Off Topic Thread 4.0

Zzippy · 08-07-2018 10:09PM

OldRio wrote: »

I have mentioned intensification. How anyone can blame farmers for this drought I know not. Therefore I too are out.

Strawman arguments, you refuse to debate the points raised then say I made a completely different argument. Your only response on intensification was a truism about not having grass to feed one animal.

Here's some questions for you. Easy yes/no answers.

1. Do you think agriculture in Ireland, specifically beef and dairy, has intensified in the last 5 years?
2. Do you think this is sustainable?
3. Do you think there is enough feed every year, given natural variability, to feed all the extra stock?
4. Do you think farmers should be given aid when they run out of feed?
5. Do you think more intensive agriculture can be done without harm to the environment?
6. Do you think farming in Ireland does not harm the environment?

Dave_The_Sheep · 08-07-2018 10:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Everyone is sceptical. But friends of mine who are smarter than me and well versed in the science behind climate are genuinely concerned about the next 150 years and these would be the last types of people to get alarmed.

We've seen a lot of extreme weather this year and that is going to get worse. I really hope we don't have to wait for this to be 100% completely obvious before we take real action because by then it will be too late.

Just the next 150? I'm concerned we won't make it past 50 more years without a cohesive society.

OldRio · 08-07-2018 11:23PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Strawman arguments, you refuse to debate the points raised then say I made a completely different argument. Your only response on intensification was a truism about not having grass to feed one animal.

Here's some questions for you. Easy yes/no answers.

1. Do you think agriculture in Ireland, specifically beef and dairy, has intensified in the last 5 years?
2. Do you think this is sustainable?
3. Do you think there is enough feed every year, given natural variability, to feed all the extra stock?
4. Do you think farmers should be given aid when they run out of feed?
5. Do you think more intensive agriculture can be done without harm to the environment?
6. Do you think farming in Ireland does not harm the environment?

Yes Yes Yes No(That shocked you didn't it?)
As for the fifth, depends on your definition of intensive but I would say No
Now number six is what you are really leading up to isn't it. What person doesn't harm the environment? The driver of cars? The consumer munching on his vegetarian salad flown from Egypt?
We are as organic as possible on this farm. No nitrates. No chemicals used on the vegetables we grow. Manure and homemade compost only. We were green before it was trendy.
But cars and tractor are driven. I use chemicals on rushes. Therefore do I harm the environment? Yes I probably do.

BTW a truism is what it is. The truth.

prawnsambo · 09-07-2018 09:04AM

I think people use extreme weather events as some kind of proof for both sides of the argument about climate change. Those arguing that climate change is happening use extreme weather events as some kind of proof whilst those denying climate change point to extreme wether events through history as proof that these are natural phenomna and proof of nothing.

The reality imo is that these events are not necessarily proof of anything. There have been many historical examples of extreme wethare in this country. For example we have had a temperature of -2 degrees in August in 1963 in Wicklow. The actual proof of climate change is more subtle. It's been the increasingly milder winters here and the slow disappearance of the line between winter and spring. Those are the trends that we should be worried about.

Buer · 09-07-2018 09:08AM

You have to laugh at some of the reports coming out since the water ban. Lidl selling out of 7,000 litre swimming pools, queues out the gate at car washes and my personal favourite, RTE reporting during yesterday's hurling final about how well the pitch looked and that it was a credit to the ground staff. Then they announced that 60,000 litres of water had gone on the field over the past week.

Is it a stretch to say that we are a nation of self serving gobsh*tes?

irishbucsfan · 09-07-2018 09:12AM

Buer wrote: »

You have to laugh at some of the reports coming out since the water ban. Lidl selling out of 7,000 litre swimming pools, queues out the gate at car washes and my personal favourite, RTE reporting during yesterday's hurling final about how well the pitch looked and that it was a credit to the ground staff. Then they announced that 60,000 litres of water had gone on the field over the past week.

Is it a stretch to say that we are a nation of self serving gobsh*tes?

