Selling on of electricity

Jeditraining1

So in the last few days I was party to a conversation where it was discussed how the ESB are getting irritated at the fact that some contractors have started to put in some charging pillars where the business or premises can charge, €0.20C per hour. In accordance with the energy regulator rules the sale of electricity by a 3rd party (E.G. a landlord to a tenant) is strictly prohibited. Has anyone else had any other dealings with this? How are they getting around the loophole at the moment, or are they?

n97 mini

Selling by the unit is not allowed, but charging rent per hour, or a connection fee etc is fine as you're not actually selling electricity.

I understand the legislation was originally introduced to stop landlords gouging tenants (via coin boxes, like when I was in college), so may be in need of updating as EVs weren't a thing back then.

Jeditraining1

Yeah that was part of the conversation and apparently not how its being viewed against the rules, it's a very fine line they are threading. It was a completely in formal conversation amongst people I know who have a hand in the legislation (Political and implementation). You are correct that it was introduced to stop landlords selling on but once again referring to the conversation a very fine line is being threaded. Attention has ben drawn to these chargers and the term "test case" against the legislation is being tentavily looked at. Personally I think they should be taken out for one simple reason, it's too soon for them.

Allow me to explain. 3 years ago (About) the ESB tried to introduce charges on the basis of time, there was public outcry (and rightfully so) as they were a complete rip off. Lets say for a moment that the ESB turn a blind eye to these and the installations continues well then the ESB would have the right to turn around and say that private industry is doing it so we will too; and remember the CER effectively ruled that charges could be brought in unregulated. Dangerous ground for setting any kind of precedent.

antoinolachtnai

Selling by the unit is perfectly legal from what I can see. Why would it not be?

Gravelly

n97 mini wrote: »

Selling by the unit is not allowed, but charging rent per hour, or a connection fee etc is fine as you're not actually selling electricity.

I understand the legislation was originally introduced to stop landlords gouging tenants (via coin boxes, like when I was in college), so may be in need of updating as EVs weren't a thing back then.

Ah those coin boxes - in college I shared with a girl from Cork who could pick locks, and many is the night she saved us from having to spend our precious beer money on heat and light!

Jeditraining1

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Selling by the unit is perfectly legal from what I can see. Why would it not be?

Completely illegal. Has been for years. Unless you have a contractual agreement with an energy provider. Typically this means that energy gets sold by the Gw in a unit bundle. That's how the likes of prepay power exist, they but it in a large bundle. On the flip side of that you have the likes of landlords that are not permitted to sell on electricity. An example of that would lets say you have 3 apartments run on one meter. Splitting the bill or selling it on in any form is illegal from a few different points of view. This is where the pillar points are being looked at.

bp_me

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

So in the last few days I was party to a conversation where it was discussed how the ESB are getting irritated at the fact that some contractors have started to put in some charging pillars where the business or premises can charge, €0.20C per hour. In accordance with the energy regulator rules the sale of electricity by a 3rd party (E.G. a landlord to a tenant) is strictly prohibited. Has anyone else had any other dealings with this? How are they getting around the loophole at the moment, or are they?

In the CRU's decision on the future of the charging network they made it very clear that they believed it was entirely possible and legal to sell on electricity and charge by time or by unit for EV charging.

Shefwedfan

To be honest....the more irritated ESB get the better....

They might get the finger out then.....

I bet it really pi**es them off when companies are making money out of chargers and they can't....pity is more companies hadn't the initiative to make more money out of it

antoinolachtnai

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Completely illegal. Has been for years. Unless you have a contractual agreement with an energy provider. Typically this means that energy gets sold by the Gw in a unit bundle. That's how the likes of prepay power exist, they but it in a large bundle. On the flip side of that you have the likes of landlords that are not permitted to sell on electricity. An example of that would lets say you have 3 apartments run on one meter. Splitting the bill or selling it on in any form is illegal from a few different points of view. This is where the pillar points are being looked at.

You are talking about supplying a premises. What does this have to do with charging a car?

Jeditraining1

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You are talking about supplying a premises. What does this have to do with charging a car?

