Hurling V Football

cms88 · 30-07-2018 10:47AM

Warper wrote: »

Huge shock?? 2 Div 1 teams, i think the bookies had Kildare at 6-4 and Mayo 8-13 on the day, if thats a huge shock in your mind well............

Carlow a Div 4 team beat Kildare a Div 1 earlier in the year. When's the last time anytime similar happened in hurling?

mattser · 30-07-2018 10:48AM

cms88 wrote: »

I wouldn't waste your time. There's nothing more deluded than a hurling snob

No snobbery. Just people giving an opinion, and not reducing themselves to smartassery.

FrancieBrady · 30-07-2018 10:52AM

I think it is hard to suggest that hurling is a better game in general. It is a better game when it comes to a handful of top games without as doubt.

And that is the reason it is where it is as a game.

Now as it becomes more and more high scoring I find as a neutral that I have a tendency to switch off until it gets down to the business end of the game - the last 15 minutes.
I can't think of another sport were I would do that as a neutral.

robbiezero · 30-07-2018 11:07AM

A problem for football that has really been highlighted by this years hurling championship is the out-dated provincial championships.
By the time the super-8s came around people had a pain in their hole from one-sided games, a septic Munster and Leinster championship. There were some poor hurling games too particularly in the Leinster group, but they get quickly forgotten about amidst so many competitive games. Football badly needs a tiered championship and to get rid of the provincial championships.

Hurling also needs rid of provincial championships.
1) They are now unfair as it is much easier to qualify in Leinster
2) They are fairly worthless. What use is Corks Munster championship win now.

robbiezero · 30-07-2018 11:14AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think it is hard to suggest that hurling is a better game in general. It is a better game when it comes to a handful of top games without as doubt.

And that is the reason it is where it is as a game.

Now as it becomes more and more high scoring I find as a neutral that I have a tendency to switch off until it gets down to the business end of the game - the last 15 minutes.
I can't think of another sport were I would do that as a neutral.

And would you watch the full 70 of say Fermanagh vs Monaghan?

FrancieBrady · 30-07-2018 11:21AM

robbiezero wrote: »

And would you watch the full 70 of say Fermanagh vs Monaghan?

That was a fascinating match this year.

Yes it was defensive, but that can have an attraction too.

One of the reasons I enjoy soccer is that it is more formally tactical. That can be boring for some, but I enjoy it mostly. Rugby too for the same reason.

Hurling can be a frenzy of scoring, end to end stuff, but essentially it is about who wins the last 15-10 minute shoot out. As a neutral I am fully tuned into those minutes and not really engaged with the earlier stuff.

Watched a bit of basketball in the states and the crowds treated that game similarly. Sit in the bars having drinks and meals during the game and only really engage for the last bit.

Bridge93 · 30-07-2018 11:24AM

To add another layer to that depth of winners debate:

Since the turn of the century there have been 10 sides who competed in the hurling semi finals. The football equivalent has seen 15 sides which might be 16 if Monaghan win this weekend. There is a further 7 sides who've played at the quarter final stage. So 23 of 33 participating sides have played in the All Ireland series this century.
The depth at that level below is certainly deeper in football. Football is suffering currently from what hurling did until recently with Dublin playing the role of Kilkenny

robbiezero · 30-07-2018 11:24AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That was a fascinating match this year.

Yes it was defensive, but that can have an attraction too.

One of the reasons I enjoy soccer is that it is more formally tactical. That can be boring for some, but I enjoy it mostly. Rugby too for the same reason.

Hurling can be a frenzy of scoring, end to end stuff, but essentially it is about who wins the last 15-10 minute shoot out. As a neutral I am fully tuned into those minutes and not really engaged with the earlier stuff.

Watched a bit of basketball in the states and the crowds treated that game similarly. Sit in the bars having drinks and meals during the game and only really engage for the last bit.

Each to their own I guess. I thought it was dreadful. I don't mind defensive football once there is some semblance of an attacking plan with it even if just counter-attacking on turnovers, which is why I hate watching the likes of Fermanagh and Carlow.

FrancieBrady · 30-07-2018 11:30AM

robbiezero wrote: »

Each to their own I guess. I thought it was dreadful. I don't mind defensive football once there is some semblance of an attacking plan with it even if just counter-attacking on turnovers, which is why I hate watching the likes of Fermanagh and Carlow.

Fermanagh's winning score came from an attacking counter move because as a game/competition it wasn't dead until the final kick of the game.