There's absolutely no enforcement of it.

Anyone ever lived anywhere that has proper enforcement of this stuff? I wonder how we could even achieve it... I think I remember as a child living abroad the local council would drive around looking for offenders...

molloyjh · 09-07-2018 09:14AM

Buer wrote: »

You have to laugh at some of the reports coming out since the water ban. Lidl selling out of 7,000 litre swimming pools, queues out the gate at car washes and my personal favourite, RTE reporting during yesterday's hurling final about how well the pitch looked and that it was a credit to the ground staff. Then they announced that 60,000 litres of water had gone on the field over the past week.

Is it a stretch to say that we are a nation of self serving gobsh*tes?

It is not. Apparently Lidl were asked not to release the pools this week. They did anyway. It's ridiculous. Apparently the Gardai had to be called at one store because a literal fist fight broke out over them. You couldn't make this stuff up.

But don't worry, it's always someone else's fault.

molloyjh · 09-07-2018 09:15AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's absolutely no enforcement of it.

Anyone ever lived anywhere that has proper enforcement of this stuff? I wonder how we could even achieve it... I think I remember as a child living abroad the local council would drive around looking for offenders...

Having metres that monitor peoples usage could help possibly. I think something like that would be a great idea......if only we had them.

09-07-2018 09:15AM

It's kinda raining well drizzly in Connemara best day ever

prawnsambo · 09-07-2018 09:16AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's absolutely no enforcement of it.

Anyone ever lived anywhere that has proper enforcement of this stuff? I wonder how we could even achieve it... I think I remember as a child living abroad the local council would drive around looking for offenders...

I heard an interview with someone from Irish Water a week or so ago where they discussed this. There is absolutely nothing they can do about it. It's not enforceable in any way whatsoever. They just hope people will be sensible. :rolleyes:

thomond2006 · 09-07-2018 09:16AM

Buer wrote: »

You have to laugh at some of the reports coming out since the water ban. Lidl selling out of 7,000 litre swimming pools, queues out the gate at car washes and my personal favourite, RTE reporting during yesterday's hurling final about how well the pitch looked and that it was a credit to the ground staff. Then they announced that 60,000 litres of water had gone on the field over the past week.

Is it a stretch to say that we are a nation of self serving gobsh*tes?

I'll defend Semple Stadium slightly. I was at the Mayo-Tipp football qualifier and the Munster final and walked on the pitch after. It was concrete.

I passed a petrol station in Booterstown yesterday and all car washes were being used. There's no ****ing mud on roads, what do you need to wash your car for?!

molloyjh · 09-07-2018 09:16AM

prawnsambo wrote: »

I heard an interview with someone from Irish Water a week or so ago where they discussed this. There is absolutely nothing they can do about it. It's not enforceable in any way whatsoever. They just hope people will be sensible. :rolleyes:

We're fecked so.

prawnsambo · 09-07-2018 09:19AM

molloyjh wrote: »

We're fecked so.

There's rain forecast from Wednesday onwards. We're saved!

Buer · 09-07-2018 09:19AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's absolutely no enforcement of it.

Anyone ever lived anywhere that has proper enforcement of this stuff? I wonder how we could even achieve it... I think I remember as a child living abroad the local council would drive around looking for offenders...

As far as I'm aware, it's a domestic hosepipe ban so technically there's nothing wrong with the items I cited above. Car washes can continue to operate, the GAA can p*ss away tens of thousands of litres so their pitches look pretty and Lidl can sell whatever they want. But it's all shambolic. All completely non-essential, frivolous uses.

It's the private user who can be taken to task for their actions and for that, they're only going to get people if their neighbours contact the authorities. I believe there were 40 people reported last week but that's a miniscule number as I reckon there's a significant percentage of people who have paid no heed whatsoever.

dregin · 09-07-2018 10:29AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's absolutely no enforcement of it.

Anyone ever lived anywhere that has proper enforcement of this stuff? I wonder how we could even achieve it... I think I remember as a child living abroad the local council would drive around looking for offenders...

