Peak Trans

Rory28

Braelyn Stocky Stew wrote: »

Are you saying every hair salon should cut men and women's hair, and every barber should cut men and women's hair too?

they should offer their services to all. the barbers is the place to go to if you want a short back and sides. 12 - 15 euro job done. hairdressers are tad bit more expensive.

7aubzxk43m2sni

Rory28 wrote: »

they should offer their services to all. the barbers is the place to go to if you want a short back and sides. 12 - 15 euro job done. hairdressers are tad bit more expensive.

Ok. What about the example given earlier of curves - the women's only gym? Is that ok is should they also offer their services to all?

Annasopra

Neyite wrote: »

Well we don't have titles in this country.

In the UK where they do have titles, the proposed legislation will allow anyone to self identify as they like, when they like, be that part time or full time. However they drew the line at primogeniture. So the powers that be have decided that you can, to all intents and purposes identify as the opposite sex to the extent that you don't need to have had any surgeries or hormone treatment, and legally you must be treated accordingly, and that it's even illegal to ask or imply that they are anything other than the gender they state.

Except when it comes to inheriting your Da's title and all that goes with it.

Thats the law here for the last 3 years. The sky hasnt fallen in.

PlaneSpeeking

Braelyn Stocky Stew wrote: »

Ok. What about the example given earlier of curves - the women's only gym? Is that ok is should they also offer their services to all?

Female only yeah, but that's "good discrimination" you see.

Like - women going topless with a fake beard into a male only hour at a pool - that kind of thing.

HappyAsLarE

Wait a minute. Please tell me that Facebook don’t actually have all those 50 genders available for selection? Please tell me this is a pee take.

Stop the world, I want to jump off.

Annasopra

Malayalam wrote: »

Some might laugh at the example regarding primogeniture laws but it is quite good for demonstrating the contradictions inherent in gender ideology and how it is becoming enshrined in legislation, education and social policy. If law protects gender as a social construct in one area it MUST protect it as a social construct in all areas or else the legislature and legislation as a device is wholly undermined. Something we do at our peril.


People might think oh what harm in the gender unicorn at school but when extrapolated to its logical conclusion the result is transgender identified police persons with birth genitalia intact permitted under UK police guidelines to intimately search people of the gender with which they identify. For example.

(Look it up).

There are going to be so many areas of pushback where people just say No, and then public policy makers are going to either have to reach for extravagant enforcement measures or wake up one day and realize wtf were we thinking.

Only a minute you said "oh I cant comment"

Malayalam

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Only a minute you said "oh I cant comment"

Did I? Can't remember....

Oh well, now I identify as a 'commenter'

LLMMLL

Rennaws wrote: »

Because as has already been explained, this shop has a policy on only cutting male hair.

This customer didn’t just look female, they were female.

The Barber was new and trying to do the right thing and correctly deduced that this customer was a woman.

it ended up costing them €5k.

How is that fair on the barber ?

Because the customer was Male. A trans Male but still Male.

Rory28

Braelyn Stocky Stew wrote: »

Ok. What about the example given earlier of curves - the women's only gym? Is that ok is should they also offer their services to all?

Is it really women only or is it like that car insurance crowd that target their marketing towards women? If it truly is a women's only gym then no I don't think they should be allowed discriminate against men in similar positions to the women that want judgement free place to get in shape.

Normal gyms are fine too by the way. I was always nervous to start going to the gym until i actually started going. the people I was afraid would laugh at me where instead really helpful. Showing me correct ways to use machines and how to get a good routine going. Great place altogether

P_1

Wibbs wrote: »

Because P it's based on simple logic and it fits any individual you care to mention and any gender and sexuality label out there, including every one of the labels Facebook reckons are valid.

I found said list and here it is in all its glory...

Agender
Androgyne
Androgynous
Bigender
Cis
Cisgender
Cis Female
Cis Male
Cis Man
Cis Woman
Cisgender Female
Cisgender Male
Cisgender Man
Cisgender Woman
Female to Male
FTM
Gender Fluid
Gender Nonconforming
Gender Questioning
Gender Variant
Genderqueer
Intersex
Male to Female
MTF
Neither
Neutrois
Non-binary
Other
Pangender
Trans
Trans*
Trans Female
Trans* Female
Trans Male
Trans* Male
Trans Man
Trans* Man
Trans Person
Trans* Person
Trans Woman
Trans* Woman
Transfeminine
Transgender
Transgender Female
Transgender Male
Transgender Man
Transgender Person
Transgender Woman
Transmasculine
Transsexual
Transsexual Female
Transsexual Male
Transsexual Man
Transsexual Person
Transsexual Woman
Two-Spirit

And believe me this isn't the most daft list by any stretch, there are dafter. For a start any label above that includes "trans" is the same bloody thing and fits into my intersex category. The ones containing "CIS" are also the same. Labels like "Agender" Neither, Neutrois, Two-Spirit, Bi-gender, Non-binary, Other, Pangender are nebulous at best, self indulgent identity politics at worst and again the individual will fit into either male, female or intersex. Androgyne and Androgynous again the same thing and again self identitifying and cultural with it(what one culture defines as androgynous differs from what another might).