I wasn't neutral at that game

but it was in the balance for the duration just as the two hurling games this weekend were.
They are equally attractive as competitive games in their own way.
the problem is that hurling is only competitive among a handful of teams and neutrals only really engage with it at the end of the championship.

The first round of the football championship can have some great games.

deaddonkey15 · 30-07-2018 11:38AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fermanagh's winning score came from an attacking counter move because as a game/competition it wasn't dead until the final kick of the game.

I wasn't neutral at that game but it was in the balance for the duration just as the two hurling games this weekend were.
They are equally attractive as competitive games in their own way.
the problem is that hurling is only competitive among a handful of teams and neutrals only really engage with it at the end of the championship.

The first round of the football championship can have some great games.

In Ulster and Connacht maybe. But games with 2 Ulster sides slogging it out in the rain up in Clones don't live long in the memory.

There's some great games in the early rounds of the hurling too.

Akrasia · 30-07-2018 11:39AM

cms88 wrote: »

Really? :rolleyes:

Limerick beat Kilkenny for the first time in almost 45 years only a few weeks ago. Waterford beat them last year for the first time in 50 years. So any given day every 40 decades or so...

Limerick would have hardly ever played Kilkenny in the championship, up until 2005, they had only ever met each other in all ireland finals.
Couldn't be arsed looking up the league statistics between them

FrancieBrady · 30-07-2018 11:42AM

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

In Ulster and Connacht maybe. But games with 2 Ulster sides slogging it out in the rain up in Clones don't live long in the memory.

There's some great games in the early rounds of the hurling too.

I don't go to any sport expecting memorable games all the time. Championships are a process.
Memorable games are a bonus and hurling seem to trade on a few memorable games at the tail end of their championship.

And that as I said is it's abiding problem.

I do wish they could address that as it is a great game in essence.

Akrasia · 30-07-2018 11:47AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't go to any sport expecting memorable games all the time. Championships are a process.
Memorable games are a bonus and hurling seem to trade on a few memorable games at the tail end of their championship.

And that as I said is it's abiding problem.

I do wish they could address that as it is a great game in essence.

I don't know about that. Every single munster hurling championship game this year was intense and enthralling. There might have been a few one sided contests in the Leinster championship and qualifiers, but to say the competition only gets going at the end isn't true.

Davys Fits · 30-07-2018 11:47AM

Just becasue some counties dont play hurling shouldnt take from the game. Is rugby any lesser a game because half the world doesnt play it?
People from football counites like to point out that so few teams play at the top level yet what are their own counties doing to change that? Most of the counties north of the Galway Dublin line are too busy trying to make it in football so I dont expect much to change either in these counties.

FrancieBrady · 30-07-2018 11:51AM

Davys Fits wrote: »

Just becasue some counties dont play hurling shouldnt take from the game. Is rugby any lesser a game because half the world doesnt play it?
People from football counites like to point out that so few teams play at the top level yet what are their own counties doing to change that? Most of the counties north of the Galway Dublin line are too busy trying to make it in football so I dont expect much to change either in these counties.

Nobody says it 'takes from the game'.

I think the claim is that hurling is a better game, and it is.
But drill down into that and it is only better at the top skill level and there are very few at that level on a country wide basis.

That is it's problem.

deaddonkey15 · 30-07-2018 11:52AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't go to any sport expecting memorable games all the time. Championships are a process.
Memorable games are a bonus and hurling seem to trade on a few memorable games at the tail end of their championship.

And that as I said is it's abiding problem.

I do wish they could address that as it is a great game in essence.

What problem? Having good games at the business end of the competition? Isn't that exactly what should happen in any sport in any competition?

The Munster Championship this year has been throwing up great games all summer.

FrancieBrady · 30-07-2018 11:58AM

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

What problem? Having good games at the business end of the competition? Isn't that exactly what should happen in any sport in any competition?

The Munster Championship this year has been throwing up great games all summer.

And how many truly engaged with the M championship, is the point.

Hurling has a limited playing base and there is a reason for that. And it is the same reason I gave up playing golf. To get any good at it or to get to a level I could enjoy playing it took too much investment of time. So I stopped annoying myself and am content to watch.

I don't ever want hurling to stop btw, I am just pointing out why it is where it is.

deaddonkey15 · 30-07-2018 12:14PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And how many truly engaged with the M championship, is the point.

Hurling has a limited playing base and there is a reason for that. And it is the same reason I gave up playing golf. To get any good at it or to get to a level I could enjoy playing it took too much investment of time. So I stopped annoying myself and am content to watch.

