Hungary Scrap Gender Studies Indoctrination Courses

meeeeh · 13-08-2018 05:00PM

B0jangles wrote: »

I know; the quoted goverment comment is ridiculously similar to the stuff the actual, genuine Nazis said about modern art and apparently that's not in the least bit disturbing because the Nazis only exist in history and that sort of thing can't possibly happen again don't you know...

I see where you are coming from but in this case I think another comparison is more appropriate. A lot of politicians from ex communist countries grew up in a system where different opinion was not desirable. They don't send people into gulags but often there is very little patience for opposing or plural viewpoints. Basically they are less extreme version of crowd they replaced. It doesn't help that social studies seem to be very popular with their own opponents.

batgoat · 13-08-2018 05:15PM

Taytoland wrote: »

Still got no answer from those who dispute this decision with if it was creationism would they think the same? Should all nonsense be taught in education?

Okay here's the women's studies course in ucc. Seems as legitimate as any other arts course. It's a specialist area like any other in academia.

https://www.ucc.ie/en/womensstudies/mainwomensstudies/

Formulate arguments that reflect a critical and comprehensive, interdisciplinary knowledge of feminist debates around social and cultural issues;
Communicate those arguments effectively both orally and in writing;
Apply concepts, theories and methodologies appropriately at postgraduate level;
Assess how differences (race, ethnicity, class, sexual identity, time, place, values etc.) inform theoretical positions;
Critically evaluate evidence drawn from existing research and scholarship;
Design and pursue independent research;
Utilise those transferable skills developed through engagement with the self-directed learning, research and academic writing aspects of the course.

Sample module info

Learning Outcomes: On successful completion of this module, students should be able to:
· Explore themes which connect first and second wave feminism.
· Identify issues in contemporary society of particular relevance to the lives of women.
· Analyse and critically assess historical and contemporary interventions designed to address gender inequality and present findings orally and in writing.
· Explore issues of gender in specific Irish and international documents.
· Apply a feminist analytical approach in research.

LLMMLL · 13-08-2018 05:35PM

batgoat wrote: »

Okay here's the women's studies course in ucc. Seems as legitimate as any other arts course. It's a specialist area like any other in academia.

https://www.ucc.ie/en/womensstudies/mainwomensstudies/

Sample module info

Ah here don’t be telling people what these courses actually teach. Facts and reality are not allowed on this thread.

Sal Butamol · 13-08-2018 05:35PM

I wouldn't necessarily fully go by the course description, departments are great at fluffing these things to make them look better than they really are, especially in the humanities.

batgoat · 13-08-2018 05:38PM

Sal Butamol wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily fully go by the course description, departments are great at fluffing these things to make them look better than they really are, especially in the humanities.

Ah so now the course description is lying? Is this just because you're not capable of showing what's wrong with that module description? I've generally found module descriptions to be pretty reliable and that one sounds no different to one from history or English modules..

s7ryf3925pivug · 13-08-2018 05:45PM

The posters who are celebrating this being banned are the same ones who never stop banging on about gender. Seems like they would love to study the topic full-time.

Sal Butamol · 13-08-2018 05:45PM

batgoat wrote: »

Ah so now the course description is lying? Is this just because you're not capable of showing what's wrong with that module description? I've generally found module descriptions to be pretty reliable and that one sounds no different to one from history or English modules..

I am saying they are not the be all and end all of what a course is like. I've worked at third-level for years, I have a PhD and have set and designed my own modules many times. I always try to give a realistic description of course content. I know of many lecturers that "sex-up" module content, particularly if it is an elective, and many who pay little attention to it and deviate from it quite a bit, depending on class size and other factors.

Stop getting carried away with yourself.

13-08-2018 05:47PM

batgoat wrote: »

Ah so now the course description is lying? Is this just because you're not capable of showing what's wrong with that module description? I've generally found module descriptions to be pretty reliable and that one sounds no different to one from history or English modules..

Because Lecturers will have the freedom to choose, and deliver content within any module in whatever manner they wish.

But in any case, the women's studies course in ucc, is aimed directly at women, so there is little need to fluff what the description says. It's a women's studies course rather than seeking to promote itself as a gender studies course (which would suggest a lack of bias or actually seeking to promote equality). Hence the focus on 1st/2nd wave feminism whose aims are far more justifiable as opposed to the more relevant 3rd/4th wave feminism which we're exposed to now. The module description does a fair job of showing the bias that would be inherent in the course, since Feminism is such a major part of it. Feminism which, naturally, seeks to excuse female responsibility and attach responsibility to the male gender for anything wrong in society (whether real or imagined).

13-08-2018 05:50PM

Averi Witty Survivor wrote: »

The posters who are celebrating this being banned are the same ones who never stop banging on about gender.