It's is being viewed as still selling on doesn't matter if it is private or commercial. Anyway I just thought I'd put it out there for people's opinion.... time will tell :-). If a test case is taken or the legislation is examined you can bet it will be viewed as sale of power.

antoinolachtnai

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

It's is being viewed as still selling on doesn't matter if it is private or commercial. Anyway I just thought I'd put it out there for people's opinion.... time will tell :-). If a test case is taken or the legislation is examined you can bet it will be viewed as sale of power.

I do not see much legal problem with selling power to charge an EV. And why would ESB care?

Jeditraining1

bp_me wrote: »

In the CRU's decision on the future of the charging network they made it very clear that they believed it was entirely possible and legal to sell on electricity and charge by time or by unit for EV charging.

Yes but under the current legistation they still would have to buy in bulk from the provider ( prior example prepay power who buy in Gw). In order for the CRUs suggestions (which is all they are at the moment) to be implemented the legislation would have to be changed. You can be guarnteed the ESB through the CER would block that and yes they can.

Jeditraining1

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I do not see much legal problem with selling power to charge an EV. And why would ESB care?

Trust me even the smallest transgression I have seen them chase very tenaciously. This is a small snowball that now is gathering attention. Good, bad or indifferent if they chase it I would not like to be in their way.

antoinolachtnai

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Yes but under the current legistation they still would have to buy in bulk from the provider ( prior example prepay power who buy in Gw). In order for the CRUs suggestions (which is all they are at the moment) to be implemented the legislation would have to be changed. You can be guarnteed the ESB through the CER would block that and yes they can.

Well unless you have a power plant all electricity has to be bought from somebody. Why cant the charger owner just buy in bulk from any electricity supplier?

Why would the ESB try to block this?

Jeditraining1

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well unless you have a power plant all electricity has to be bought from somebody. Why cant the charger oener just buy in bulk from any electricity supplier?

Why would the ESB try to block this?

Simple, has to be commercially viable for them. It's not unless it's on a commercial basis.

antoinolachtnai

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Simple, has to be commercially viable for them. It's not unless it's on a commercial basis.

What isn’t commercial? The owner pays a big whack to get the electricity connected. Then they pay charges per unit, the same as for any other electricity consumption. ESB gets to make money all along the line.

Shefwedfan

According to report, just reading it. The charging infrastructure is not considered as the supply of electricity as defined in the act?

They don't need to hold a license even if selling by kWh

That is in report

ted1

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

So in the last few days I was party to a conversation where it was discussed how the ESB are getting irritated at the fact that some contractors have started to put in some charging pillars where the business or premises can charge, €0.20C per hour. In accordance with the energy regulator rules the sale of electricity by a 3rd party (E.G. a landlord to a tenant) is strictly prohibited. Has anyone else had any other dealings with this? How are they getting around the loophole at the moment, or are they?

Surely Eirgrid or the regulator would be upset not ESB

Jeditraining1

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well unless you have a power plant all electricity has to be bought from somebody. Why cant the charger owner just buy in bulk from any electricity supplier?

Why would the ESB try to block this?

Example: they have been blocking the sell back of solar for years now. That's why it can't be implemented.

antoinolachtnai

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Example: they have been blocking the sell back of solar for years now. That's why it can't be implemented.

Well thats not completely true and they had good reasons for their opposition. What are the reasons for opposing this?

bp_me

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Yes but under the current legistation they still would have to buy in bulk from the provider ( prior example prepay power who buy in Gw). In order for the CRUs suggestions (which is all they are at the moment) to be implemented the legislation would have to be changed. You can be guarnteed the ESB through the CER would block that and yes they can.

Have you read the CRU opinion on the supply of electricity for EV use. Here's the important part



Now yes opinions can change etc... but right now the opinion of the regulator is it's a none issue.

Jeditraining1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

According to report, just reading it. The charging infrastructure is not considered as the supply of electricity as defined in the act?

They don't need to hold a license even if selling by kWh

That is in report

Ooohhh grey area and not 100% factual subject to the argument that is probably coming.