That's fair enough and you are right some of the labels there are frankly ridiculous.

I actually think we might have a similar enough viewpoint on this but may be using different terms.

Annasopra

Rennaws wrote: »

Because as has already been explained, this shop has a policy on only cutting male hair.

This customer didn’t just look female, they were female.

The Barber was new and trying to do the right thing and correctly deduced that this customer was a woman.

it ended up costing them €5k.

How is that fair on the barber ?

Its not but the barber discrimated against the customer. Thats the consequences.

King of Kings

Rory28 wrote: »

The barber should have just cut the hair. My hoop the barber didn't know trans issues would pass whatever contract he had with the hairdressers. Like most in this thread I would be against transitioning kids or early teenagers but this was an adult. I dont see why they couldnt just cut his hair. You dont have to respect them but you should at least have manners when talking to someone.

Live and let live stops when we stop people using services in their own community.

the issue I have with identity politics is it forces itself on others into areas it never should go.

A person now must be cognisant of trans issues and whatever "offence" is currently in vogue to cut hair. To cut fcuking hair . For fear of being fined.
let that sink in...

The guy made a genuine call based on the lease ...he wasnt rude or offensive...and him or his business is down 5k..

I dispair when I read stuff like this.

HappyAsLarE

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because the customer was Male. A trans Male but still Male.

I could think up many objective criteria that would prove it was a woman.

7aubzxk43m2sni

Rory28 wrote: »

Is it really women only or is it like that car insurance crowd that target their marketing towards women? If it truly is a women's only gym then no I don't think they should be allowed discriminate against men in similar positions to the women that want judgement free place to get in shape.

Normal gyms are fine too by the way. I was always nervous to start going to the gym until i actually started going. the people I was afraid would laugh at me where instead really helpful. Showing me correct ways to use machines and how to get a good routine going. Great place altogether

I'm not sure how the second paragraph is relevant, but cheers.

I'm fairly confident that curves really only serves women, and I appreciate that you're consistent in your belief that a business should not be able to only serve one gender.

7aubzxk43m2sni

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its not but the barber discrimated against the customer. Thats the consequences.

You agree it's unfair?

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Agender
Androgyne
Androgynous
Bigender
Cis
Cisgender
Cis Female
Cis Male
Cis Man
Cis Woman
Cisgender Female
Cisgender Male
Cisgender Man
Cisgender Woman
Female to Male
FTM
Gender Fluid
Gender Nonconforming
Gender Questioning
Gender Variant
Genderqueer
Intersex
Male to Female
MTF
Neither
Neutrois
Non-binary
Other
Pangender
Trans
Trans*
Trans Female
Trans* Female
Trans Male
Trans* Male
Trans Man
Trans* Man
Trans Person
Trans* Person
Trans Woman
Trans* Woman
Transfeminine
Transgender
Transgender Female
Transgender Male
Transgender Man
Transgender Person
Transgender Woman
Transmasculine
Transsexual
Transsexual Female
Transsexual Male
Transsexual Man
Transsexual Person
Transsexual Woman
Two-Spirit

More accurate list.

PlaneSpeeking

Omackeral wrote: »

More accurate list.

Perhaps it's me but you know the progressive crowd who mock religious people (the mad lot, creationists for example) - their argument is always rooted in science. Richard Dawkins - for one.

Yet when it comes to gender - suddenly it's not using science to block beliefs, it's using beliefs and threats of cases like the barber to block science!

LLMMLL

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

I could think up many objective criteria that would prove it was a woman.

Not sure you know the meaning of objective.

P_1

Omackeral wrote: »

More accurate list.

To be fair there is male and female. There is also somewhere in between for some people. Without getting into the minefield that is gender identity politics I think most people get that.

