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Why the north outside EU changes everything for the island

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    #332
    Ardan101
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭Ardan101


    We will always be going backwards, because of a hard truth we never acknowledge. We will not govern ourselves first the Pope now the EU. Lets be honest the Pope faze didn't work out to well for us, unless you are a hypocrite. Speaking of which while I type this in English and finish watching coronation street and chat to my friends over the internet wondering why every advert has to scream 'made in Ireland' (we got an identity crisis or something!). I wish our neighbours all the best and if they need a hand in the future I will be a true christian and provide it.


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    #333
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Ardan101 wrote: »
    We will always be going backwards, because of a hard truth we never acknowledge. We will not govern ourselves first the Pope now the EU. Lets be honest the Pope faze didn't work out to well for us, unless you are a hypocrite. Speaking of which while I type this in English and finish watching coronation street and chat to my friends over the internet wondering why every advert has to scream 'made in Ireland' (we got an identity crisis or something!). I wish our neighbours all the best and if they need a hand in the future I will be a true christian and provide it.

    If you need something to help you with the comedown I know a fella who can sort you out.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #334
    Mongfinder General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭Mongfinder General


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Sure. The 26 joining the commonwealth as a precurser to a UI. Then rejoining, and no border at all on the island, and the damage to social and economic cohesion on the island is minimised. It solves the unsolvable in the Brexit negotiations, and permits a geniune, good for both sides, soft Brexit deal to be agreed. The 26 has moved well on from the England as the bad guy opressor and exploiting empire bully motif, and has to be pragmatic given that some form of Brexit is happening. That it restores a UI, even if not the independent republic (which is only a trimming anyway, and not integral to real life), would be a good thing for everyone. A final solution at last.

    I’m aware that crack cocaine addiction is an all Island issue. You need to get off crack. That is the only conclusion that I can draw from your post


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    #335
    PeaQueue
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭PeaQueue


    titan18 wrote: »
    bear1 wrote:
    Both sides have to agree.


    Referendum though or a Dail vote? I'd hope for the first really.
    Typical Free State attitude. The thing is it'd not be about the North simply joining the South. It'd be about reimagining Ireland for the future of all it's people across the island. When it does happen (reunification), the change to ireland will be felt across the whole country as it'd completely shake up the Dail and might even shake a few people out of their 'I'm alright Jack' attitude to their fellow countrymen.


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    #336
    Taytoland
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Taytoland


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    A final solution at last.

    We will not be going backwards. We will integrate further in the European project and this will help protect us from our troublesome neighbour.
    While others leave.


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    #337
    Stupify
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭Stupify


    Do any of us even really want a UI at this stage? The north would be a leech on our economy. I actually wouldn't mind a hard border at this stage, it won't hurt us too much in the long run.


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    #338
    PeaQueue
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭PeaQueue


    Stupify wrote: »
    Do any of us even really want a UI at this stage? The north would be a leech on our economy. I actually wouldn't mind a hard border at this stage, it won't hurt us too much in the long run.
    "I'm alright Jack"


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    #339
    Stupify
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭Stupify


    PeaQueue wrote: »
    "I'm alright Jack"

    And why should we not be looking out for ourselves here? It definitely wouldn't be minimal effort on our part to bear the burden of a united Ireland.


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    #340
    PeaQueue
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭PeaQueue


    Stupify wrote: »
    PeaQueue wrote: »
    "I'm alright Jack"

    And why should we not be looking out for ourselves here?
    So just f**k anyone north of the border? You consider yourself Irish? 
    I suppose it worked for the likes of you in the 20's and again in the 70's.


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    #341
    Stupify
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭Stupify


    PeaQueue wrote: »
    So just f**k anyone north of the border? You consider yourself Irish? 
    I suppose it worked for the likes of you in the 20's and again in the 70's.

    Ah yeah I am Irish, does that mean I need to support a United Ireland is it?


