Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

rugbyman · 11-08-2018 05:38PM

I just laboriously typed a long ish post and lost it

in Essence Rivegauche ,you certainly speak for me, you seem to annoy others ,who perhaps have seen the demise of unions over the years
Regards

rugbyman · 11-08-2018 05:40PM

L1011
this thread is inextricably linked to trade unions, to suggest someone should not post re unions seems strange
Regards

trellheim · 11-08-2018 05:47PM

but its nothing to do with the dispute its just anti EU pilots union whinging and banging on about VC etc in general.

As folks might know for example I am extremely hostile to pound-of-flesh, if you followed the Transdev strike posts some time ago . but the above posting style is just single voice

Where are the detailed discussions of the roster proposals etc - theres usually some on here who can answer

billy few mates · 11-08-2018 06:32PM

rugbyman wrote: »

I just laboriously typed a long ish post and lost it

in Essence Rivegauche ,you certainly speak for me, you seem to annoy others ,who perhaps have seen the demise of unions over the years
Regards

Phew...!

Brennans Row · 12-08-2018 03:22PM

Ryanair pilots protest in Frankfurt Airport last Friday (ksta).

An interesting take by a German Trade Union “No Landing Clearance for Irish social dumping”.

I have heard of the expression “Irish tax dumping” being used in Germany before but “Irish social dumping” is a new one for me.

A319er · 12-08-2018 03:29PM

I am very embarrassed that my country is accused of social dumping, tax haven status etc, why can't a great company like FR be a trailblazer for employees and customers? It took 30 years to be nice to customers so now it's the employees who made the airline so successful get a fair reward , ! You reap what you sow and I not mr O'Leary is witheld from any public appearance of late re strikes...speaks volumes to me..., listen peace will break out FR will grow , so all sides let's just be fair and reasonable, respect and dignity on all sides will resolve this

L1011 · 12-08-2018 03:39PM

rugbyman wrote: »

L1011
this thread is inextricably linked to trade unions, to suggest someone should not post re unions seems strange
Regards

You can post about Ryanair IR and unions. There were vast walls of text which were general rants and nothing to do with aviation and as such off topic

Bob24 · 12-08-2018 04:30PM

Brennans Row wrote: »

An interesting take by a German Trade Union “No Landing Clearance for Irish social dumping”.

I have heard of the expression “Irish tax dumping” being used in Germany before but “Irish social dumping” is a new one for me.

For reference “Dumping social” has been a French phrase for quite a while as well, and I suspect most Western continental European countries have something similar.

It is often associated to bringing workers with Estern European contracts to do work in Western European countries under the EU’s Posted Workers Directive (I.e. workers are for the most part paid salaries levels matching the country of their contract and not subject to social contributions / taxes / some employment laws of the country where the work is done, which is seen as unfair competition for local workers and businesses).

Things are a bit different in the context of the aviation industry but the idea is the same.

rivegauche · 13-08-2018 02:58PM

L1011 wrote: »

You are basing that on one fact-free PR statement, and nothing else.
The reduction in based craft in Dublin in winter has been done every year due to seasonal traffic. That is all they re-announced.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/ryanair-dublin-job-cuts-strike-12976241
Do Ryanair issue protective notice to Dublin Pilots every Winter to such a degree or at all.

Nevertheless, I hope both parties reach a resolution with which they are genuinely satisfied as an outcome of the mediation.

Bob24 · 13-08-2018 03:05PM

So the mediation is set to last “at least three days” (starting today) and both parties have been asked to refrain from making comments in the media during the process: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-dispute-mediation-to-take-at-least-three-days-1.3594495

IngazZagni · 13-08-2018 06:16PM

rivegauche wrote: »

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/ryanair-dublin-job-cuts-strike-12976241
Do Ryanair issue protective notice to Dublin Pilots every Winter to such a degree or at all

They absolutely don’t despite the Dublin base reducing every winter and that’s why this stinks. The Dublin base was planned to be 24 based aircraft before the strikes and it remains that way. What flights have been scaled back or rotations reversed? So far there are none as far as I can see.

I’ll ask a few questions. Have the Faro based pilots also received protective notice as that base reduces from 7 to about 2 aircraft in Winter?
Did the pilots of Girona or Shannon where operations were greatly scaled back or in Kerry, Oslo Rygge, Billund, Copenhagen or Glasgow where the bases have been or are about to be completely shut also received this protective notice? That’s a rhetorical question by the way as they haven’t. They were simply offered other bases to move to which is always the case in Ryanair. The protective notice is just a way to try and spread fear and divide. It’s a dirty tactic but not something that anyone should be surprised by.