I don't ever want hurling to stop btw, I am just pointing out why it is where it is.

Whether people want to engage with it or not is up to them. I'm well aware of where hurling is, and why it's not as widely played as football.

equivariant · 30-07-2018 12:15PM

For whatever reason, the changes that have been made to the hurling championship structure in recent years have generally been good ones, whereas football has had a hit-and-miss record in that regard.

Also, I think that football has suffered a lot from an obsession with rugby. You see it in the language used by commentators - "recycling possession, overlaps, running off the shoulder" and the obsession with strength and tackling among players and managers.

I think that reducing to 13-a-side would be a good first step to save the game. It would create more space for attackers, give more of an advantage to lighter players over big ones. Also it would favour counties with smaller populations a little bit as they would stand a better chance in a 13 v 13 contest than a 15 v 15.

As it stands, players have got so big and powerful that it is almost impossible for attackers to create any space within the scoring zone. So the game has become more about being able to retain possession until the opposition fouls you to give away a kickable free. For most people that is not very entertaining to watch.

Possession based tactics cannot work so well in hurling because the scoring zone is so much larger, so the penalty for getting caught in possession is much greater. And of course it means teams have to defend against shooters over a much larger area. In football most players cannot reliably score a point from 30m away from goal so there is little incentive to pressure the opposition in their own half.

I should say that I grew up playing football (never touched a hurley as a kid) and that is very much my first sporting love. But anyone who thinks that it can compete with hurling for entertainment value (at intercounty level) these days is delusional. I think that football can be saved but it needs some intervention to eliminate the obsession with strength and power.

FrancieBrady · 30-07-2018 12:25PM

equivariant wrote: »

For whatever reason, the changes that have been made to the hurling championship structure in recent years have generally been good ones, whereas football has had a hit-and-miss record in that regard.

Also, I think that football has suffered a lot from an obsession with rugby. You see it in the language used by commentators - "recycling possession, overlaps, running off the shoulder" and the obsession with strength and tackling among players and managers.

I think that reducing to 13-a-side would be a good first step to save the game. It would create more space for attackers, give more of an advantage to lighter players over big ones. Also it would favour counties with smaller populations a little bit as they would stand a better chance in a 13 v 13 contest than a 15 v 15.

As it stands, players have got so big and powerful that it is almost impossible for attackers to create any space within the scoring zone. So the game has become more about being able to retain possession until the opposition fouls you to give away a kickable free. For most people that is not very entertaining to watch.

Possession based tactics cannot work so well in hurling because the scoring zone is so much larger, so the penalty for getting caught in possession is much greater. And of course it means teams have to defend against shooters over a much larger area.

I should say that I grew up playing football (never touched a hurley as a kid) and that is very much my first sporting love. But anyone who thinks that it can compete with hurling for entertainment value (at intercounty level) these days is delusional. I think that football can be saved but it needs some intervention to eliminate the obsession with strength and power.

I cannot argue that football needs to have a good look at itself and at various elephants in the room.

But both codes should be doing that on an ongoing basis.

Proclaiming that hurling is a better game yada yada after a memorable weekend is not really doing anything other than engaging in bravado.

Davys Fits · 30-07-2018 12:46PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody says it 'takes from the game'.

I think the claim is that hurling is a better game, and it is.
But drill down into that and it is only better at the top skill level and there are very few at that level on a country wide basis.

That is it's problem.

Ok and what are these counties doing to improve their skill levels. Blaming the gaa is not a soloution. Do they even want to play hurling? Usually the answer I get in these debaltes is that they would prefer to play football. So if thats the case then whats the problem?

FrancieBrady · 30-07-2018 12:57PM

Davys Fits wrote: »

Ok and what are these counties doing to improve their skill levels. Blaming the gaa is not a soloution. Do they even want to play hurling? Usually the answer I get in these debaltes is that they would prefer to play football. So if thats the case then whats the problem?

The constant wittering about it being a better game and such, is the problem.