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    #342
    PeaQueue
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭PeaQueue


    Stupify wrote: »
    PeaQueue wrote: »
    So just f**k anyone north of the border? You consider yourself Irish? 
    I suppose it worked for the likes of you in the 20's and again in the 70's.

    Ah yeah I am Irish, does that mean I need to support a United Ireland is it?
    I would have thought anyone that would describe themselves as Irish would refer to the whole island as opposed to just one part. Maybe you see your self as more 'southern irish' or did you tick 'free stater' in the census form?


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    #343
    Stupify
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭Stupify


    PeaQueue wrote: »
    I would have thought anyone that would describe themselves as Irish would refer to the whole island as opposed to just one part. Maybe you see your self as more 'southern irish' or did you tick 'free stater' in the census form?

    I see myself as from the Republic of Ireland and the island of Ireland, that doesn't mean I want a United Ireland though, is there a problem with that?


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    #344
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    PeaQueue wrote: »
    I would have thought anyone that would describe themselves as Irish would refer to the whole island as opposed to just one part.

    If so, then is rejoining the UK, as a united ireland, with a devolved local govt in Dublin not the way to make the island one again, and the option that truly is open to Eireans if they a genuinely commited to staying as close to the north, economically and socially, as possible.
    The Eu project kept a certain commonality between the two over the last 40 years. The peace process advanced it further. But now Brexit is a serious threat to that. Which no one really foresaw. But given that it has happened, Eire must reassess this rejoining option as the optimum choice in these new circumstances.


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    #345
    droidman123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭droidman123


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    If so, then is rejoining the UK, as a united ireland, with a devolved local govt in Dublin not the way to make the island one again, and the option that truly is open to Eireans if they a genuinely commited to staying as close to the north, economically and socially, as possible.
    The Eu project kept a certain commonality between the two over the last 40 years. The peace process advanced it further. But now Brexit is a serious threat to that. Which no one really foresaw. But given that it has happened, Eire must reassess this rejoining option as the optimum choice in these new circumstances.

    "Rejoing the uk"? We never actually joined them in the first place,so how could we "rejoin" them?


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    #346
    PeaQueue
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭PeaQueue


    Stupify wrote: »
    PeaQueue wrote: »
    I would have thought anyone that would describe themselves as Irish would refer to the whole island as opposed to just one part. Maybe you see your self as more 'southern irish' or did you tick 'free stater' in the census form?

    I see myself as from the Republic of Ireland and the island of Ireland, that doesn't mean I want a United Ireland though, is there a problem with that?
    Aye, you're a partitionist the sort that probably turned a blind eye to what was going on up in the north because it didn't affect you. Sure you were ok so the ppl in the north can Fck off. Free stater.


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    #347
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    PeaQueue wrote: »
    I would have thought anyone that would describe themselves as Irish would refer to the whole island as opposed to just one part. Maybe you see your self as more 'southern irish' or did you tick 'free stater' in the census form?

    When you roll out the Free Stater label you've lost the argument. The Northerners didn't do too much between the 20s and the 70s to improve their circumstances.
    Having said that I dont agree with this idea that the Six Counties would be a burden on the Republic. As long as unification was an agreed act I would be optimistic. However if there was a simmering Civil War between Loyalists and Republicans then millions would go down the tubes in security costs. There is ample potential in agriculture, I.T. Tourism Foreign Investment etc to maintain and improve the all island economy


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    #348
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    PeaQueue wrote: »
    Aye, you're a partitionist the sort that probably turned a blind eye to what was going on up in the north because it didn't affect you. Sure you were ok so the ppl in the north can Fck off. Free stater.

    There has always been that group. And at the other end of the spectrum, those for whom restoration of a 32 county entity matters and is still unfinished business from 1922.
    What has changed with this Brexit rabbit out of the hat for both though, is that now, for the Im all right Jack person, self interest does now lead to maintaining the closest links with the north. And similarly for the most independence motivated person, compromising and having a 32 county Ireland at the price of being part of the UK, now also makes sense.
    So for both sides, while it goes against 100 years of received wisdom, dogma, and side choosing, it is, in its core, a very strongly attractive option.