Who is celebrating that this was banned? Go on. Love to see you find the posts where anyone is jumping for joy.

Seems like they would love to study the topic full-time.

TBH I doubt I need to study it full-time, since my participation in threads on boards have given me plenty of opportunities to research the topic, and read about the different perspectives on the topic.

silverharp · 13-08-2018 05:55PM

Apply a feminist analytical approach in research.

reminds me of

251916-quote-being-a-scientologist-when-you-drive-past-an-accident-you-know-you-have-to-do-something-tom-cruise-55-85-61.jpg

batgoat · 13-08-2018 05:59PM

silverharp wrote: »

reminds me of

Go to history and you'll find Marxist analyses which are entirely legitimate and give pretty great perspectives on pieces of history such as the French Revolution. Guessing feminist analyses relate to theories in the field. Pretty standard for arts. So far, we've had examples from UCC and Trinity and no massive issues being shown by anyone...

The Legend Of Kira · 13-08-2018 06:02PM

Im not in favour of things being banned,, if there is a demand from people to do the course & they re willing to pay their own money to do it- its their money if they opt to spend it doing the course.

Sal Butamol · 13-08-2018 06:13PM

batgoat wrote: »

So far, we've had examples from UCC and Trinity and no massive issues being shown by anyone...

Yeah because they are going to flag these things in big red letters for all to see in advance.

How many third-level institutes have you worked in out of interest?

I remember at the start of my career a department head telling me in private that the gender studies department were a royal pain in the ass to deal with, that he would hold no meetings with said staff in his office and that he tried to conduct all business with said staff via email.

If they had to have a face-to-face meeting it was done in the staff canteen in public.

He tried to avoid them at all costs because if their history of **** stirring.

One wrong word and it you could take your pick of labels they'd be slapping you with as they marched off to file a complaint.

Many, many academics feel the same about these departments.

And they have infested third-level management so the rot is structural at this stage.

s7ryf3925pivug · 13-08-2018 06:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Who is celebrating that this was banned? Go on. Love to see you find the posts where anyone is jumping for joy.

TBH I doubt I need to study it full-time, since my participation in threads on boards have given me plenty of opportunities to research the topic, and read about the different perspectives on the topic.

Read the first post for example. First line of it even. :rolleyes:

13-08-2018 06:55PM

Averi Witty Survivor wrote: »

Read the first post for example. First line of it even. :rolleyes:

So, the people "celebrating" this ban is really just the OP?

GarIT · 13-08-2018 07:11PM

Creative83 wrote: »

WTF is "Gender Studies" and why do we need it?? Is this what is giving the extra letters in LGB

Nah, gender studies is like the KKK but for women instead of white people.

Gender studies is why masculinity is frowned upon rather than why being a gender and wanting to keep it is frowned upon.

Taytoland · 13-08-2018 07:13PM

batgoat wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Still got no answer from those who dispute this decision with if it was creationism would they think the same? Should all nonsense be taught in education?

Okay here's the women's studies course in ucc. Seems as legitimate as any other arts course. It's a specialist area like any other in academia.

https://www.ucc.ie/en/womensstudies/mainwomensstudies/

Formulate arguments that reflect a critical and comprehensive, interdisciplinary knowledge of feminist debates around social and cultural issues;
Communicate those arguments effectively both orally and in writing;
Apply concepts, theories and methodologies appropriately at postgraduate level;
Assess how differences (race, ethnicity, class, sexual identity, time, place, values etc.) inform theoretical positions;
Critically evaluate evidence drawn from existing research and scholarship;
Design and pursue independent research;
Utilise those transferable skills developed through engagement with the self-directed learning, research and academic writing aspects of the course.

Sample module info

Learning Outcomes: On successful completion of this module, students should be able to:
· Explore themes which connect first and second wave feminism.
· Identify issues in contemporary society of particular relevance to the lives of women.
· Analyse and critically assess historical and contemporary interventions designed to address gender inequality and present findings orally and in writing.
· Explore issues of gender in specific Irish and international documents.
· Apply a feminist analytical approach in research.

As legitimate as creationism and other such nonsense.

batgoat · 13-08-2018 07:16PM

Taytoland wrote: »

As legitimate as creationism and other such nonsense.

Do you think applying a Marxist analysis to history is like creationism?

Taytoland · 13-08-2018 07:19PM

batgoat wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

As legitimate as creationism and other such nonsense.

Do you think applying a Marxist analysis to history is like creationism?

Well given that Marxism is a giant pile of absolute unworkable bollocks it's not that far behind.

Galwayguy35 · 13-08-2018 07:23PM

TomSweeney wrote: »

I have never even interacted with her ...

MaryMcAuliffe4MaryMcAuliffe4's Tweets. Learn more

- How ironic.

