Hungary Scrap Gender Studies Indoctrination Courses

Sal Butamol · 14-08-2018 12:38AM

And?

LLMMLL · 14-08-2018 01:16AM

Sal Butamol wrote: »

And?

So the idea that the syllabus is misleading and the professors are secretly teaching radical theories in an indoctrinating manner are highly unlikely if their own research is quite mild and uncontroversial.

Sal Butamol · 14-08-2018 08:21AM

LLMMLL wrote: »

So the idea that the syllabus is misleading and the professors are secretly teaching radical theories in an indoctrinating manner are highly unlikely if their own research is quite mild and uncontroversial.

None of which I claimed in relation to course outlines. What's your point?

TomSweeney · 14-08-2018 08:56AM

LLMMLL wrote: »

“The science that someone can claim to be whatever they want”???

What does that even mean?

Well you tell us ? you keep on promoting it !

TomSweeney · 14-08-2018 09:12AM

LLMMLL wrote: »

We can’t make any generalisations based on Rachel Dolzeal. She is one individual.

If 0.5% of the Irish population believed they were black then that would certainly be worthy of a generalised investigation and analysis, but one individual is at best a case study.

Are you implying that 0.5% of people are trans ?

1 in 200 seems a bit high - do you accept that many of these people are perhaps confused ? - maybe they are really gay . Not all of them of course but some.

And believe me that Rachel Dolzeal incident - we will be seeing a LOT more like that in the USA.

And finally, are you a troll account ?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 14-08-2018 09:41AM

Malayalam wrote: »

Hmmmm, tough one, there are many options, but I found Guido Preparata's book ''The Ideology of Tyranny'' provided a pretty good historical track back from Foucault to Bataille and ultimately to the Marquis de Sade. It illustrates quite well how humans have been reduced in post modern philosophy from sacred beings (in the widest sense of that implication) to deterministic, mechanistic, nihilistic objects to be divided and thus conquered. Preparata has a heavily poetic style which can make his writing somewhat opaque, but overall it is informative.

Interesting. I would not have positioned de Sade as a progenitor of postmodern thought. It also seems to me that any argument that relies on how people are no longer regarded as "sacred beings" has implications beyond just an intellectual genealogy of postmodernism; this has been the general trend in the Western world for several centuries now as we transition from a worldview based on religion and metaphysics, which viewed humans as the direct creations of a divine entity, to one based on science, rationalism, evolution, etc.

Malayalam · 14-08-2018 09:55AM

Annabel Ambitious Tinsel wrote: »

Interesting. I would not have positioned de Sade as a progenitor of postmodern thought. It also seems to me that any argument that relies on how people are no longer regarded as "sacred beings" has implications beyond just an intellectual genealogy of postmodernism; this has been the general trend in the Western world for several centuries now as we transition from a worldview based on religion and metaphysics, which viewed humans as the direct creations of a divine entity, to one based on science, rationalism, evolution, etc.

Yes to the first point

And the arguments do not 'rely' on the second but it is included in the general thesis

And religion and metaphysics while they have some overlap are not equivalent

PlaneSpeeking · 14-08-2018 10:03AM

TomSweeney wrote: »

Are you implying that 0.5% of people are trans ?

1 in 200 seems a bit high - do you accept that many of these people are perhaps confused ? - maybe they are really gay . Not all of them of course but some.

And believe me that Rachel Dolzeal incident - we will be seeing a LOT more like that in the USA.

And finally, are you a troll account ?

I've said this for many years now - people are fine, people are whatever they are.

STEREOTYPES are wrong.

How many trans people have you heard say "I knew I was a girl really when I didn't want to play football/wear trousers/have nicely styled hair" etc etc.

I'm female - I hate girly crap, outside of crying at Bambi and being terrified of spiders there's rarely a feminine bone here. I love sports, I hate dressing up, I own no make up and cut my own hair.

I've been told I am a lesbian, at least bi, gender fluid, non binary etc etc - all the modern made up ****e.

Why can't it be accepted in this brave new world that people matter, not made up nonsense labels ?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 14-08-2018 10:11AM

Malayalam wrote: »

And religion and metaphysics while they have some overlap are not equivalent

I didn't say they were equivalent.

However, Christianity was influenced heavily by Hellenistic philosophy for centuries. The "religion" with which most people are familiar -- with its tradition of divine mind before matter, Logos before creation -- is inextricable from the Greek metaphysics that preceded it.