Also remember that in a lot of cases the emptiest vessel makes the most noise.

bodice ripper

I don't see how it's OK to turn down work on the basis of gender. Sure, if a woman comes into the barber looking for layers and a full head of highlights, you don't do that so tough ****. But if it's a short back and sides, what's the ****ing problem?
I had the side of my head shaved for years, and I encountered this a few times. I don't want to pay double or triple in the hairdressers because I have the temerity to have a vagina.

HappyAsLarE

LLMMLL wrote: »

Not sure you know the meaning of objective.

Not influenced by personal beliefs.

PlaneSpeeking

LLMMLL wrote: »

Not sure you know the meaning of objective.

Pot-kettle....

How about:

Female features
Female voice
Female figure

Where do you want to stop ? They are "objective" (and yes I know the meaning of that and lots of other words!) criteria to assume someone is female.

Familiar with your work, so have at the response L.

BarryD2

There's money to be made out of it and where there's money to be made, people will exploit the opportunity.

I agree that it is insidious. Many teenagers go through a questioning period when things are uncertain for them. And this push to question gender identity exploits those normal doubts which would vanish or resolve themselves given a bit of time.

ELM327

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

I could think up many objective criteria that would prove it was a woman.

Like "his" vagina?

PlaneSpeeking

bodice ripper wrote: »

I don't see how it's OK to turn down work on the basis of gender. Sure, if a woman comes into the barber looking for layers and a full head of highlights, you don't do that so tough ****. But if it's a short back and sides, what's the ****ing problem?
I had the side of my head shaved for years, and I encountered this a few times. I don't want to pay double or triple in the hairdressers because I have the temerity to have a vagina.

And you've a fair point there - i have short hair and I'm buggered if I'm paying 50 quid a go!

However, the local barbers in my town will cut women's hair if they want a short back and sides. But this barber had a condition on his lease forbidding him cutting women's hair (something to do with competition with the hairdresser sharing the unit ?)

PlaneSpeeking

ELM327 wrote: »

Like "his" vagina?

And the internal workings....!

ELM327

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And the internal workings....!

Can you direct me to the male sanitary towel department please?

Rory28

King of Kings wrote: »

the issue I have with identity politics is it forces itself on others into areas it never should go.

A person now must be cognisant of trans issues and whatever "offence" is currently in vogue to cut hair. To cut fcuking hair . For fear of being fined.
let that sink in...

The guy made a genuine call based on the lease ...he wasnt rude or offensive...and him or his business is down 5k..

I dispair when I read stuff like this.

I dont think thats the case here at all. We dont have to be up to date on trans issues just treat people courteously. When the customer said they were a trans man that should have been it. The fine is because it was ruled he discriminated. He will now take a case against whoever made the lease that said he couldn't serve women. a ridiculous lease in fairness.

Now I just want to point out I'm not saying I agree with all that 50+ gender nonsense or that we should call ourselves cis men and cis women. You dont call a swan a white swan and all that. Just that if someone asks me to call them a man/woman i'm happy to do so but I will call you as I see you until told otherwise.

bodice ripper

bodice ripper wrote: »

I had the side of my head shaved for years, and I encountered this a few times. I don't want to pay double or triple in the hairdressers because I have the temerity to have a vagina.

Well then they should have gone to an alternative barber who didn't have an agreement with a hairdressers that he wouldn't cut female client's hair.

I don't want to pay for extra in car insurance or suffer harsher prison sentences or be a lesser parent in the eyes of the court because I have the temerity to have a penis

PlaneSpeeking

BarryD2 wrote: »

There's money to be made out of it and where there's money to be made, people will exploit the opportunity.

I agree that it is insidious. Many teenagers go through a questioning period when things are uncertain for them. And this push to question gender identity exploits those normal doubts which would vanish or resolve themselves given a bit of time.

I read a terrifying article not long ago written by a gay man.

He knew he was gay from 12-13 (to be honest, fitting in with most of the people I know who are gay - the may not come out till later but that's when they know).

His mother tries to convince him he was trans. Bought him female clothes, called him by a feminine version of the name (if memory serves he was called Alex and she called him Alice). They even took him to something called The Mermaid Group ? Not familiar there I'm afraid.

That poor lad just wanted to be who he was but well meaning but wholly misguided parents messed up big time.

They could have had a perfectly, healthy, normal, gay son. But that poor lad - still not an adult - will be recovering from this for some time.

Like I've said before, I'm not trans, or gay - just a bog standard straight female tomboy. My parents bought me Scalextrics, and took me to play and watch footy.

I'm not a parent but I imagine that if you give your kids what THEY need, not what you think they SHOULD need, you'll be left with happy adults who love the bones of you.