Started following her there now just for the craic.

The tweets from her followers are painful to read, a lot of delicate little flowers there.

Grayson · 13-08-2018 07:28PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a BA in Finance and a MBA. I have NLP Practitioner certification along with a host of minor diplomas related to negotiation, interpersonal communication, cultural training etc. I also have a variety of programming related diplomas, and software engineering courses. And I, too, was trained to break theory down into practical considerations.

I think you'll find that most people who have attended formal third level education and worked beyond their initial qualifications (or desired industry) will have the same ability you describe above. The difference is how they perceive their results and whether they believe their perception is an absolute.

Strangely enough, it seems like people here like to make the assumption that we don't know what we're talking about even when we've actually written pages on the subject over years while debating it on boards. The area of Gender studies is not a new topic to boards. It has been discussed extensively on a number of threads over the years, with people referencing actual courses in the US or Europe, along with articles covering their own criticisms of the subject.

And then, there's the dismissive attitude that we must consider it to be indoctrination... and yet, here's the thing. Lecturers in a course teaching young adults (18-23) are presenting from a position of authority on the subject. Students expect the lecturers to be educated and knowledgeable about the subject matter, and few students are going to research a lecturers past attitudes on topics. The vast majority of students are going to attend lectures, and blindly accept what their lecturers say in class, because that determines their ability to pass the exams. The lecturers will correct their assignments and projects subject only to that lecturers opinion on the subject. The only time you're really going to get students arguing with Lecturers about course content is when they're actively encouraged to do so. (or when they appeal failed papers, and then the university will likely side with the lecturer on principle)

How do I know this? Well, like you as a student... but also through a decade of teaching at university level. I've taught MBA courses in China, Korea and Japan. I've also presented financial/business ethics classes in the UK with private business colleges.

So... indoctrination, no. But the beliefs of the lecturers on the subject matter of what they teach is important. It determines what students will be required to learn, how they approach the areas of assessment, and whether students will actually pass exams. It also determines whether students will receive recommendations from lecturers or the university itself when it comes to grants, scholarships, or employment applications associated with the University.

The truth is that Gender Studies is a very biased course with the recent history of being extremely pro-feminist, and intolerant of students who object. It's entirely possible that Gender studies will evolve into a subject that actually seeks to study gender practices in a unbiased manner, but that's not going to happen without criticism being allowed. Without it's use of questionable statistics or dodgy peer-reviewed material as fact. We should be encouraging that Gender studies programs be exposed to inspection, checking for any signs of either Misandry or Misogyny... seeking a fair and balanced viewpoint on the effects of Gender within society.

You've made a lot of assumptions there. You said that the lecturers are very biased but you presented no explanation. You said that there's a bias against students who object. But no evidence.

As someone who's studied you should know that if you want to make these assumptions you should provide evidence. And that evidence should be extensive. Have you seen this evidence or are you just assuming this is the case?
You mention that they use dodgy statistics. Have you seen any collated evidence of this? Any stats?

And even within just feminism there is discussion. There was first, second and third wave feminism. Each came from criticizing the previous generation. And within each movement there was/is a lot of disagreement.
Within women's studies specifically there's a huge range of disciplines represented. Historians, psychologists, sociologists, anthropologists etc.
And the area is worth studying. Like I mentioned before, gender plays a huge role in societies, both past and present. If we ignore it we're ignoring a huge part of the human experience.

If anyone here can show me good reason why that shouldn't be studied, I'll change my mind. Or if anyone here can present evidence that in the majority of places it's studied, it's studied incorrectly or provide evidence of widespread tampering with statistics, I'd be happy to acknowledge my mistake. But no-one's done that.

I think you're the only person to attempt to do this when you posted the article from the blaze. But that article willfully misrepresented what happened. If I hadn't happened to know about how those journals operate I might have thought differently.

batgoat · 13-08-2018 07:29PM

Taytoland wrote: »

Well given that Marxism is a giant pile of absolute unworkable bollocks it's not that far behind.

You'd be laughed out of the room by historians which is the thing. It's a perfectly legitimate form of historiography which just requires history to be viewed from a different perspective. Just like any branch of historiography. You couldn't for example study the French Revolution without at least looking at the Marxist historiography. It's one of a few on the topic but of significant importance for gaining an understanding.

Basically my point is, applying different types of analyses or schools of thought is completely legit in arts and not some evil propaganda.

13-08-2018 07:37PM

Grayson wrote: »

I think you're the only person to attempt to do this when you posted the article from the blaze. But that article willfully misrepresented what happened. If I hadn't happened to know about how those journals operate I might have thought differently.

