Selling on of electricity

unkel

An ESB employee makes over EUR100k on average

Pretty unreal, they wouldn't get even half that in a commercial business. Do I smell some of that coziness coming off some posters in here obfuscating issues?

Jeditraining1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Your original point was to ask how people are putting fees against charging

That has been answered....including references to documents

So what is your point now? Or is it just a thread about poor ESB?

P.s have you heard of paragraphs....

1. Nope has not been answered. 2. The documents for the most part are rubbish. 3. This is a conversation not a question therefore your opinion is welcome but not bible. 4. You are the one who brought the direction of the conversation down this path, not me.

So many thanks for your contribution however if you feel you do not wish to be part of a conversation please feel free to leave at any time. Your posts time has a very distinct ring yo it, were you here before under a different profile name? Perhaps on behalf of a particular body?

Jeditraining1

Rod Fantana wrote: »

Tesla charge €0.24 per kWh for their superchargers (if you don't qualify for free supercharging). Are they breaking the law?

Last I heard they buy in bulk to sell on. If this is true they would be doing so under licence. So no wouldn't be illegal.

Jeditraining1

unkel wrote: »

An ESB employee makes over EUR100k on average

Pretty unreal, they wouldn't get even half that in a commercial business. Do I smell some of that coziness coming off some posters in here obfuscating issues?

There is a distinct air of a particular group and obiously pulling the conversation in a different direction.

antoinolachtnai

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Last I heard they buy in bulk to sell on. If this is true they would be doing so under licence. So no wouldn't be illegal.

Who are they buying this electricity in bulk from, did you hear?

ELM327

The CER confirmed that selling electricity to charge an ecar does not constitute requiring a supply licence.
I'd like to see where the "illegality" is. Especially seeing as it's commonplace.
I'm sitting in work and my work chargers are free, however within about 1km there are at least 8 paid charger units in 2 different sites.

Shefwedfan

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

1. Nope has not been answered. 2. The documents for the most part are rubbish. 3. This is a conversation not a question therefore your opinion is welcome but not bible. 4. You are the one who brought the direction of the conversation down this path, not me.

So many thanks for your contribution however if you feel you do not wish to be part of a conversation please feel free to leave at any time. Your posts time has a very distinct ring yo it, were you here before under a different profile name? Perhaps on behalf of a particular body?

I have nothing to do with any group. I guess you are talking about IEVOA?? not sure what IEVOA have to do with this



I also have no tie with ESB just in case that is what you mean

What I can do is read. If a document is released saying you can sell electricity to charge a car then that answers you question in post 1. Lets remind you:

In accordance with the energy regulator rules the sale of electricity by a 3rd party (E.G. a landlord to a tenant) is strictly prohibited. Has anyone else had any other dealings with this? How are they getting around the loophole at the moment, or are they?

So part 1 has no relevance. Part 2 is the document I posted. Not sure what conversation you heard but if they do work in ESB I would be seriously concerned they don't know their own business.

Shefwedfan

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Last I heard they buy in bulk to sell on. If this is true they would be doing so under licence. So no wouldn't be illegal.

Heard from who or where?







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ELM327

I think this "jedi training" also needs some "CER" and "ESBn" training as there is nothing preventing anyone from legally selling ev charging by the kilowatt hour. This was directly clarified by the CRU at the time of the last budget, along with a number of other similar self perpetuating myths.
I used to work in the energy sector, in pricing for electricity and gas futures, and while it was the case (and still is for electricity supply to an end user via an MPRN) that you needed a CER/CRU license to supply, it has been long since clarified that supplying electricity via a ecar charger does not constitute an end user. The end user is the MPRN to whom the electricity was supplied that powers the charger.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

I think this "jedi training" also needs some "CER" and "ESBn" training as there is nothing preventing anyone from legally selling ev charging by the kilowatt hour. This was directly clarified by the CRU at the time of the last budget, along with a number of other similar self perpetuating myths.
I used to work in the energy sector, in pricing for electricity and gas futures, and while it was the case (and still is for electricity supply to an end user via an MPRN) that you needed a CER/CRU license to supply, it has been long since clarified that supplying electricity via a ecar charger does not constitute an end user. The end user is the MPRN to whom the electricity was supplied that powers the charger.