If that were true we would all be playing it. There are reasons why we aren't, is my point. As outlined above. Nobody's fault as you say, just the way it is and will probably remain.

mountgomery burns · 30-07-2018 01:35PM

Roger_007 wrote: »

Where I come from there was no hurling at all, so I played football. When I got too old and decrepit to play football I lost interest in the game but I enjoy watching hurling matches on TV.
I often ask myself why, if its is a better game, hurling has not become the dominant GAA game. Why is it still only played at a high level in a handful of counties despite strenuous efforts by the GAA to promote hurling in the non-traditional areas.
I think part of the answer lies in the attitudes of hurling people themselves. They regard their game as surperior and an essential part of being Irish. They regard Gaelic football as some kind of bastardised mixture of rugby and soccer and therefore not really 'Irish' at all. Sport should not be politicised in this way.
Those who claim that hurling is the best field game in the world should ask themselves the question: 'Why hasn't hurling spread to the rest of Ireland, never mind the rest of the world?'. The answer may lie in their own political attitudes and how they connect the sport you play with your politics.

This is absolute bollocks anyway. What dictates the interest of young people in a game:

1) Role models and influences
2) chances at being successful

Hurling is a harder game to play, that's a fact that might not be recognized on here but it is. Its exceptionally difficult to win a football all ireland, don't get me wrong. But there is a great leveller further down.

There's more people take hurling seriously in Meath then play football in Carlow, and yet Carlow beat Kildare in the championship. Who are one of the 8 best teams in the Country.

Would Meath beat Waterford in the hurling? 10/10, they would be hammered. And that discourages young people from either taking up the sport or if they are interested continuing with it.

How excited are young people in Roscommon at the moment about football this year after their performances in the super 8s say compared with winning connaught last year? That in a nutshell is why football is more popular, its easier to be competitive without ultimately being good enough to challenge the very best.

And if that to anyone here is "snobbery" then you are deluded.

flasher0030 · 30-07-2018 01:53PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I cannot argue that football needs to have a good look at itself and at various elephants in the room.

But both codes should be doing that on an ongoing basis.

Proclaiming that hurling is a better game yada yada after a memorable weekend is not really doing anything other than engaging in bravado.

If by better, we mean more entertaining, then I think it’s more relevant than saying it’s just engaging on bravado. I’ve never played a hurling match. Have played about 400 football games at adult level. So I’m definitely not biased towards hurling. Out of tradition and analysing matches in my own head, I love watching football. But when it comes to entertainment value, there is no doubt to me that hurling has provided more fulfilling entertainment. Every second hurling game seems to leave with that feeling of satisfaction of – “that was some 70 minutes of entertainment”. But, except for maybe 3 or 4 games this year, football has been the opposite. More of a feeling of “well, that’s 70 minutes I won’t get back again”.

Hurling Rankings · 30-07-2018 02:23PM

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OldMrBrennan83 · 30-07-2018 02:26PM

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FrancieBrady · 30-07-2018 02:40PM

I genuinely have great difficulty remembering a GAA football game I have watched and the thought 'this is so boring all football is dooned' occurring to me. Which is the impression you would get if you listened to Spillage and Co.

Maybe get rid of them is the answer.

equivariant · 30-07-2018 03:49PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I cannot argue that football needs to have a good look at itself and at various elephants in the room.

But both codes should be doing that on an ongoing basis.

Proclaiming that hurling is a better game yada yada after a memorable weekend is not really doing anything other than engaging in bravado.

I didn't say that one was better or worse. I just said that there is no doubt that hurling is more entertaining right now than football.

Also, I dispute the idea that football is more tactically sophisticated than hurling. I think that people often confuse slow and stodgy for tactically sophisticated. As far as I can, football right now has no interesting tactics. Any fool can pack the defence and look to play on the counter - its not clever or innovative - its just the obvious thing to do if you want to keep the game tight because you don't have confidence in your players to win individual battles. And pretending that one particular variation on that theme is somehow fundamentally new is nonsense. The problem with football now is that the rules don't give enough advantage to teams that want to play a more open attacking style.

On the other hand I think that hurling has quite a lot of interesting tactical stuff going on. Anyone who thinks that the 4 semi finalists were just lashing it up and down the field and hoping for the best wasn't watching properly. Look at the way Clare adjusted their tactical set up after the first quarter - it was a subtle enough change but it completely changed the flow of the game.

D9Male · 30-07-2018 04:12PM

Football:

X

X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X

Hurling:

X X X X X X X
X X

X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X

bobbyss · 30-07-2018 04:31PM

gerryirl wrote: »

Yes I've grasped there different games.lol.. what can football do to make it watchable again.

Fewer players perhaps? 30 on a pitch is simply too much.

You rarely see great goals in Gaelic football. Wouldn't it be nice to see the quality of goals increase and how could that be done?

What have been the top 10 greatest goals of this year so far? I have no idea as most goals are just toe pokes or banging the ball in from all of two feet.

Hurling V Football

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