Peak Trans

HappyAsLarE

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

What about how I know my budgie is a boy ? He has a different coloured area above his beak. Is that wrong now ??

In parakeets its actually blue for a male and pink for a female!!! Bloody transphobic avians!!!!!

Too subjective, man.

LLMMLL

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

So you think it is subjective to pick criteria that clearly provide evidence of sex?

If a vet does a reach around to check the sex of an animal, is that subjective or objective?

It has elements of subjectivity and objectivity.

But that’s not the important distinction of criteria for a vet.

For a vet what matters is that the criteria he uses are ADEQUATE.

Which they would be in this case.

ELM327

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Too subjective, man.

Did you just assume Zer gender?

PlaneSpeeking

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Too subjective, man.

Seamus says "cheep how very dare you! Cheep!"

PlaneSpeeking

ELM327 wrote: »

Did you just assume Zer gender?

Well I have no penis but for some that's not an objective criteria I'm a woman - so, well who knows!!!

LLMMLL

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

What about how I know my budgie is a boy ? He has a different coloured area above his beak. Is that wrong now ??

In parakeets its actually blue for a male and pink for a female!!! Bloody transphobic avians!!!!!

I just had to do one search for identifying whether a budgie is Male or female to find an article saying how easy it is to get it wrong. Pale blue vs royal blue. Wow what an objective criteria.

Are you suggesting that whether or not you were born with a penis or a vagina is not adequate criteria to differentiate between a man and a woman?

HappyAsLarE

LLMMLL wrote: »

It has elements of subjectivity and objectivity.

But that’s not the important distinction of criteria for a vet.

For a vet what matters is that the criteria he uses are ADEQUATE.

Which they would be in this case.

My original point - I could define many objective criteria. Did you need me to say they would be adequate?

Scientist me hole.

PlaneSpeeking

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you suggesting that whether or not you were born with a penis or a vagina is not adequate criteria to differentiate between a man or a woman?

As we are told to use the phrase "her penis", I suspect that to be the case exactly.

God I wish I had gone to school now rather that the 80s. All that studying for Biology O Level - I could have just made nonsense up!!!

"Name the male part of the flower labelled here:"

"Oh so just because it's a stamen you assume it's a male organ ? 2 marks please".

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you suggesting that whether or not you were born with a penis or a vagina is not adequate criteria to differentiate between a man and a woman?

In most cases it is. In some cases it’s not.

In the cases where it’s not (trans people) then the criteria should not be forced upon them, because it’s not adequate in this case.

LLMMLL

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

My original point - I could define many objective criteria. Did you need me to say they would be adequate?

Scientist me hole.

But your criteria would not be objective. They would be your opinion on what data (which could be subjective or objective) should be taken to identify a male or female.

That’s not a matter of adequacy. The vet example is.

HappyAsLarE

LLMMLL wrote: »

But your criteria would not be objective. They would be your opinion on what data (which could be subjective or objective) should be taken to identify a male or female.

That’s not a matter of adequacy. The vet example is.

So essentially you would be disputing that the known differences between men and women are not defining features of men and women.

That a penis is neither male nor female.

The reality is that you’re just being awkward and tolerant for the sake of it.

TheValeyard

Do ladies nights still exist in pubs?
Potential minefield. Whose to say that another person identifies as a woman for the discounts or free entry?

PlaneSpeeking

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

So essentially you would be disputing that the known differences between men and women are not defining features of men and women.

That a penis is neither male nor female.

The reality is that you’re just being awkward and tolerant for the sake of it.

A penis may not be male or female but it is only ever attached to one of these!

You can be born without one and have one surgically added - still going on a man.

Though a colleague is a plastic surgeon and says it's easier to turn a glove inside out than build a hill, so I suspect a man becoming a woman is easier than the other way around.

HappyAsLarE

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Do ladies nights still exist in pubs?
Potential minefield. Whose to say that another person identifies as a woman for the discounts or free entry?

Well apparently we have no way of testing for the truth anymore.

PlaneSpeeking

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Do ladies nights still exist in pubs?
Potential minefield. Whose to say that another person identifies as a woman for the discounts or free entry?

Yes. And I beg for your safety do not go to one!

I'm told they are like watching a gazelle eaten by 20 lions - but with perfume and lambrini.

HappyAsLarE

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

A penis may not be male or female but it is only ever attached to one of these!

You can be born without one and have one surgically added - still going on a man.

Though a colleague is a plastic surgeon and says it's easier to turn a glove inside out than build a hill, so I suspect a man becoming a woman is easier than the other way around.

You can test if it was added or from birth.

SterlingArcher

LLMMLL wrote: »

In most cases it is. In some cases it’s not.

In the cases where it’s not (trans people) then the criteria should not be forced upon them, because it’s not adequate in this case.

A hypothetical.

You were out on a night out. Your sister or female friend gets into an argument with another person. The other person in the argument is a trans woman. There is no mediation working.

Your female friend/sister has not noticed this and gets physical(for arguments sake)with the trans woman.

Do you carry on your suspension of biological reality in this case do as not to offend and knowingly let your friend get into a physical altercation with this other woman.

Or do you say screw that, my friends well being takes priority and tell your friend look, that is a trans woman who realistically still has the physical strength of a man and could possibly do serious damage.