From what I can gather and I am no expert. Back in the good old days landlord had coin meters. You fed the meter and got electricity but in fact the landlord was making a killing.


This is reason why they brought out the law to stop this happening.....


Now I could be wrong because again I was told this as part of a conversation with a landlord a few years back.

ted1

unkel wrote: »

An ESB employee makes over EUR100k on average

Pretty unreal, they wouldn't get even half that in a commercial business. Do I smell some of that coziness coming off some posters in here obfuscating issues?

That’s absolutely rubbish. Fake news.


Plenty of people are leaving ESB and getting much more from ABB and other similar companies

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

That’s absolutely rubbish. Fake news.


It’s owner if people are leaving ESB and getting much more from ABB and other similar companies

Average wage listed as 62k-72kOTE here
http://www.thejournal.ie/esb-pay-rise-2716701-Apr2016/

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

An ESB employee makes over EUR100k on average

Pretty unreal, they wouldn't get even half that in a commercial business. Do I smell some of that coziness coming off some posters in here obfuscating issues?

It is very hard to quantify to be honest.

You have 2 sections. ESB Network and Electric Ireland


ESB Network take on a lot of apprenticies who start on very basic wage. They will hopefully get skilled up and of course earn more money but once they have the skills private companies will hand them a few extra quid and they will jump. Now long term people in ESB Networks will do better over their career due to pensions etc but most young people are looking for the fast buck so jump.....


If you go back 30 years when privates companies hadn't that requirement you had people joining at 18 and working all their life with ESB network. I know a number of people who would have lived in my area and done that, all retired now.



Electric Ireland is a different story altogether but that's for another thread:D

ELM327

Even within or loosely affiliated to ESBn you've got transmission, distribution, Eirgrid, TAM, etc along with the likes of the former shared services etc.

It's so difficult to categorise ESB as one company for wages because as a regulated myriad of separate entities the jobs are not related, you've got the lady on the door, to the meter reader, to the qualified electrician, to the analysts and pricing, to the general admin and call centres.

ted1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

unkel wrote: »

An ESB employee makes over EUR100k on average

Pretty unreal, they wouldn't get even half that in a commercial business. Do I smell some of that coziness coming off some posters in here obfuscating issues?

It is very hard to quantify to be honest.

You have 2 sections. ESB Network and Electric Ireland


ESB Network take on a lot of apprenticies who start on very basic wage. They will hopefully get skilled up and of course earn more money but once they have the skills private companies will hand them a few extra quid and they will jump. Now long term people in ESB Networks will do better over their career due to pensions etc but most young people are looking for the fast buck so jump.....


If you go back 30 years when privates companies hadn't that requirement you had people joining at 18 and working all their life with ESB network. I know a number of people who would have lived in my area and done that, all retired now.



Electric Ireland is a different story altogether but that's for another thread:D

ESB Networks
ESB Telecoms
ESB International
Electric Ireland
Generation
And so on

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

ESB Networks
ESB Telecoms
ESB International
Electric Ireland
Generation
And so on

Ah I always forget ESBi

ted1

ELM327 wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

ESB Networks
ESB Telecoms
ESB International
Electric Ireland
Generation
And so on

Ah I always forget ESBi

That may or may not be where I work

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

That may or may not be where I work

I may have interviewed for a position there many moons ago in key account management before I moved to pricing. (Not in ESB I should add).
Don't want to mention specific locations in case you work in the same site or anything but it's not too far from the omni shopping centre/ikea area.

Shefwedfan

ted1 wrote: »

ESB Networks
ESB Telecoms
ESB International
Electric Ireland
Generation
And so on

Nobody cares about the rest of those piddly little sub divisions :p:p:p:p

Jeditraining1

Hi Elm. Thanks for the post. I used to work in the industry as well :-). There seems to be a general theme between you and Shefwedfan where you are both missing the point. Lets clarify as I can clearly see that you are both getting caught in rethrotic.

