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Peak Trans

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Comments

  • #782
    MadYaker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,337 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    Braelyn Stocky Stew wrote: »
    Are you saying every hair salon should cut men and women's hair, and every barber should cut men and women's hair too?

    No I’m not saying that. If you want a women’s haircut go to a hair salon. If you want a men’s haircut go to a barbers. Your gender should be irrelevant. This person wanted a mans haircut and went to a barbers, they were refused service because they were female. How can people not see that as straight up discrimination? Regardless of what agreement may or may not have existed with another business, you can’t refuse to serve someone because of their gender.

    Seems pretty straightforward to me and I’d imagine that’s the way the judge looked at it.


  • #783
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Can you direct me to the male sanitary towel department please?

    Ooh don't go there!!!!

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/13/pc-criticised-warning-feminine-care-supermarket-signs-sexist/


  • #784
    SnazzyPig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 270 ✭✭SnazzyPig


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    I don't see how it's OK to turn down work on the basis of gender. Sure, if a woman comes into the barber looking for layers and a full head of highlights, you don't do that so tough ****. But if it's a short back and sides, what's the ****ing problem?
    I had the side of my head shaved for years, and I encountered this a few times. I don't want to pay double or triple in the hairdressers because I have the temerity to have a vagina.

    The article says it was a condition of the lease not to compete with the nearby ladies salon by cutting women's hair.


  • #785
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Rory28 wrote: »
    I dont think thats the case here at all. We dont have to be up to date on trans issues just treat people courteously. When the customer said they were a trans man that should have been it. The fine is because it was ruled he discriminated. He will now take a case against whoever made the lease that said he couldn't serve women. a ridiculous lease in fairness.

    I disagree with that. Why should someone have to take a strangers word on anything? According to his lease (which admittedly was stupid) he couldn't cut women's hair. Just because they said they were a man despite evidence to the contrary, you think they should just be believed? If a young person went into a bar and just told the barman they were 18 despite looking and sounding younger, should the barman just believe them?

    If you have the issue with the fact it was discrimination, would you fully support me if I went to curves gym and sued them because they wouldn't allow me to join?


  • #786
    Rory28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rory28


    SnazzyPig wrote: »
    The article says it was a condition of the lease not to compete with the nearby ladies salon by cutting women's hair.

    Is such a lease even legal tho?


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  • #787
    Rory28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rory28


    disagree with that. Why should someone have to take a strangers word on anything? According to his lease (which admittedly was stupid) he couldn't cut women's hair. Just because they said they were a man despite evidence to the contrary, you think they should just be believed? If a young person went into a bar and just told the barman they were 18 despite looking and sounding younger, should the barman just believe them?

    If you have the issue with the fact it was discrimination, would you fully support me if I went to curves gym and sued them because they wouldn't allow me to join?

    I'm still questioning the legalities of the lease and I already answered the curves question.


  • #788
    MadYaker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,337 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    SnazzyPig wrote: »
    The article says it was a condition of the lease not to compete with the nearby ladies salon by cutting women's hair.

    I find this very hard to believe as such an agreement would almost certainly be illegal. It sounds like a lame excuse to me.


  • #789
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Rory28 wrote: »
    Is such a lease even legal tho?

    Possibly/probably not but I know if my livelihood depended on it, I'd side with the landlord and err on the side of caution.


  • #790
    elbyrneo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 551 ✭✭✭elbyrneo


    If someone is asked to leave either a male or female dressing room in a public swimming pool, on the basis of mistaken gender, are they entitled to sue for discrimination similar to the barber story?

    At least in the case of the barber, there are (perhaps dubiously) mitigating circumstances- the barber understood there was a lease agreement based on men only services to prevent competition with a nearby ladies salon, and his skillset was better suited to mens hair.

    What would happen say for a biological born man transitioning to a woman and scaring the bejaysus out of ladies in a dressing room (partic if in the early stages of transition) and then screaming "but I'm a woman" when being escorted out by security. Easy money......


  • #791
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MadYaker wrote: »
    I find this very hard to believe as such an agreement would almost certainly be illegal. It sounds like a lame excuse to me.

    It is a mad world we live in where you think an agreement between two competing hairdressers is a lame excuse and unbelievable but can wholesale believe that someone born with a vagina can be a man.

    Are we at the stage now where we deny there are natural differences between sexes and establishments should be able to cater specifically for one or the other otherwise.....DISCRIMINATION?

    Jesus Christ.


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  • #792
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    elbyrneo wrote: »
    If someone is asked to leave either a male or female dressing room in a public swimming pool, on the basis of mistaken gender, are they entitled to sue for discrimination similar to the barber story?

    At least in the case of the barber, there are (perhaps dubiously) mitigating circumstances- the barber understood there was a lease agreement based on men only services to prevent competition with a nearby ladies salon, and his skillset was better suited to mens hair.