TomSweeney · 14-08-2018 11:01AM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I've said this for many years now - people are fine, people are whatever they are.

STEREOTYPES are wrong.

How many trans people have you heard say "I knew I was a girl really when I didn't want to play football/wear trousers/have nicely styled hair" etc etc.

I'm female - I hate girly crap, outside of crying at Bambi and being terrified of spiders there's rarely a feminine bone here. I love sports, I hate dressing up, I own no make up and cut my own hair.

I've been told I am a lesbian, at least bi, gender fluid, non binary etc etc - all the modern made up ****e.

Why can't it be accepted in this brave new world that people matter, not made up nonsense labels ?

Spot on , I like the way you think.
Check out this podcast

https://youtu.be/HYJFgyqs0sM

Heather was saying that when she was a little girl she was a real tomboy and preferred "boys" toys and doing typical boyish things.
She is now a grown married woman - straight with 2 children and is very happy that way.
Now she made the great point that nowadays (especially in North America) you have these "progressive" parents that if they have a daughter like this they will decide for her that she is trans.
Maybe start her on hormonal treatment ... Imagine the fucking DAMAGE that could be done !! ??
Cos these idiots want to use their kids as "diversity" points etc...

Malayalam · 14-08-2018 12:33PM

Annabel Ambitious Tinsel wrote: »

I didn't say they were equivalent. However, Christianity was influenced heavily by Hellenistic philosophy for centuries. The "religion" with which most people are familiar -- with its tradition of divine mind before matter, Logos before creation -- is inextricable from the Greek metaphysics that preceded it.

Yes. Didn't really mean it in an accusatory fashion ,sorry if it seemed that way, but rather to distinguish the two for any who might be inclined to dismiss the deep roots of our civilization as merely religious. Many very modern and very intelligent people lament the lack of appreciation of the metaphysical foundations of so much that is good in our present world. Postmodernism cuts to those roots in so many areas from philosophies to art, literature, architecture and ever more so social policy. Personally I view it as destructive in most areas it touches, I particularly dislike the post ironic moral relativism it breeds. Anyway bigger topic and not for dragging through AH, I reckon....just responded to request for book recommendation. There are many others people could opt for, it was just recently in my mind.

PlaneSpeeking · 14-08-2018 12:35PM

TomSweeney wrote: »

Spot on , I like the way you think.
Check out this podcast

https://youtu.be/HYJFgyqs0sM

Heather was saying that when she was a little girl she was a real tomboy and preferred "boys" toys and doing typical boyish things.
She is now a grown married woman - straight with 2 children and is very happy that way.
Now she made the great point that nowadays (especially in North America) you have these "progressive" parents that if they have a daughter like this they will decide for her that she is trans.
Maybe start her on hormonal treatment ... Imagine the fucking DAMAGE that could be done !! ??
Cos these idiots want to use their kids as "diversity" points etc...

I thank God I was born in the early 70s and my mother was normal!

JohnMc1 · 14-08-2018 01:12PM

Averi Witty Survivor wrote: »

The posters who are celebrating this being banned are the same ones who never stop banging on about gender. Seems like they would love to study the topic full-time.

What's there to bang on about? If you have a penis you're a boy and if you have a vagina you're a girl. Anything else is between you and a psychiatrist.

Taytoland · 14-08-2018 01:40PM

batgoat wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

His whole critique of capitalism was nonsense and a failure to understand the fundamentals of human nature. That is why it doesn't work and all states which have implemented it have failed utterly and turn into dumps with less individual liberty.

But you don't actually understand anything about Marxist analyses, it can be extraordinarily beneficial to apply it to portions of history and has allowed for fresh insights into areas that needed it. You've literally thrown an incredibly important analyses of the French Revolution (seems fair to analyse along the lines of it being anti Capitalist because it was) and other parts of history because it uses a Marxist analyses when it can be entirely relevant.

Anyway, you've pretty much illustrated my point. You've argued about something you have no knowledge on and think a pretty mainstream area of history is nonsense. :P Reason being, I used a word that you don't like.

You are arguing that all wacky theories should have money spent on them to be taught in education. That is your opinion, I think you have to be concise in what courses are taught, which should be on a hierarchy in terms of importance. The fact that I think Marxism is nonsense isn't the absolute basis of my point, it's just where do you rank it in terms of importance.