Currently anyone can provide a charge point, free or charging in the ROI. There is nothing stopping anyone. If you want to put one on your shed you can. This post was put up as a conversation point regarding grumblings that are happening in the sector where this is now starting to be viewed in a different light.... EG selling on of electricity. Which is hard to argue with. In regards to metering are they metered, they are actually but do they have an MPRN some do and some don't. Think about it private and commercial premises?. The CRU / CER are based on current legislation and anything created by them is nothing more than advisory, if they offer any clarification it is based on current legislation and not that of anything they have produced.

Regarding the licencing system / regulations for landlords that does not currently cover the chargers but if it did it would mean commercial premises would not be able to charge for electricity unless they purchased it in bulk. One feeds into the other.

Ultimately I think this change is being looked at as it is inevitable for one very simple reason. Why would a commercially entity want to take over in the Irish market if anyone can sell on??

Shefwedfan

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Ultimately I think this change is being looked at as it is inevitable for one very simple reason. Why would a commercially entity want to take over in the Irish market if anyone can sell on??

I will answer this section. So lets say I win 20 million tomorrow morning and I want to set up private network. So I need the following


1. Chargers, lots of them. They ain't cheap but I have 20 million in my back pocket so I can buy them.
2. Locations, I cannot just walk down the road and plonk a charger along the side of the road. I will need planning to install the charger but I also need planning in case the charger add additional traffic to area. If it does will it affect the traffic flow in area. Is it in residential area? if so will the locals object? etc etc etc
3. Electricity, is the site capable of running multiple charge points. The only money is in fast chargers and the more I can install the more money I make but does it have access to enough electricity? if not then I would guess ESB networks are going to have to supply, how much will they charge me?



It is very easy to regulate the installation of chargers. Actually getting someone to pay for the electricity is probably the least of my worries if I want to start up tomorrow morning.....only a large company with the resources would be able to make a success of installations....a 1 man start wont work



Without a proper push from the Government then a lot of those issues above would be a show stopper

antoinolachtnai

So your acquaintances' argument is essentially that no one will enter the Irish charging market unless they are granted some form of monopoly or other restriction on competition?

Jeditraining1

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

So your acquaintances' argument is essentially that no one will enter the Irish charging market unless they are granted some form of monopoly or other restriction on competition?

No I see what your saying but I could offer a counter argument in strict regulation. Defined boundaries would have to be set, E.G. regulation.

Jeditraining1

I answered your points with in a different colour, hope it worked not to cause confusion :-).

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I will answer this section. So lets say I win 20 million tomorrow morning and I want to set up private network. So I need the following


1. Chargers, lots of them. They ain't cheap but I have 20 million in my back pocket so I can buy them. Yep ok point taken
2. Locations, I cannot just walk down the road and plonk a charger along the side of the road. I will need planning to install the charger but I also need planning in case the charger add additional traffic to area. If it does will it affect the traffic flow in area. Is it in residential area? if so will the locals object? etc etc etcYour right not on the side of the road but you can on private property. Say if you bought a carpark, for example and made it EV's only filled with chargers (Oh if only)…. that's a bit of a mine field of planning thou, might be for another thread.
3. Electricity, is the site capable of running multiple charge points. The only money is in fast chargers and the more I can install the more money I make but does it have access to enough electricity? if not then I would guess ESB networks are going to have to supply, how much will they charge me? Don't know about fast charging, depends on the location really but at the end of the day its down to location I would think.


It is very easy to regulate the installation of chargers. Actually getting someone to pay for the electricity is probably the least of my worries if I want to start up tomorrow morning.....only a large company with the resources would be able to make a success of installations....a 1 man start wont work. Regulation is something that is required to being balance, unregulated anything could happen and we all seen what happened last time the ESB was let lose :-)



Without a proper push from the Government then a lot of those issues above would be a show stopper

… They have no coice now based on our emissions hence why we wont have charges for a long time to come...….

antoinolachtnai

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

No I see what your saying but I could offer a counter argument in strict regulation. Defined boundaries would have to be set, E.G. regulation.

You are proposing new regulations?

The distribution, sale and consumption of electricity is already highly regulated in various ways.

