Anyway I just thought I'd put it out there for people's opinion.... time will tell :-). If a test case is taken or the legislation is examined you can bet it will be viewed as sale of power.

I do not see much legal problem with selling power to charge an EV. And why would ESB care?

Jeditraining1 · 15-08-2018 9:14pm

bp_me wrote: »

In the CRU's decision on the future of the charging network they made it very clear that they believed it was entirely possible and legal to sell on electricity and charge by time or by unit for EV charging.

Yes but under the current legistation they still would have to buy in bulk from the provider ( prior example prepay power who buy in Gw). In order for the CRUs suggestions (which is all they are at the moment) to be implemented the legislation would have to be changed. You can be guarnteed the ESB through the CER would block that and yes they can.

Jeditraining1 · 15-08-2018 9:17pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I do not see much legal problem with selling power to charge an EV. And why would ESB care?

Trust me even the smallest transgression I have seen them chase very tenaciously. This is a small snowball that now is gathering attention. Good, bad or indifferent if they chase it I would not like to be in their way.

antoinolachtnai · 15-08-2018 9:24pm

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Yes but under the current legistation they still would have to buy in bulk from the provider ( prior example prepay power who buy in Gw). In order for the CRUs suggestions (which is all they are at the moment) to be implemented the legislation would have to be changed. You can be guarnteed the ESB through the CER would block that and yes they can.

Well unless you have a power plant all electricity has to be bought from somebody. Why cant the charger owner just buy in bulk from any electricity supplier?

Why would the ESB try to block this?

Jeditraining1 · 15-08-2018 9:26pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well unless you have a power plant all electricity has to be bought from somebody. Why cant the charger oener just buy in bulk from any electricity supplier?

Why would the ESB try to block this?

Simple, has to be commercially viable for them. It's not unless it's on a commercial basis.

antoinolachtnai · 15-08-2018 9:28pm

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Simple, has to be commercially viable for them. It's not unless it's on a commercial basis.

What isn’t commercial? The owner pays a big whack to get the electricity connected. Then they pay charges per unit, the same as for any other electricity consumption. ESB gets to make money all along the line.

Shefwedfan · 15-08-2018 9:29pm

According to report, just reading it. The charging infrastructure is not considered as the supply of electricity as defined in the act?

They don't need to hold a license even if selling by kWh

That is in report

ted1 · 15-08-2018 9:30pm

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

So in the last few days I was party to a conversation where it was discussed how the ESB are getting irritated at the fact that some contractors have started to put in some charging pillars where the business or premises can charge, €0.20C per hour. In accordance with the energy regulator rules the sale of electricity by a 3rd party (E.G. a landlord to a tenant) is strictly prohibited. Has anyone else had any other dealings with this? How are they getting around the loophole at the moment, or are they?

Surely Eirgrid or the regulator would be upset not ESB

Jeditraining1 · 15-08-2018 9:30pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well unless you have a power plant all electricity has to be bought from somebody. Why cant the charger owner just buy in bulk from any electricity supplier?

Why would the ESB try to block this?

Example: they have been blocking the sell back of solar for years now. That's why it can't be implemented.

antoinolachtnai · 15-08-2018 9:35pm

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Example: they have been blocking the sell back of solar for years now. That's why it can't be implemented.

Well thats not completely true and they had good reasons for their opposition. What are the reasons for opposing this?

bp_me · 15-08-2018 9:38pm

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Yes but under the current legistation they still would have to buy in bulk from the provider ( prior example prepay power who buy in Gw). In order for the CRUs suggestions (which is all they are at the moment) to be implemented the legislation would have to be changed. You can be guarnteed the ESB through the CER would block that and yes they can.

Have you read the CRU opinion on the supply of electricity for EV use. Here's the important part

Now yes opinions can change etc... but right now the opinion of the regulator is it's a none issue.

Jeditraining1 · 15-08-2018 9:40pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

According to report, just reading it. The charging infrastructure is not considered as the supply of electricity as defined in the act?

They don't need to hold a license even if selling by kWh

That is in report

Ooohhh grey area and not 100% factual subject to the argument that is probably coming.

Shefwedfan · 15-08-2018 9:47pm

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Ooohhh grey area and not 100% factual subject to the argument that is probably coming.

Not really if you read the report.

Jeditraining1 · 15-08-2018 10:05pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well thats not completely true and they had good reasons for their opposition. What are the reasons for opposing this?

Boils down to 2, safety and commercial viability.

antoinolachtnai · 15-08-2018 10:16pm

What is the commercial viability issue?

What is the safety issue?

Jeditraining1 · 15-08-2018 10:16pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not really if you read the report.

Yes really :-)... That's why they are moaning that they are about €9M down on the whole project, if that were true they would have no recoverable grounds and they would no longer be obliged to continue to provide as the trial period is done with. The report does not give the full picture my any stretch of the imagination and it is only a recommendation at the end of the day. There are several other key pices of the puzzle that the report does not make any reference to which really renders most of it void. I have had long conversations with some of the stakeholders and private contractors regarding it. I am not saying that their word or mind is in any way bible but there was one clear message that came through about that document from them all, that due to the vagueness of the points it was a meaningless copout with no clear pathway or defenation. So it's easy to pick one point and say that's it, unfortunately with out the rest of the story it's like saying having the "near.... faraway ted" conversation.

Rod Fantana · 15-08-2018 10:49pm

Tesla charge €0.24 per kWh for their superchargers (if you don't qualify for free supercharging). Are they breaking the law?

n97 mini · 15-08-2018 11:20pm

Rod Fantana wrote: »

Tesla charge €0.24 per kWh for their superchargers (if you don't qualify for free supercharging). Are they breaking the law?

They might be licensed, have you looked them up?

Dunno if Brendan Ogle is still making waves in the ESB since his infamous gravy video, but if ESB want to bring a test case, let them. If they succeed, the legislation will be amended eventually.

Rod Fantana · 15-08-2018 11:41pm

n97 mini wrote: »

They might be licensed, have you looked them up?

Is this the correct list of licence holders? No sign of Tesla. https://www.cru.ie/home/customer-care/energy/communication/

Shefwedfan · 15-08-2018 11:47pm

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Yes really :-)... That's why they are moaning that they are about €9M down on the whole project, if that were true they would have no recoverable grounds and they would no longer be obliged to continue to provide as the trial period is done with. The report does not give the full picture my any stretch of the imagination and it is only a recommendation at the end of the day. There are several other key pices of the puzzle that the report does not make any reference to which really renders most of it void. I have had long conversations with some of the stakeholders and private contractors regarding it. I am not saying that their word or mind is in any way bible but there was one clear message that came through about that document from them all, that due to the vagueness of the points it was a meaningless copout with no clear pathway or defenation. So it's easy to pick one point and say that's it, unfortunately with out the rest of the story it's like saying having the "near.... faraway ted" conversation.

Your original point was to ask how people are putting fees against charging

That has been answered....including references to documents

So what is your point now? Or is it just a thread about poor ESB?

P.s have you heard of paragraphs....

ted1 · 16-08-2018 12:18am

Rod Fantana wrote: »

n97 mini wrote: »

They might be licensed, have you looked them up?

Is this the correct list of licence holders? No sign of Tesla. https://www.cru.ie/home/customer-care/energy/communication/

EV charging probably wouldn’t fall under Domestic and probably not even commercial. They are not supplied with a meter that has a MPRN.

Selling on of electricity

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