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    #349
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Edgware wrote: »
    When you roll out the Free Stater label you've lost the argument. The Northerners didn't do too much between the 20s and the 70s to improve their circumstances.
    Having said that I dont agree with this idea that the Six Counties would be a burden on the Republic. As long as unification was an agreed act I would be optimistic. However if there was a simmering Civil War between Loyalists and Republicans then millions would go down the tubes in security costs. There is ample potential in agriculture, I.T. Tourism Foreign Investment etc to maintain and improve the all island economy

    Those downsides only exist in the 6 joining tge 26 option. Not in the 26 joining the 6 and the UK.


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    #350
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    If so, then is rejoining the UK, as a united ireland, with a devolved local govt in Dublin not the way to make the island one again, and the option that truly is open to Eireans if they a genuinely commited to staying as close to the north, economically and socially, as possible.
    The Eu project kept a certain commonality between the two over the last 40 years. The peace process advanced it further. But now Brexit is a serious threat to that. Which no one really foresaw. But given that it has happened, Eire must reassess this rejoining option as the optimum choice in these new circumstances.

    Nice try mogg


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    #351
    mickoneill31
    Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭mickoneill31


    Stupify wrote: »
    I see myself as from the Republic of Ireland and the island of Ireland, that doesn't mean I want a United Ireland though, is there a problem with that?

    Id like a united Ireland. But there's a lot of backwards thinking up there, just look at the DUP (and by idiots down here who use the term free stater) so I don't see it being feasible any time soon.


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    #352
    Taytoland
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Taytoland


    Edgware wrote: »
    PeaQueue wrote: »
    I would have thought anyone that would describe themselves as Irish would refer to the whole island as opposed to just one part. Maybe you see your self as more 'southern irish' or did you tick 'free stater' in the census form?

    When you roll out the Free Stater label you've lost the argument. The Northerners didn't do too much between the 20s and the 70s to improve their circumstances.
    Having said that I dont agree with this idea that the Six Counties would be a burden on the Republic. As long as unification was an agreed act I would be optimistic. However if there was a simmering Civil War between Loyalists and Republicans then millions would go down the tubes in security costs. There is ample potential in agriculture, I.T.  Tourism Foreign Investment etc to maintain and improve the all island economy
    That's a certain.


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    #353
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,048 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Stupify wrote: »
    Do any of us even really want a UI at this stage? The north would be a leech on our economy. I actually wouldn't mind a hard border at this stage, it won't hurt us too much in the long run.
    The big difference is the North isn't attracting much foreign investment.

    I can remember when the roads up there were so much better than ours.

    Derry is a little bigger than Galway. But we've got the M6 and the M17/M18. And they've got a higher population density.

    The UK is talking about upgrading parts of the A6 to dual carriageway

    With more investment they could catch up to us, in time. At partition the three north east counties had 90% of the island's industrial output. Now it's very different.


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    #354
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stupify wrote: »
    Do any of us even really want a UI at this stage? The north would be a leech on our economy. I actually wouldn't mind a hard border at this stage, it won't hurt us too much in the long run.


    It would hurt the border Counties, economically.
    Not as much as it would hurt Northern Ireland - but it would hurt.
    There's an amazing amount of cross border trade.

    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    If so, then is rejoining the UK, as a united ireland, with a devolved local govt in Dublin not the way to make the island one again, and the option that truly is open to Eireans if they a genuinely commited to staying as close to the north, economically and socially, as possible.
    The Eu project kept a certain commonality between the two over the last 40 years. The peace process advanced it further. But now Brexit is a serious threat to that. Which no one really foresaw. But given that it has happened, Eire must reassess this rejoining option as the optimum choice in these new circumstances.


    Or, y'know - Northern Ireland could consider he Democratic will of its own people, who voted to remain in the EU - and decide whether they want to remain part of the EU by joining Éire, or stay part of the UK.