What would these regulations govern that isn’t already regulated?

liamog

If I could make a pitch for Shefwedfan's lotto winnings (I'm promoting you to a VC).

There is likely room for private operators of SCPs in semi-private settings. I.E. outsourcing the installation, operation, and billing for chargers in apartments and shared car parks.
I believe there is an EU directive requiring 10% EV charging spaces in multi unit dwellings from 2019.

cros13

One point is that there are no commercially successful charging networks anywhere on the planet yet.

Everyone is in the very early growth stage and making massive operating losses.
Probably the closest to profitability are Fortum in Norway but they have almost a quarter million EV owning customers in a market similarly sized to Ireland and they built their network as cheaply as possible (which is going to cause issues with capital needs for future growth).

Practically the poster child for how to build a charging network correctly is FastNed in the netherlands.
Their 2017 annual report is here:
https://cdn.fastnedcharging.com/uploads/documents/final-fastned-annual-report-2017.pdf

Revenue barely covered 10% of operating costs (and many customers are paying 75c/kWh on their PAYG plan). But they are playing the long game, rapid charging sites located beside MV grid infrastructure and sized to accommodate 8 rapid chargers. Locations mainly in motorway service areas, no site with less than two rapids and rolling out 150 & 350kW rapid chargers to all new sites.
With almost 100,000 EVs on the road in NL and sales hitting over 1,500/month they're positioning themselves for success in 5-10 years.

The real issue is that there's little sign that government here understands that:
1. EVs market share won't grow to the level it needs to without infrastructure.
2. The private sector won't invest in infrastructure with little hope of payback for more than a decade, especially with the anemic growth rates in EV adoption
3. Government is going to need to stump up the cash... because we won't see the kind of long-term investor FastNed is relying on (many of their investors are wealthy EV owners).

crossmolinalad

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Completely illegal. Has been for years. Unless you have a contractual agreement with an energy provider. Typically this means that energy gets sold by the Gw in a unit bundle. That's how the likes of prepay power exist, they but it in a large bundle. On the flip side of that you have the likes of landlords that are not permitted to sell on electricity. An example of that would lets say you have 3 apartments run on one meter. Splitting the bill or selling it on in any form is illegal from a few different points of view. This is where the pillar points are being looked at.

Never known that
Renting a house here on a farm and the landlord pays me for the electricity he uses on the farm
We share the vat and standard costs and he pays me the nett price for The units he used

Shefwedfan

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

I answered your points with in a different colour, hope it worked not to cause confusion :-).

… They have no coice now based on our emissions hence why we wont have charges for a long time to come...….

Your business case intrigues me.



If I won 20 million, my plan would be to turn that in 40, 50, 60 million. Not waste and end up pennyless and broke like I am now:mad:


If I bought a car park I would never turn around and block 99% of my customer base. I would even open Toyota Self Charging spots if they gave me a few quid :P it would pain me but then I would look at the cash


Anyway, lets be serious. How is this unregulated? electricity is up the ying yang full of regulations. Are you trying to stop people who own a house advertising their charger to regular people? this is already covered?

Are you trying to say a company who puts a charger into car park should be regulated? why? the government has already announced incentives to get more chargers installed, now you want to regulate them to stop them? How does that make sense?


You refer back to eCars pricing structure(which I dont know what it was) but this was never implemented. So it doesn't make any difference. Companies release products all the time at the wrong price and then change. They tested the water, if you gave them the option now they would not repeat.



Also, you keep refering to bulk. Where and who told you they had to buy in bulk? I think you might be confused with bulk pricing....so if you sell more you get a cheaper price per unit.....this is standard practise. Not that they have to sell X quantity or theydont have a contract. For a company that would be f**king madness. They could end up buying electricity with nobody to sell it to.....

DrPhilG

cros13 wrote: »

One point is that there are no commercially successful charging networks anywhere on the planet yet.

Practically the poster child for how to build a charging network correctly is FastNed in the netherlands.

But they are playing the long game

But will the long game ever come to fruition given that we are already creeping into the long range era, Kona/Niro/L60.

By the time there are enough EVs on the road to make a charging network profitable, they won't need to use the network at all.