In relation to disputes in other Countries. I see absolutely no reason why Ryanair can’t offer local contracts to its pilots just like Vueling, Norwegian, Easyjet and other low cost operators do.

rivegauche · 13-08-2018 09:16PM

IngazZagni wrote: »

The protective notice is just a way to try and spread fear and divide. It’s a dirty tactic but not something that anyone should be surprised by.

What is the appropriate response? Stand by impotently and accede to all demands while serving soft drinks and sandwiches to the picketers.

L1011 · 14-08-2018 06:46AM

rivegauche wrote: »

What is the appropriate response? Stand by impotently and accede to all demands while serving soft drinks and sandwiches to the picketers.

Not make a song and dance out of an annual event to try and convince people that it's something abnormal. The less well informed may fall for it

rivegauche · 14-08-2018 11:52AM

Protective notice is not an annual event. If you are saying it is an annual event then you are directly contradicting IngazZagni.
The people addressed by that protective notice are not the public, but rather the pilots and the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection.

This isn't even unprecedented; the LUAS drivers were served with protective notice back in 2016.

L1011 · 14-08-2018 11:57AM

The protective notice is a sham; the reduction is flights is annual.

Those who don't know how the airline works and has worked for years may believe its something different to normal.

People are being played by Ryanair PR here, unsurprisingly.

Under His Eye · 14-08-2018 11:59AM

What exactly is protective notice as I cannot find a legal definition of the term anywhere?

rivegauche · 14-08-2018 12:04PM

L1011 wrote: »

The protective notice is a sham; the reduction is flights is annual.

Those who don't know how the airline works and has worked for years may believe its something different to normal.

People are being played by Ryanair PR here, unsurprisingly.

Ryanair will comply with redundancy legislation. They will be able to dismiss these pilots without legal consequence therefore it is not a sham.
Lets hope the mediation goes well and the Board of Ryanair are given reason to reconsider their plans for the coming Winter season.

L1011 · 14-08-2018 12:05PM

rivegauche wrote: »

Ryanair will comply with redundancy legislation. They will be able to dismiss these pilots without legal consequence therefore it is not a sham.
Lets hope the mediation goes well and the Board of Ryanair are given reason to reconsider their plans for the coming Winter season.

You really aren't getting this are you?

There will be no fewer flights this year than were already planned. The reductions will be in line with every other year, at every other base

Also, making qualified and type rated pilots redundant when you are in the worst manpower crisis the industry has ever seen can be filed under "ideas that will seriously damage the company" along with some of your other suggestions. You make repeated nose/face spite suggestions. They may as well hand the pilots to Norwegian/IAG-to-be.

rivegauche · 14-08-2018 12:13PM

You really aren't getting it that if Ryanair have a workforce that are constantly agitating they will take whatever steps are within their control to address the problem. If flights disappear off the winter schedule and don't reappear for the summer schedule then there is no way the Labour Court can say that the pilots were unfairly dismissed.
Even if they were unfairly dismissing employees the pilots would be obliged to mitigate their loss while waiting for their date in the labour court and if by some remote chance Ryanair were found to have dismissed a pilot unfairly the Labour Court has a track record of not awarding punitive costs(outside of the equality legislation).

john boye · 14-08-2018 12:15PM

rivegauche wrote: »

Ryanair will comply with redundancy legislation. They will be able to dismiss these pilots without legal consequence therefore it is not a sham.
Lets hope the mediation goes well and the Board of Ryanair are given reason to reconsider their plans for the coming Winter season.

I don't know how anyone with half a notion of how the company works could so blindly believe every bit of nonsense they put out. It makes me question how genuinely you actually believe what you're posting here

rivegauche · 14-08-2018 12:17PM

I believe and I have seen that Ryanair will work to their own advantage to the absolute limits of what is legally allowable and practically possible.

L1011 · 14-08-2018 12:18PM

rivegauche wrote: »

You really aren't getting it that if Ryanair have a workforce that are constantly agitating they will take whatever steps are within their control to address the problem. If flights disappear off the winter schedule and don't reappear for the summer schedule then there is no way the Labour Court can say that the pilots were unfairly dismissed.
Even if they were unfairly dismissing employees the pilots would be obliged to mitigate their loss while waiting for their date in the labour court and if by some remote chance Ryanair were found to have dismissed a pilot unfairly the Labour Court has a track record of not awarding punitive costs(outside of the equality legislation).