    What would happen say for a biological born man transitioning to a woman and scaring the bejaysus out of ladies in a dressing room (partic if in the early stages of transition) and then screaming "but I'm a woman" when being escorted out by security. Easy money......

    Four female prisoners were sexually assaulted recently when a fully functioning male rapist "identified" as a woman and was moved there:

    https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/07/18/whats-current-trans-identified-male-inmate-sexually-assaults-four-inmates-uk-womens-prison/


  • #793
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Rory28 wrote: »
    I'm still questioning the legalities of the lease and I already answered the curves question.

    Apologies, I missed it.

    So you would agree that I should be able to sue Curves? That's mental.


  • #794
    MadYaker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,337 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    It is a mad world we live in where you think an agreement between two competing hairdressers is a lame excuse and unbelievable but can wholesale believe that someone born with a vagina can be a man.

    Are we at the stage now where we deny there are natural differences between sexes and establishments should be able to cater specifically for one or the other otherwise.....DISCRIMINATION?

    Jesus Christ.

    Oh my god it’s so tiresome reading posts like this. Where exactly did I say that I believe someone born with a vagina can be a man? Read my other post here:

    If you want a women’s haircut go to a hair salon. If you want a men’s haircut go to a barbers. Your gender should be irrelevant. This person wanted a mans haircut and went to a barbers, they were refused service because they were female. How can people not see that as straight up discrimination? Regardless of what agreement may or may not have existed with another business, you can’t refuse to serve someone because of their gender.


  • #795
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Deleted User wrote:
    Well then they should have gone to an alternative barber who didn't have an agreement with a hairdressers that he wouldn't cut female client's hair.

    I don't want to pay for extra in car insurance or suffer harsher prison sentences or be a lesser parent in the eyes of the court because I have the temerity to have a penis


    Not sure why you want me to respect price fixing. Nor do I know why you are getting in my face, I don't think you should have to put up with those things either.


  • #796
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    His mother tries to convince him he was trans. Bought him female clothes, called him by a feminine version of the name (if memory serves he was called Alex and she called him Alice). They even took him to something called The Mermaid Group ? Not familiar there I'm afraid.

    That poor lad just wanted to be who he was but well meaning but wholly misguided parents messed up big time.

    They could have had a perfectly, healthy, normal, gay son. But that poor lad - still not an adult - will be recovering from this for some time.

    Sadly there are still many parts of society where it's more palatable for some parents to have a trans (straight) child than a gay one. Or where the parents jump on gendered inclinations and overly push them on the child as a form of attention seeking for the parents.

    Children are incredibly malleable. Even the most abusive parent has a child that loves them and tries to follow the 'rules' to please that parent - whatever those rules may be. And if a child feels they might be different but has a homophobic parent, it might be less terrifying to go to mum and dad with the feeling that they are simply the wrong gender rather than the 'wrong' sexuality.


  • #797
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    Not sure why you want me to respect price fixing. Nor do I know why you are getting in my face, I don't think you should have to put up with those things either.

    I'm not getting in your face. I am not asking you to put up with their price fixing either. I just think that if you dislike their methods or price fixing, go somewhere else.


  • #798
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MadYaker wrote: »
    Oh my god it’s so tiresome reading posts like this. Where exactly did I say that I believe someone born with a vagina can be a man? Read my other post here:

    If you want a women’s haircut go to a hair salon. If you want a men’s haircut go to a barbers. Your gender should be irrelevant. This person wanted a mans haircut and went to a barbers, they were refused service because they were female. How can people not see that as straight up discrimination? Regardless of what agreement may or may not have existed with another business, you can’t refuse to serve someone because of their gender.

    My apologies. I did put words in your mouth and that was unfair. I take that back.

    And while I agree with your view and think it makes the most sense, I still think that people should be allowed cater for a specific gender (eg curves gym, barbers etc). I don't think the courts should be brought into it.


  • #799
    MadYaker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,337 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    The transgender thing isn’t really relevant to what happened here at all but a lot of people don’t seem to able to view it that way.


  • #800
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    MadYaker wrote: »
    The transgender thing isn’t really relevant to what happened here at all but a lot of people don’t seem to able to view it that way.

    Please explain how it's not a transgender issue ?


  • #801
    MadYaker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,337 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Please explain how it's not a transgender issue ?

    If you want a women’s haircut go to a hair salon. If you want a men’s haircut go to a barbers. Your gender should be irrelevant. This person wanted a mans haircut and went to a barbers, they were refused service because they were female. How can people not see that as straight up discrimination? Regardless of what agreement may or may not have existed with another business, you can’t refuse to serve someone because of their gender.