Shefwedfan

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Ooohhh grey area and not 100% factual subject to the argument that is probably coming.

Not really if you read the report.

Jeditraining1

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well thats not completely true and they had good reasons for their opposition. What are the reasons for opposing this?

Boils down to 2, safety and commercial viability.

antoinolachtnai

What is the commercial viability issue?

What is the safety issue?

Jeditraining1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not really if you read the report.

Yes really :-)... That's why they are moaning that they are about €9M down on the whole project, if that were true they would have no recoverable grounds and they would no longer be obliged to continue to provide as the trial period is done with. The report does not give the full picture my any stretch of the imagination and it is only a recommendation at the end of the day. There are several other key pices of the puzzle that the report does not make any reference to which really renders most of it void. I have had long conversations with some of the stakeholders and private contractors regarding it. I am not saying that their word or mind is in any way bible but there was one clear message that came through about that document from them all, that due to the vagueness of the points it was a meaningless copout with no clear pathway or defenation. So it's easy to pick one point and say that's it, unfortunately with out the rest of the story it's like saying having the "near.... faraway ted" conversation.

Rod Fantana

Tesla charge €0.24 per kWh for their superchargers (if you don't qualify for free supercharging). Are they breaking the law?

n97 mini

Rod Fantana wrote: »

Tesla charge €0.24 per kWh for their superchargers (if you don't qualify for free supercharging). Are they breaking the law?

They might be licensed, have you looked them up?

Dunno if Brendan Ogle is still making waves in the ESB since his infamous gravy video, but if ESB want to bring a test case, let them. If they succeed, the legislation will be amended eventually.

Rod Fantana

n97 mini wrote: »

They might be licensed, have you looked them up?

Is this the correct list of licence holders? No sign of Tesla. https://www.cru.ie/home/customer-care/energy/communication/

Shefwedfan

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Yes really :-)... That's why they are moaning that they are about €9M down on the whole project, if that were true they would have no recoverable grounds and they would no longer be obliged to continue to provide as the trial period is done with. The report does not give the full picture my any stretch of the imagination and it is only a recommendation at the end of the day. There are several other key pices of the puzzle that the report does not make any reference to which really renders most of it void. I have had long conversations with some of the stakeholders and private contractors regarding it. I am not saying that their word or mind is in any way bible but there was one clear message that came through about that document from them all, that due to the vagueness of the points it was a meaningless copout with no clear pathway or defenation. So it's easy to pick one point and say that's it, unfortunately with out the rest of the story it's like saying having the "near.... faraway ted" conversation.

Your original point was to ask how people are putting fees against charging

That has been answered....including references to documents

So what is your point now? Or is it just a thread about poor ESB?

P.s have you heard of paragraphs....

ted1

Rod Fantana wrote: »

n97 mini wrote: »

They might be licensed, have you looked them up?

Is this the correct list of licence holders? No sign of Tesla. https://www.cru.ie/home/customer-care/energy/communication/

EV charging probably wouldn’t fall under Domestic and probably not even commercial. They are not supplied with a meter that has a MPRN.

unkel

An ESB employee makes over EUR100k on average

Pretty unreal, they wouldn't get even half that in a commercial business. Do I smell some of that coziness coming off some posters in here obfuscating issues?

Jeditraining1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Your original point was to ask how people are putting fees against charging

That has been answered....including references to documents

So what is your point now? Or is it just a thread about poor ESB?

P.s have you heard of paragraphs....

1. Nope has not been answered. 2. The documents for the most part are rubbish. 3. This is a conversation not a question therefore your opinion is welcome but not bible. 4. You are the one who brought the direction of the conversation down this path, not me.

So many thanks for your contribution however if you feel you do not wish to be part of a conversation please feel free to leave at any time. Your posts time has a very distinct ring yo it, were you here before under a different profile name? Perhaps on behalf of a particular body?

Jeditraining1

Rod Fantana wrote: »

Tesla charge €0.24 per kWh for their superchargers (if you don't qualify for free supercharging). Are they breaking the law?