Well, see, here's the thing. I know that you have been involved in many of the discussions regarding sexism, feminism, and Gender studies in the past here on boards (both in AH, and the Gentleman's club). We've argued these points before... which is why I'm not rushing off to produce links for criticisms of research or articles describing the bias in Gender Studies courses. You will, just as you have done with what I have provided, dismiss them as being incompatible with your view of things.

So, no, I'm not going to waste my time providing heaps of links and writing a long response to something you're going to ignore or dismiss out of hand.

And for anyone who is actually interested in finding those articles, references, and discussions, there is a handy search function on boards.

Taytoland · 13-08-2018 07:44PM

batgoat wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Well given that Marxism is a giant pile of absolute unworkable bollocks it's not that far behind.

You'd be laughed out of the room by historians which is the thing. It's a perfectly legitimate form of historiography which just requires history to be viewed from a different perspective. Just like any branch of historiography. You couldn't for example study the French Revolution without at least looking at the Marxist historiography. It's one of a few on the topic but of significant importance for gaining an understanding.

Basically my point is, applying different types of analyses or schools of thought is completely legit in arts and not some evil propaganda.

You would be correct it's history and I think it should be taught for the nonsense it is. Same way we teach about National Socialism in schools. The whole point is where do we stop with teaching ideas and should anything just go? You only have so much resources and time.

batgoat · 13-08-2018 07:48PM

Taytoland wrote: »

You would be correct it's history and I think it should be taught for the nonsense it is. Same way we teach about National Socialism in schools. The whole point is where do we stop with teaching ideas and should anything just go? You only have so much resources and time.

You're discounting a branch of historiography because it's Marxist. It's far from nonsense and not just Marxists utilise it... You're passing comment on various different areas of study which you don't even have a basic understanding of because it irks you as a concept. That's pretty silly.

Taytoland · 13-08-2018 07:56PM

batgoat wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

You would be correct it's history and I think it should be taught for the nonsense it is. Same way we teach about National Socialism in schools. The whole point is where do we stop with teaching ideas and should anything just go? You only have so much resources and time.

You're discounting a branch of historiography because it's Marxist. It's far from nonsense and not just Marxists utilise it... You're passing comment on various different areas of study which you don't even have a basic understanding of because it irks you as a concept. That's pretty silly.

His whole critique of capitalism was nonsense and a failure to understand the fundamentals of human nature. That is why it doesn't work and all states which have implemented it have failed utterly and turn into dumps with less individual liberty.

mvl · 13-08-2018 08:01PM

That's why I also think its poor to re-bring the same gender debate on this thread. My view is that all these measures target Orban's current blacklist, and little was said in here that can get me to change my mind.

But there is some type of information I am missing/intrigued about: I would want to ask if knowledgeable ppl here think that studying gendering for robots/human interaction might be affected by Orban's ban or not - does this qualify as Gender Studies ?!?
- This can be a domain I might find interesting to start a degree/diploma on in future

.

Ush1 · 13-08-2018 08:08PM

meeeeh wrote: »

In more creative areas of advertising or marketing you often have people with social science degrees. How many engineers are actually able to sell their own products?

The minds that created Facebook, Microsoft, etc.. were engineers.

batgoat · 13-08-2018 08:11PM

Taytoland wrote: »

His whole critique of capitalism was nonsense and a failure to understand the fundamentals of human nature. That is why it doesn't work and all states which have implemented it have failed utterly and turn into dumps with less individual liberty.

But you don't actually understand anything about Marxist analyses, it can be extraordinarily beneficial to apply it to portions of history and has allowed for fresh insights into areas that needed it. You've literally thrown an incredibly important analyses of the French Revolution (seems fair to analyse along the lines of it being anti Capitalist because it was) and other parts of history because it uses a Marxist analyses when it can be entirely relevant.

Anyway, you've pretty much illustrated my point. You've argued about something you have no knowledge on and think a pretty mainstream area of history is nonsense. :P Reason being, I used a word that you don't like.

LLMMLL · 13-08-2018 10:35PM

Sal Butamol wrote: »

Yeah because they are going to flag these things in big red letters for all to see in advance.

How many third-level institutes have you worked in out of interest?

I remember at the start of my career a department head telling me in private that the gender studies department were a royal pain in the ass to deal with, that he would hold no meetings with said staff in his office and that he tried to conduct all business with said staff via email.

If they had to have a face-to-face meeting it was done in the staff canteen in public.

He tried to avoid them at all costs because if their history of **** stirring.

One wrong word and it you could take your pick of labels they'd be slapping you with as they marched off to file a complaint.

Many, many academics feel the same about these departments.

And they have infested third-level management so the rot is structural at this stage.

As I said I looked at the research of the academic who had the most moderny feministy module in the Tcd course and her ACTUAL research is not even vaguely radically feministy.

Hungary Scrap Gender Studies Indoctrination Courses

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