Saying I don't understand Marxism is not correct.

batgoat · 14-08-2018 05:03PM

Taytoland wrote: »

You are arguing that all wacky theories should have money spent on them to be taught in education. That is your opinion, I think you have to be concise in what courses are taught, which should be on a hierarchy in terms of importance. The fact that I think Marxism is nonsense isn't the absolute basis of my point, it's just where do you rank it in terms of importance.

Saying I don't understand Marxism is not correct.

Nope, you don't understand a branch of historiography and labelling it as nonsense is ignorance...

LLMMLL · 14-08-2018 05:31PM

TomSweeney wrote: »

Well you tell us ? you keep on promoting it !

No I don’t.

LLMMLL · 14-08-2018 05:39PM

TomSweeney wrote: »

Are you implying that 0.5% of people are trans ?

1 in 200 seems a bit high - do you accept that many of these people are perhaps confused ? - maybe they are really gay . Not all of them of course but some.

And believe me that Rachel Dolzeal incident - we will be seeing a LOT more like that in the USA.

Why would I believe you about that? Do you have access to some stats or studies the rest of us don’t?

And finally, are you a troll account ?

No. Are you?

Taytoland · 14-08-2018 07:35PM

batgoat wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

You are arguing that all wacky theories should have money spent on them to be taught in education. That is your opinion, I think you have to be concise in what courses are taught, which should be on a hierarchy in terms of importance. The fact that I think Marxism is nonsense isn't the absolute basis of my point, it's just where do you rank it in terms of importance.

Saying I don't understand Marxism is not correct.

Nope, you don't understand a branch of historiography and labelling it as nonsense is ignorance...

Every example in which his ideas have been constructed into a state (communism) it has been a total disaster and lead to millions of deaths. The whole essence of communism requires forced coercion which is why it has never worked and a state has never prospered or it's citizens.

If that doesn't make it a nonsense analysis or ideology then I don't know what does. No to private property and public ownership of the means of production has failed. It failed in the 20th century and the 21st century.

batgoat · 14-08-2018 07:52PM

Taytoland wrote: »

Every example in which his ideas have been constructed into a state (communism) it has been a total disaster and lead to millions of deaths. The whole essence of communism requires forced coercion which is why it has never worked and a state has never prospered or it's citizens.

If that doesn't make it a nonsense analysis or ideology then I don't know what does. No to private property and public ownership of the means of production has failed. It failed in the 20th century and the 21st century.

Grand job, you've basically discounted a fair bit of historical analyses that you have zero knowledge of. The Marxist interpretation of the French Revolution tends to be the most respected. Analyses don't assume that some political ideology/philosophy is correct, it views them through the frame of it. You've assumed that you have knowledge on a part of a field, you clearly don't.

You'll also find that Karl Marx is very much much so respected in philosophy, political science and academia, you really can't ignore such an influential figure and viewpoint because of what followed. It's ignorant and pretty beneficial consider the likes of Marxism for framing and studying class struggles such as the French Revolution. It's not about transforming a piece of history into a state, it's considering motivations of the period eg class struggles.

Anyway, my overall point is. You got upset over a 'feminist analyses' when depending on what you're studying, it can make perfect sense. Eg when covering suffrage. You might not like that such approaches exist but labeling something as nonsense because you have no knowledge on it as you demonstrated above when you heard the name Marx, you labeled a large proportion of the French Revolution historical analyses as nonsense... You should totally jump on the history forum and inform them.

Debtocracy · 14-08-2018 08:22PM

I feel sorry for genuine transgender people these days. They’ve essentially become a target for the projected anger of the alt right. The new soundbite is that transgender people are mentally ill and people refer to gender dysphoria without having any idea of the diagnostic classification. Gender dysphoria refers to the distress associated with having a gender identity opposite to one’s biological sex, it does not pathologise the incongruence. Furthermore, treatment for such distress never attempts to encourage the person to accept their biological sex. This was tried decades ago with ineffective results.

On the other hand those who described themselves as ‘gender fluid’ are usually doing it for some form of sociocultural reinforcement. Same as those annoying people who described themselves as both extraverted and introverted. Behind it is a communication that I’m so special and unique I can’t be categorised.

JohnMc1 · 14-08-2018 09:05PM

Debtocracy wrote: »

I feel sorry for genuine transgender people these days. They’ve essentially become a target for the projected anger of the alt right. The new soundbite is that transgender people are mentally ill and people refer to gender dysphoria without having any idea of the diagnostic classification. Gender dysphoria refers to the distress associated with having a gender identity opposite to one’s biological sex, it does not pathologise the incongruence. Furthermore, treatment for such distress never attempts to encourage the person to accept their biological sex. This was tried decades ago with ineffective results.