The flights that are "dissapearing" have always been removed in the winter. Pilots have annual flight time restrictions, you use each pilot you have less in the quieter times so you actually have enough pilots to operate the summer schedule

Again, you not having an iota of knowledge about the industry is obvious.

Your suggestions are actually so dangerous to the company that I think you'd accuse yourself of being an IALPA rep if you understood them!

rivegauche · 14-08-2018 12:30PM

You keep saying the same thing as if I don't actually understand what you are saying. You on the other hand don't appear to understand that Ryanair will do what is necessary to protect the company and will comply with law along with all the adequate documentation to prove the jobs don't exist anymore when they dismiss these employees. Hopefully the employees see sense in the meantime and the Management and Board of Directors as a result change their attitude with regard to the future of the Dublin base.

L1011 · 14-08-2018 12:31PM

rivegauche wrote: »

Ryanair will do what is necessary to protect the company and will comply with law along with all the adequate documentation to prove the jobs don't exist anymore when they dismiss these employees. Hopefully the employees see sense in the meantime and the Management and Board of Directors as a result change their attitude with regard to the future of the Dublin base.

You keep repeating this as if it makes sense.

Give up - you don't understand the industry and have a gripe with unions. We all know that. You don't add anything to the discussion.

rivegauche · 14-08-2018 12:47PM

Fact: At the moment a lot of pilots who are agitating against their Employer, Ryanair have been put on protective leave. By start of winter season these employees will either be released by the company or the protective notice will be lifted, or extended.

Planes are not like Trams. Planes can be based at another base or disposed of within a very short period of time. IALPA do not have the same negotiating position as SIPTU had with the RPA/LUAS and only foolhardy arrogance would lead them to believe that they have their employer "over a barrel".

I was in Hahn waiting for a delayed flight a few weeks ago(thanks Guys). As it was quiet with nothing going on I asked the Ryanair service staff what happens in October when the flights move to FRA. This was July and they had no idea what they were going to be doing in October. Tell me again how Ryanair isn't willing or able to turn peoples' lives on end in pursuit of their business objectives and you can't say that Ryanair might not view a temporary retrenchment from Dublin in their long term best interests if remaining there means being subject to ongoing industrial conflict. Each cancelled flight is potentially a loss of €46750 to Ryanair for EU261 compensation alone at a time of year when they are selling a larger portion of the flights on their planes for €19.99.

L1011 · 14-08-2018 12:52PM

Where are they going to get replacement pilots from? Don't post that desperate hiring ad - it just shows they can't get them

You haven't got a clue about the aviation industry and seem to think it's the same as whatever industry you work in. You are filing this thread with babble and nonsense

LuckyLloyd · 14-08-2018 12:53PM

Ideological nonsense - and an interesting window into how some people hope this will play out. That Ryanair will crush striking workers in some new unparalleled way that Aer Lingus, Transdev or CIE have been unable to in the past. Ryanair is a supposed bastion of something for people, and their present difficulties shatter that illusion.

The outcome of mediation will be very interesting indeed.

rivegauche · 14-08-2018 12:56PM

L1011 wrote: »

Where are they going to get replacement pilots from? Don't post that desperate hiring ad - it just shows they can't get them

You haven't got a clue about the aviation industry and seem to think it's the same as whatever industry you work in. You are filing this thread with babble and nonsense

Who wants flight officer and captain positions in Western Europe with promotion opportunities or at the very least excellent CV padding value at or above market rates on 737 aircraft which doesn't involve remote work?

rivegauche · 14-08-2018 12:59PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Ideological nonsense

Ryanair are involved in anything but idealogical nonsense. They are the archetypal cold, hard money making machine that will endure quarter after quarter of pain to get to the business operating model that they want to be.

L1011 · 14-08-2018 01:03PM

rivegauche wrote: »

Who wants flight officer and captain positions in Western Europe with promotion opportunities or at the very least excellent CV padding value at or above market rates on 737 aircraft which doesn't involve remote work?

Norwegian. Where Ryanair have been losing pilots to for quite some time. Dublin base and all. Or they can do a new TR, as they had to do to join Ryanair anyway

Ryanair are not an attractive place to work as a pilot and this PR nonsense doesn't make it any better - although anyone who understands whats going in knows its nonsense. Remember that Ryanair have been cancelling flights (individually and entire route curtailments) unaffected by strikes due to general staffing shortages for some time.

If Ryanair lay off pilots in Dublin they won't be able to even operate the existing "reduced" schedule (due to flight time restrictions) and they won't get enough new pilots to operate the S19 schedule.

Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

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