    Because Ireland is under no obligation to change its membership of the EU because some Loyalists want to have their cake, and eat it.

    The people of Northern Ireland should now have a choice about what they want to do.

    They wanted to remain part of the EU.
    England said "NO".
    So, now, England is refusing to respect the wishes of, not one, but two of the regions.


    It's only reasonable that some people would want a choice between the EU, and Britain.
    That choice, however, does not include expecting their neighbours to jump off the same cliff they themselves voted against jumping off....


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    #355
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,331 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    mickoneill31 wrote: »
    Id like a united Ireland. But there's a lot of backwards thinking up there, just look at the DUP (and by idiots down here who use the term free stater) so I don't see it being feasible any time soon.
    Ironically, the backward thinking of the DUP on the Brexit question has done more to further the prospects of a united Ireland and the dissolution of the union with Great Britain than the IRA managed in 25 years of gunplay.


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    #356
    Stupify
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭Stupify


    PeaQueue wrote: »
    Aye, you're a partitionist the sort that probably turned a blind eye to what was going on up in the north because it didn't affect you. Sure you were ok so the ppl in the north can Fck off. Free stater.

    Not a free stater, any other labels for me?

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057819234

    This thread discussed the topic of the costs of reunification, do you realise the costs we would have to bear PeaQueue? Why do you think we should pay these costs?


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    #357
    Stupify
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭Stupify


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It would hurt the border Counties, economically.
    Not as much as it would hurt Northern Ireland - but it would hurt.
    There's an amazing amount of cross border trade.

    I did say in the long run, of course short-term there would be damage to the border counties. I don't want a hard border though, as long as some trade deal can be hashed out to our benefit then I'm all for open borders and free trade between us, but we should not capitulate to British demands just to keep a border open with the North.


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    #358
    Stupify
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭Stupify


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    The big difference is the North isn't attracting much foreign investment.

    I can remember when the roads up there were so much better than ours.

    Derry is a little bigger than Galway. But we've got the M6 and the M17/M18. And they've got a higher population density.

    The UK is talking about upgrading parts of the A6 to dual carriageway

    With more investment they could catch up to us, in time. At partition the three north east counties had 90% of the island's industrial output. Now it's very different.

    They could absolutely catch up to us, and I wouldn't begrudge them that one bit, I would celebrate it in fact.

    But should we be the ones paying for these infrastructure upgrades? Because the amount of investment needed is significant.


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    #359
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,331 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Stupify wrote: »
    They could absolutely catch up to us, and I wouldn't begrudge them that one bit, I would celebrate it in fact.

    But should we be the ones paying for these infrastructure upgrades? Because the amount of investment needed is significant.
    Who's "we"? The whole point of a united Ireland is that "we" is everyone in Ireland. Taxes paid in Antrim would support expenditure in Kerry, and taxes paid in Kerry would simultaneously support expenditure in Antrim. It's likely that for a number of years at least there would be net flows into (former) NI, but every country has net revenue flows from one part to another.


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    #360
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,315 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    If so, then is rejoining the UK, as a united ireland, with a devolved local govt in Dublin not the way to make the island one again, and the option that truly is open to Eireans if they a genuinely commited to staying as close to the north, economically and socially, as possible.
    The Eu project kept a certain commonality between the two over the last 40 years. The peace process advanced it further. But now Brexit is a serious threat to that. Which no one really foresaw. But given that it has happened, Eire must reassess this rejoining option as the optimum choice in these new circumstances.

    Eireans?


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    #361
    Stupify
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭Stupify


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Who's "we"? The whole point of a united Ireland is that "we" is everyone in Ireland. Taxes paid in Antrim would support expenditure in Kerry, and taxes paid in Kerry would simultaneously support expenditure in Antrim. It's likely that for a number of years at least there would be net flows into (former) NI, but every country has net revenue flows from one part to another.

    We is the Republic, a United Ireland would cause us a significant reduction in our standard of living. It's not just net flows, we would have to take on NIs national debt also.


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