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  • #802
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MadYaker wrote: »
    The transgender thing isn’t really relevant to what happened here at all but a lot of people don’t seem to able to view it that way.

    That's a good point but it is easy to see how people would get confused considering the tone of the article goes at length to push the fact that the person was a he.


  • #803
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Deleted User wrote: »
    That's a good point but it is easy to see how people would get confused considering the tone of the article goes at length to push the fact that the person was a he.

    Yes but as a woman if I went to a barbers to ask for a short back and sides and they refused - I guarantee I wouldn't be looking at 5 grand now.


  • #804
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    MadYaker wrote: »
    If you want a women’s haircut go to a hair salon. If you want a men’s haircut go to a barbers. Your gender should be irrelevant. This person wanted a mans haircut and went to a barbers, they were refused service because they were female. How can people not see that as straight up discrimination? Regardless of what agreement may or may not have existed with another business, you can’t refuse to serve someone because of their gender.

    I can see your point particularly in this instance that does not involve overly intimate contact. But say I am a masseuse who has decided to only work with female clients, perhaps due to religion or prior sexual assault or simply because touching unknown men's bodies is outside my comfort zone. Can I refuse service to a person with male characteristics who identifies as a woman?


  • #805
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Yes but as a woman if I went to a barbers to ask for a short back and sides and they refused - I guarantee I wouldn't be looking at 5 grand now.

    If you do, let me know and I'll go with you as a witness and claim for 2.5k as I was traumatised by seeing such a violent and despicable act of mental cruelty


  • #806
    MadYaker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,337 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    Malayalam wrote: »
    I can see your point particularly in this instance that does not involve overly intimate contact. But say I am a masseuse who has decided to only work with female clients, perhaps due to religion or prior sexual assault or simply because touching unknown men's bodies is outside my comfort zone. Can I refuse service to a person with male characteristics who identifies as a woman?

    I think you’d need to consult a solicitor on that one. If touching certain people’s bodies is outside your comfort zone why would you work as a masseuse?

    I know that’s just a hypothetical example but I think in almost all of these situations if people could apply common sense a lot of problems would be avoided.


  • #807
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    MadYaker wrote: »
    I think you’d need to consult a solicitor on that one. If touching certain people’s bodies is outside your comfort zone why would you work as a masseuse?

    I think in almost all of these situations if people could apply common sense a lot of problems would be avoided.

    This would be so for lots of masseuses - for a variety of personal reasons they work only with their own sex. As a side line I teach movement classes, I have often taught unknown women privately but choose not to do so with men unless they are friends. This is due to prior assaults. It's not unreasonable to refuse due to gender


  • #808
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Malayalam wrote: »
    This would be so for lots of masseuses - for a variety of personal reasons they work only with their own sex. As a side line I teach movement classes, I have often taught unknown women privately but choose not to do so with men unless they are friends. This is due to prior assaults. It's not unreasonable to refuse due to gender

    Listen I read an article not long back where if lesbian women were to refuse to sleep with self identifying trans men (i.e. still packing) they were transphobic!

    Aren't they just gay women who don't want to partake of the old meat and two veg ???


  • #809
    MadYaker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,337 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    Malayalam wrote: »
    This would be so for lots of masseuses - for a variety of personal reasons they work only with their own sex. As a side line I teach movement classes, I have often taught unknown women privately but choose not to do so with men unless they are friends. This is due to prior assaults. It's not unreasonable to refuse due to gender

    Fair enough, I’m a man and have never been to a masseuse or anything like that so I don’t know how it usually works but I think in this day and age if business have practices like that they may want to reexamine the way they do things or it could cause them trouble. I’d imagine it’s a bit of a legal gray area with regards to transgender people.

    I did work in a pub when I was in college and as I understood it we had the right to refuse to serve people and we didn’t have to give a reason why. Obviously that didn’t mean we could stick a sign on the door saying no women and no foreigners but businesses do have some leeway in this regard. But I’m an engineer not a lawyer so I could be wrong.


  • #810
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Pot-kettle....

    How about:

    Female features
    Female voice
    Female figure

    Where do you want to stop ? They are "objective" (and yes I know the meaning of that and lots of other words!) criteria to assume someone is female.

    Familiar with your work, so have at the response L.

    Well the above would be terrible objective criteria.

    Female features: the least objective criteria possible. How will we define a wheel lads? Uhhhh it has wheel like features. Problem solved.

    Female voice: plenty of cis men with that.

    Female figure: Cis men with breast tissue.


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  • #811
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Well the above would be terrible objective criteria.

    Female features: the least objective criteria possible. How will we define a wheel lads? Uhhhh it has wheel like features. Problem solved.

    Female voice: plenty of cis men with that.

    Female figure: Cis men with breast tissue.

    So it's you who fail to understand the word "objectively". Thought as much.


This discussion has been closed.
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