Peak Trans

o1s1n · 27-07-2018 03:27PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

If a trans woman has not yet transitioned or is still living and dressing as a man and has not told me she is a trans woman then I cannot tell that she is a woman. But she is a woman.

To whom?

If she hasn't told you she's a woman and appears to be and dresses like a man then she is a man, to you. (and everyone else she hasn't told)

LLMMLL · 27-07-2018 03:27PM

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

I actually had to read that a few times!

That would be a man. You failed.

By your subjective criteria maybe.

But she’s a woman.

KrustyUCC · 27-07-2018 03:29PM

If a man has not yet transitioned or is still living and dressing as a man and has not told me he is wanting to be a trans woman then I cannot tell that he wants to be a trans woman. But he is a man

Malayalam · 27-07-2018 03:30PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Googled her - giver her profession I'm assuming all the surgery has been completed ?

Absolutely female then. And a bit of a fox!

You did not google properly.

LLMMLL · 27-07-2018 03:30PM

o1s1n wrote: »

To whom?

If she hasn't told you she's a woman and appears to be and dresses like a man then she is a man, to you. (and everyone else she hasn't told)

So if a cis woman, has a vagina, breasts, and all the hormones typically associated with women, straps down her breasts, dresses as a man, gets a male haircut, just for the hell of it, and I assume and most other people assume she’s a man, then she’s a man?

HappyAsLarE · 27-07-2018 03:31PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

By your subjective criteria maybe.

But she’s a woman.

If you took a group of 50 scientists and 50 doctors. How many out of the 100 would say woman?

LLMMLL · 27-07-2018 03:31PM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

If a man has not yet transitioned or is still living and dressing as a man and has not told me he is wanting to be a trans woman then I cannot tell that he wants to be a trans woman. But he is a man

No she’s a woman. She’s not “wanting to be a trans woman”.

o1s1n · 27-07-2018 03:32PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

So if a cis woman, has a vagina, breasts, and all the hormones typically associated with women, straps down her breasts, dresses as a man, gets a male haircut, just for the hell of it, and I assume and most other people assume she’s a man, then she’s a man?

No, because it's fairly obvious to spot when a woman is dressed as a man and not actually a man.

You're being disingenuous for the sake of argument by suggesting otherwise.

LLMMLL · 27-07-2018 03:32PM

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

If you took a group of 50 scientists and 50 doctors. How many out of the 100 would say woman?

Link?

HappyAsLarE · 27-07-2018 03:34PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Link?

Link?

They would win the bet and you would lose.

LLMMLL · 27-07-2018 03:34PM

o1s1n wrote: »

No, because it's fairly obvious to spot when a woman is dressed as a man and not actually a man.

You're being disingenuous for the sake of argument by suggesting otherwise.

I’m not actually.

There’s a woman in my gym I always assumed was Male until I saw an ad she put up on a noticeboard.

BattleCorp · 27-07-2018 03:35PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Googled her - giver her profession I'm assuming all the surgery has been completed ?

Absolutely female then. And a bit of a fox!

Sorry I googled. Yes, there's tackle.

Wouldn't qualify as female according to my rules.

LLMMLL · 27-07-2018 03:35PM

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Link?

They would win the bet and you would lose.

Huh? I’m asking you to provide a link where 100 doctors and scientists don’t “say woman”. Still waiting.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 27-07-2018 03:35PM

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

If you took a group of 50 scientists and 50 doctors. How many out of the 100 would say woman?

Give the 'wrong' answer and you could be reported to the medical council and shamed on social media.

It's not worth risking 7 yrs of study. Lol

KrustyUCC · 27-07-2018 03:36PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

No she’s a woman. She’s not “wanting to be a trans woman”.

How exactly is someone a woman who hasn't transitioned and is or is still living and dressing as a man and has not told me he was wanting to transition at all?

HappyAsLarE · 27-07-2018 03:36PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’m not actually.

There’s a woman in my gym I always assumed was Male until I saw an ad she put up on a noticeboard.

That is a woman that looks like a man. Her or your identification doesn’t change it. That’s the whole point people are making. It is unproductive to rewrite the definitions of what a man is and what a woman is. We all know the truth is set from birth.

SterlingArcher · 27-07-2018 03:36PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’m not actually.

There’s a woman in my gym I always assumed was Male until I saw an ad she put up on a noticeboard.

So I hope you were a good person and gave one last final courtesy ****.

HappyAsLarE · 27-07-2018 03:37PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Huh? I’m asking you to provide a link where 100 doctors and scientists don’t “say woman”. Still waiting.

Oh good luck. You know what I mean.

o1s1n · 27-07-2018 03:37PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’m not actually.

There’s a woman in my gym I always assumed was Male until I saw an ad she put up on a noticeboard.

So the fact that you saw one masculine looking woman in the gym meant that you cannot tell when women dress up as men?

Halloween must be very confusing for you

LLMMLL · 27-07-2018 03:38PM

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

That is a woman that looks like a man. Her or your identification doesn’t change it. That’s the whole point people are making. It is unproductive to rewrite the definitions of what a man is and what a woman is. We all know the truth is set from birth.

Actually the poster I responded to seemed to be saying that it was me and others perceiving someone as a man bat made them a man.

Identification doesn’t change it. Identification is identifying what they actually are.

LLMMLL · 27-07-2018 03:39PM

o1s1n wrote: »

So the fact that you saw one masculine looking woman in the gym meant that you cannot tell when women dress up as men?