Last I heard they buy in bulk to sell on. If this is true they would be doing so under licence. So no wouldn't be illegal.

Jeditraining1

unkel wrote: »

An ESB employee makes over EUR100k on average

Pretty unreal, they wouldn't get even half that in a commercial business. Do I smell some of that coziness coming off some posters in here obfuscating issues?

There is a distinct air of a particular group and obiously pulling the conversation in a different direction.

antoinolachtnai

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Last I heard they buy in bulk to sell on. If this is true they would be doing so under licence. So no wouldn't be illegal.

Who are they buying this electricity in bulk from, did you hear?

ELM327

The CER confirmed that selling electricity to charge an ecar does not constitute requiring a supply licence.
I'd like to see where the "illegality" is. Especially seeing as it's commonplace.
I'm sitting in work and my work chargers are free, however within about 1km there are at least 8 paid charger units in 2 different sites.

Shefwedfan

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

1. Nope has not been answered. 2. The documents for the most part are rubbish. 3. This is a conversation not a question therefore your opinion is welcome but not bible. 4. You are the one who brought the direction of the conversation down this path, not me.

So many thanks for your contribution however if you feel you do not wish to be part of a conversation please feel free to leave at any time. Your posts time has a very distinct ring yo it, were you here before under a different profile name? Perhaps on behalf of a particular body?

I have nothing to do with any group. I guess you are talking about IEVOA?? not sure what IEVOA have to do with this



I also have no tie with ESB just in case that is what you mean

What I can do is read. If a document is released saying you can sell electricity to charge a car then that answers you question in post 1. Lets remind you:

In accordance with the energy regulator rules the sale of electricity by a 3rd party (E.G. a landlord to a tenant) is strictly prohibited. Has anyone else had any other dealings with this? How are they getting around the loophole at the moment, or are they?

So part 1 has no relevance. Part 2 is the document I posted. Not sure what conversation you heard but if they do work in ESB I would be seriously concerned they don't know their own business.

Shefwedfan

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Last I heard they buy in bulk to sell on. If this is true they would be doing so under licence. So no wouldn't be illegal.

Heard from who or where?







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ELM327

I think this "jedi training" also needs some "CER" and "ESBn" training as there is nothing preventing anyone from legally selling ev charging by the kilowatt hour. This was directly clarified by the CRU at the time of the last budget, along with a number of other similar self perpetuating myths.
I used to work in the energy sector, in pricing for electricity and gas futures, and while it was the case (and still is for electricity supply to an end user via an MPRN) that you needed a CER/CRU license to supply, it has been long since clarified that supplying electricity via a ecar charger does not constitute an end user. The end user is the MPRN to whom the electricity was supplied that powers the charger.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

I think this "jedi training" also needs some "CER" and "ESBn" training as there is nothing preventing anyone from legally selling ev charging by the kilowatt hour. This was directly clarified by the CRU at the time of the last budget, along with a number of other similar self perpetuating myths.
I used to work in the energy sector, in pricing for electricity and gas futures, and while it was the case (and still is for electricity supply to an end user via an MPRN) that you needed a CER/CRU license to supply, it has been long since clarified that supplying electricity via a ecar charger does not constitute an end user. The end user is the MPRN to whom the electricity was supplied that powers the charger.

From what I can gather and I am no expert. Back in the good old days landlord had coin meters. You fed the meter and got electricity but in fact the landlord was making a killing.


This is reason why they brought out the law to stop this happening.....


Now I could be wrong because again I was told this as part of a conversation with a landlord a few years back.

ted1

unkel wrote: »

An ESB employee makes over EUR100k on average

Pretty unreal, they wouldn't get even half that in a commercial business. Do I smell some of that coziness coming off some posters in here obfuscating issues?

That’s absolutely rubbish. Fake news.


Plenty of people are leaving ESB and getting much more from ABB and other similar companies

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

That’s absolutely rubbish. Fake news.