On the other hand those who described themselves as ‘gender fluid’ are usually doing it for some form of sociocultural reinforcement. Same as those annoying people who described themselves as both extraverted and introverted. Behind it is a communication that I’m so special and unique I can’t be categorised.

I think its safe to say that the actual number of people with gender dysphoria is very low. For the rest of them its just the latest craze to feel special.

WinnyThePoo · 14-08-2018 09:13PM

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Debtocracy wrote: »

I feel sorry for genuine transgender people these days. They’ve essentially become a target for the projected anger of the alt right. The new soundbite is that transgender people are mentally ill and people refer to gender dysphoria without having any idea of the diagnostic classification. Gender dysphoria refers to the distress associated with having a gender identity opposite to one’s biological sex, it does not pathologise the incongruence. Furthermore, treatment for such distress never attempts to encourage the person to accept their biological sex. This was tried decades ago with ineffective results.

On the other hand those who described themselves as ‘gender fluid’ are usually doing it for some form of sociocultural reinforcement. Same as those annoying people who described themselves as both extraverted and introverted. Behind it is a communication that I’m so special and unique I can’t be categorised.

I think its safe to say that the actual number of people with gender dysphoria is very low. For the rest of them its just the latest craze to feel special.

You really are disgusting.

JohnMc1 · 14-08-2018 09:26PM

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

You really are disgusting.

You seriously think there isn't a "Look at me!!!" element to this? The genuine ones are more likely getting treatment. The Look at me crowd are one arguing over bathrooms.

WinnyThePoo · 14-08-2018 09:28PM

JohnMc1 wrote: »

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

You really are disgusting.

You seriously think there isn't a "Look at me!!!" element to this? The genuine ones are more likely getting treatment. The Look at me crowd are one arguing over bathrooms.

It's clearly something you have absolutely no knowledge of.

JohnMc1 · 14-08-2018 09:32PM

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

It's clearly something you have absolutely no knowledge of.

Whatever you say snowflake.

suicide_circus · 14-08-2018 09:42PM

there is certainly a level of ghoulish ideological explanation going on with transgender folk. and the stuff with kids is just dreadful.

WinnyThePoo · 14-08-2018 09:52PM

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Whatever you say snowflake.

I'd rather be snowflake than a moron.

JohnMc1 · 14-08-2018 09:54PM

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

I'd rather be snowflake than a moron.

If you believe you can choose your gender like you would which pair of socks to wear then you're the moron.

14-08-2018 09:55PM

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

I'd rather be snowflake than a moron.

In the vast majority of cases the two go hand in hand

Taytoland · 14-08-2018 09:57PM

batgoat wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Every example in which his ideas have been constructed into a state (communism) it has been a total disaster and lead to millions of deaths. The whole essence of communism requires forced coercion which is why it has never worked and a state has never prospered or it's citizens.

If that doesn't make it a nonsense analysis or ideology then I don't know what does. No to private property and public ownership of the means of production has failed. It failed in the 20th century and the 21st century.

Grand job, you've basically discounted a fair bit of historical analyses that you have zero knowledge of. The Marxist interpretation of the French Revolution tends to be the most respected. Analyses don't assume that some political ideology/philosophy is correct, it views them through the frame of it. You've assumed that you have knowledge on a part of a field, you clearly don't.

You'll also find that Karl Marx is very much much so respected in philosophy, political science and academia, you really can't ignore such an influential figure and viewpoint because of what followed. It's ignorant and pretty beneficial consider the likes of Marxism for framing and studying class struggles such as the French Revolution. It's not about transforming a piece of history into a state, it's considering motivations of the period eg class struggles.

Anyway, my overall point is. You got upset over a 'feminist analyses' when depending on what you're studying, it can make perfect sense. Eg when covering suffrage. You might not like that such approaches exist but labeling something as nonsense because you have no knowledge on it as you demonstrated above when you heard the name Marx, you labeled a large proportion of the French Revolution historical analyses as nonsense... You should totally jump on the history forum and inform them.

Again taking what I said completely out of context. My point was on priorities on education and what is more important in education and if all theories no matter how wacky like Marxism should be taught with state funding, regardless of how much influence it has on the world.

My argument was should creationism be funded for school courses alongside gender studies. My argument was if you choose one subject which is nonsense then you can't just discriminate against other subjects which are equally as bad on the nonsense scale.

Hungary Scrap Gender Studies Indoctrination Courses

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