Halloween must be very confusing for you

Well by your criteria above, my assumption she was Male makes her Male. I’m just pointing out how silly that is.

LLMMLL · 27-07-2018 03:41PM

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Oh good luck. You know what I mean.

I do. It’s the classic “if I asked 100 blah blah blah”, “did you ask 100.....”, “well ..... no.... but rabble rabble”.

I had an argument about physics with a friend once. We couldn’t agree:

Friend: if Stephen hawking said it would you agree with me then?

Me: probably. Did Stephen hawking say it?

Friend: ummmmmmm.......

Me: facepalm.

o1s1n · 27-07-2018 03:44PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well by your criteria above, my assumption she was Male makes her Male. I’m just pointing out how silly that is.

Gender assumptions based on physical appearance can be wrong.

However it is in a very small proportion of daily interactions. Such a small proportion that it would almost be negligible. (I'd imagine being on a gym scene would boost the possibility of it happening)

If a woman dresses as a man to pretend to be male as you said, then I am almost certain most people could spot it a mile away.

I've seen loads of instances, even where women genuinely have very androgynous features - you can still tell it's a female.

SterlingArcher · 27-07-2018 03:45PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’m not actually.

There’s a woman in my gym I always assumed was Male until I saw an ad she put up on a noticeboard.

Goes to my gym. Oooh your gym...check the privilege on this one.

Hey everybody I'm a scientist who goes the gym....

Get outta here nerd, quit trying to flex.

The Bishop Basher · 27-07-2018 03:45PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

A significant number of people who have penises but say they are not Male is enough to make me question that the subjective criteria we use to describe Male/female is lacking.

What’s a significant number of people and is that number scientifically relevant as a percentage of the overall population ?

_Kaiser_ · 27-07-2018 03:48PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Googled her - giver her profession I'm assuming all the surgery has been completed ?

Absolutely female then. And a bit of a fox!

I'd disagree on that one myself.

How someone lives their life (male/female/straight/gay/bi/whatever) is overwhelmingly none of my concern and it's legitimately great that they can do that, but when it comes to a relationship or sex you cannot deny the real differences, biology and history that go beyond surgeries and hormone treatments.

As a straight man (no cis nonsense either) I'm only interested in original, biological women and discovering anything else would not only be a instant deal breaker, but a betrayal of trust.

Again I have no issue with how a grown adult, who is fully aware of the implications, chooses to live their life so long as it does not unduly impact on anyone else.. but all the cosmetic and drug/hormone treatments in the world will not make them 100% indistinguishable from a biological man/woman and I am not obliged to accept them as such - especially in the context of a relationship (although from the perspective of simple everyday interaction I would call them whatever name, refer to as he/she as they desired out of simple courtesy and common human decency).

Does that make me "-phobic"? Maybe... do/should I care? No! - and THAT is my right too.

LLMMLL · 27-07-2018 03:48PM

o1s1n wrote: »

Gender assumptions based on physical appearance can be wrong.

However it is in a very small proportion of daily interactions. Such a small proportion that it would almost be negligible. (I'd imagine being on a gym scene would boost the possibility of it happening)

If a woman dresses as a man to pretend to be male as you said, then I am almost certain most people could spot it a mile away.

I've seen loads of instances, even where women genuinely have very androgynous features - you can still tell it's a female.

Yet I know scores of butcher women who love to tell stories about being addressed as “sir”.

But you’re right in one sense. It is rare. And I’ve no problem with someone assuming someone is Male or female. I did it myself with the woman at the gym.

But that doesn’t make your assumption correct or part of some criteria. If I assume someone’s a man and they tell me they’re a masculine looking woman (cis woman) then I’m like “ok they’re a woman”. Equally if they tell me they’re a transgender woman I’m like “ok they’re a woman”.

I’m not like “oh well since I can tell correctly in most cases therefore you’re a man no matter what you say”.

HappyAsLarE · 27-07-2018 03:50PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I do. It’s the classic “if I asked 100 blah blah blah”, “did you ask 100.....”, “well ..... no.... but rabble rabble”.

I had an argument about physics with a friend once. We couldn’t agree:

Friend: if Stephen hawking said it would you agree with me then?

Me: probably. Did Stephen hawking say it?

Friend: ummmmmmm.......

Me: facepalm.

I didn’t say 100 scientists said anything. I asked you, as a betting man/woman, how many would say woman.

If you don’t say “probably 100” you are lying.

If you admit to “probably 100” then you’re next question to answer is - are they all wrong?

LLMMLL · 27-07-2018 03:51PM

Rennaws wrote: »

What’s a significant number of people and is that number scientifically relevant as a percentage of the overall population ?

There’s no clear boundary on what number is significant.

I’ve no idea what you mean by scientifically relevant.

ceadaoin. · 27-07-2018 03:51PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

It has elements of subjectivity and objectivity.

But that’s not the important distinction of criteria for a vet.

For a vet what matters is that the criteria he uses are ADEQUATE.

Which they would be in this case.

What about when it's actually important to know the sex of a person? Such as for medical treatment. It's well known that say symptoms of a heart attack present differently in males and females, resulting in females often being misdiagnosed. Certain medications might work differently or not work at all. Should a doctor perform prostate checks on a female who identifies as a man so that their identity is validated? Smear tests on a trans woman? Are they transphobic if they refuse?

Humans are animals, it's pretty easy to identify
sex. Biological facts are unchangeable and do matter in many circumstances, no amount of feelings are going to change that.

Peak Trans

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