This has been witnessed in sport. Men transition to women. And compete with women fighters. It is not pretty.

PlaneSpeeking

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

You can test if it was added or from birth.

Oh that is true, yes.

But don't ask me - I was told (they always TELL you!!) that I shouldn't say I am a woman. I'm either a "ciswoman" or "assigned female at birth".

Boll**ks to that.

Rory28

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

A penis may not be male or female but it is only ever attached to one of these!

You can be born without one and have one surgically added - still going on a man.

Though a colleague is a plastic surgeon and says it's easier to turn a glove inside out than build a hill, so I suspect a man becoming a woman is easier than the other way around.

Now a bit tongue in cheek but would you consider Bailey Jay to be a man? Penis and all?

Do not google if you are in work

Deusexmachina

To 'identify as' = a corruption of language - meaningless twaddle.

LLMMLL

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

So essentially you would be disputing that the known differences between men and women are not defining features of men and women.

That a penis is neither male nor female.

The reality is that you’re just being awkward and tolerant for the sake of it.

No this is just the typical over application of human made laws to natural phenomena.

So for example, Newton’s laws are obeyed by the vast majority of bodies we encounter in everyday life. Then it was discovered they don’t apply to certain phenomena. How crazy would it be to imply that objects moving close to the speed of light were behaving incorrectly because they didn’t follow the human made law that described them.

In linguistics there was a shift in the 1950s from viewing people who didn’t follow the accepted “rules” of grammar as speaking incorrectly (and consequently being stupid and uneducated) to viewing the rules as inadequate descriptions of the way people speak. Again, the subjective criteria were found to be wrong and our thinking has moved on since then.

A significant number of people who have penises but say they are not Male is enough to make me question that the subjective criteria we use to describe Male/female is lacking.

There’s no awkward attempt to be open minded here.

LLMMLL

SterlingArcher wrote: »

A hypothetical.

You were out on a night out. Your sister or female friend gets into an argument with another person. The other person in the argument is a trans woman. There is no mediation working.

Your female friend/sister has not noticed this and gets physical(for arguments sake)with the trans woman.

Do you carry on your suspension of biological reality in this case do as not to offend and knowingly let your friend get into a physical altercation with this other woman.

Or do you say screw that, my friends well being takes priority and tell your friend look, that is a trans woman who realistically still has the physical strength of a man and could possibly do serious damage.

This has been witnessed in sport. Men transition to women. And compete with women fighters. It is not pretty.

In my imagination (my friends don’t get into scraps) is probably pull my sister away.

Which is what I see most people doing with their friends when they get scrappy. They pull their friend away.

PlaneSpeeking

Rory28 wrote: »

Now a bit tongue in cheek but would you consider Bailey Jay to be a man? Penis and all?

Do not google if you are in work

Googled her - giver her profession I'm assuming all the surgery has been completed ?

Absolutely female then. And a bit of a fox!

HappyAsLarE

LLMMLL wrote: »

No this is just the typical over application of human made laws to natural phenomena.

So for example, Newton’s laws are obeyed by the vast majority of bodies we encounter in everyday life. Then it was discovered they don’t apply to certain phenomena. How crazy would it be to imply that objects moving close to the speed of light were behaving incorrectly because they didn’t follow the human made law that described them.

In linguistics there was a shift in the 1950s from viewing people who didn’t follow the accepted “rules” of grammar as speaking incorrectly (and consequently being stupid and uneducated) to viewing the rules as inadequate descriptions of the way people speak. Again, the subjective criteria were found to be wrong and our thinking has moved on since then.

A significant number of people who have penises but say they are not Male is enough to make me question that the subjective criteria we use to describe Male/female is lacking.

There’s no awkward attempt to be open minded here.

Dear lord. Newton’s laws were the best attempt of explaining what we (he) knew based on his repeatable experiments. In hindsight we know the limits of his experiments.

Everything we talk about comes with a certain “as far as we now know”.

I know full well that you can tell the difference between a man and a woman with hgh certainty. Don’t kid us.

Rory28

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Googled her - giver her profession I'm assuming all the surgery has been completed ?

Absolutely female then. And a bit of a fox!

I'd agree but as far as I know she is keeping the tackle.

SterlingArcher

Rory28 wrote: »

Now a bit tongue in cheek but would you consider Bailey Jay to be a man? Penis and all?

Do not google if you are in work

I'd prefer Theryn Meyer. an interesting person.

LLMMLL

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Dear lord. Newton’s laws were the best attempt of explaining what we (he) knew based on his repeatable experiments. In hindsight we know the limits of his experiments.

Everything we talk about comes with a certain “as far as we now know”.

I know full well that you can tell the difference between a man and a woman with hgh certainty. Don’t kid us.

If a trans woman has not yet transitioned or is still living and dressing as a man and has not told me she is a trans woman then I cannot tell that she is a woman. But she is a woman.

KrustyUCC

Rory28 wrote: »

I'd agree but as far as I know she is keeping the tackle.

So basically like a Ladyboy in Thailand

HappyAsLarE

LLMMLL wrote: »

If a trans woman has not yet transitioned or is still living and dressing as a man and has not told me she is a trans woman then I cannot tell that she is a woman. But she is a woman.

I actually had to read that a few times!

That would be a man. You failed.