It’s owner if people are leaving ESB and getting much more from ABB and other similar companies

Average wage listed as 62k-72kOTE here
http://www.thejournal.ie/esb-pay-rise-2716701-Apr2016/

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

An ESB employee makes over EUR100k on average

Pretty unreal, they wouldn't get even half that in a commercial business. Do I smell some of that coziness coming off some posters in here obfuscating issues?

It is very hard to quantify to be honest.

You have 2 sections. ESB Network and Electric Ireland


ESB Network take on a lot of apprenticies who start on very basic wage. They will hopefully get skilled up and of course earn more money but once they have the skills private companies will hand them a few extra quid and they will jump. Now long term people in ESB Networks will do better over their career due to pensions etc but most young people are looking for the fast buck so jump.....


If you go back 30 years when privates companies hadn't that requirement you had people joining at 18 and working all their life with ESB network. I know a number of people who would have lived in my area and done that, all retired now.



Electric Ireland is a different story altogether but that's for another thread:D

ELM327

Even within or loosely affiliated to ESBn you've got transmission, distribution, Eirgrid, TAM, etc along with the likes of the former shared services etc.

It's so difficult to categorise ESB as one company for wages because as a regulated myriad of separate entities the jobs are not related, you've got the lady on the door, to the meter reader, to the qualified electrician, to the analysts and pricing, to the general admin and call centres.

ted1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

unkel wrote: »

An ESB employee makes over EUR100k on average

Pretty unreal, they wouldn't get even half that in a commercial business. Do I smell some of that coziness coming off some posters in here obfuscating issues?

It is very hard to quantify to be honest.

You have 2 sections. ESB Network and Electric Ireland


ESB Network take on a lot of apprenticies who start on very basic wage. They will hopefully get skilled up and of course earn more money but once they have the skills private companies will hand them a few extra quid and they will jump. Now long term people in ESB Networks will do better over their career due to pensions etc but most young people are looking for the fast buck so jump.....


If you go back 30 years when privates companies hadn't that requirement you had people joining at 18 and working all their life with ESB network. I know a number of people who would have lived in my area and done that, all retired now.



Electric Ireland is a different story altogether but that's for another thread:D

ESB Networks
ESB Telecoms
ESB International
Electric Ireland
Generation
And so on

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

ESB Networks
ESB Telecoms
ESB International
Electric Ireland
Generation
And so on

Ah I always forget ESBi

ted1

ELM327 wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

ESB Networks
ESB Telecoms
ESB International
Electric Ireland
Generation
And so on

Ah I always forget ESBi

That may or may not be where I work

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

That may or may not be where I work

I may have interviewed for a position there many moons ago in key account management before I moved to pricing. (Not in ESB I should add).
Don't want to mention specific locations in case you work in the same site or anything but it's not too far from the omni shopping centre/ikea area.

Shefwedfan

ted1 wrote: »

ESB Networks
ESB Telecoms
ESB International
Electric Ireland
Generation
And so on

Nobody cares about the rest of those piddly little sub divisions :p:p:p:p

Jeditraining1

Hi Elm. Thanks for the post. I used to work in the industry as well :-). There seems to be a general theme between you and Shefwedfan where you are both missing the point. Lets clarify as I can clearly see that you are both getting caught in rethrotic.

Currently anyone can provide a charge point, free or charging in the ROI. There is nothing stopping anyone. If you want to put one on your shed you can. This post was put up as a conversation point regarding grumblings that are happening in the sector where this is now starting to be viewed in a different light.... EG selling on of electricity. Which is hard to argue with. In regards to metering are they metered, they are actually but do they have an MPRN some do and some don't. Think about it private and commercial premises?. The CRU / CER are based on current legislation and anything created by them is nothing more than advisory, if they offer any clarification it is based on current legislation and not that of anything they have produced.

Regarding the licencing system / regulations for landlords that does not currently cover the chargers but if it did it would mean commercial premises would not be able to charge for electricity unless they purchased it in bulk. One feeds into the other.

Ultimately I think this change is being looked at as it is inevitable for one very simple reason. Why would a commercially entity want to take over in the Irish market if anyone can sell on??