At this stage it wouldn't be difficult to spot the lawn that isn't brown. That said, my parents store water in a tank that collects it from the gutters. Is that fsir game or do Irish Water have a legal right to prevent its use? I've a feeling they do.

prawnsambo · 09-07-2018 10:36AM

dregin wrote: »

At this stage it wouldn't be difficult to spot the lawn that isn't brown. That said, my parents store water in a twnk that collects it from the gutters. Is that fsir game or do Irish Water have a legal right to prevent its use? I've a feeling they do.

I would doubt that. Irish Water have responsibility for the reservoirs and the treatment systems and own all the delivery systems from there to each user. Rainfall water is not in their bailiwick afaik.

Afaik, the maximum fine for breach of the ban is €125. But it's unlikely to be used. Also, the ban is not in place for business users who pay water rates. And obviously those who have private wells.

Zzippy · 09-07-2018 11:16AM

OldRio wrote: »

Yes Yes Yes No(That shocked you didn't it?)
As for the fifth, depends on your definition of intensive but I would say No
Now number six is what you are really leading up to isn't it. What person doesn't harm the environment? The driver of cars? The consumer munching on his vegetarian salad flown from Egypt?
We are as organic as possible on this farm. No nitrates. No chemicals used on the vegetables we grow. Manure and homemade compost only. We were green before it was trendy.
But cars and tractor are driven. I use chemicals on rushes. Therefore do I harm the environment? Yes I probably do.

BTW a truism is what it is. The truth.

Anyone who thinks intensification of high-input, high-output agriculture like beef and dairy is sustainable has no regard for the environment or for economics, frankly. The current feed crisis is proving it is not sustainable. If farms cannot provide for animals in a bad year they are overstocked. The decline in water quality is proving it is not sustainable. If there is too much nitrate and phosphate entering our watercourses, there are too many animals. But then, you deny climate change as a fact, so I don't expect you to acknowledge that intensification of agriculture in Ireland is not sustainable either. It's plain you just don't care.

OldRio · 09-07-2018 11:52AM

You have issues with Farmers I called you out for that. I've answered your questions. You don't like the answers. Tough, that's life. People have different opinions.
As for the 'its plain you don't care' jibe. Well let me tell you about our little farm.
Organic as possible. Self sufficient for foodstuffs for about 80 % of the year. That includes meat, milk, veg and fruit. Solar panels for hot water. I draw water from my lake for the plants.
Money made from animals sold and veggies is ploughed back into our lifestyle.
No intensification on this farm. You see me and the wife were green before it was trendy. Nothing is wasted here.
So how much food do you produce at home? Or do you buy in the supermarkets. You know the place that produces an outlet for intensive farming. Do you slaughter your own free range chickens? Or do you buy the factory birds from the supermarkets.
That's the problem with a lot of the trendy greens. Hypocrites the lot.

Zzippy · 09-07-2018 12:03PM

OldRio wrote: »

You have issues with Farmers I called you out for that. I've answered your questions. You don't like the answers. Tough, that's life. People have different opinions.
As for the 'its plain you don't care' jibe. Well let me tell you about our little farm.
Organic as possible. Self sufficient for foodstuffs for about 80 % of the year. That includes meat, milk, veg and fruit. Solar panels for hot water. I draw water from my lake for the plants.
Money made from animals sold and veggies is ploughed back into our lifestyle.
No intensification on this farm. You see me and the wife were green before it was trendy. Nothing is wasted here.
So how much food do you produce at home? Or do you buy in the supermarkets. You know the place that produces an outlet for intensive farming. Do you slaughter your own free range chickens? Or do you buy the factory birds from the supermarkets.
That's the problem with a lot of the trendy greens. Hypocrites the lot.

That's brilliant, fair play to you. But I wasn't talking about small self-sufficient farms, I was clearly talking about large intensive farms keeping cattle for beef and dairy. So get off your high horse and stop taking it like a personal attack on you. You're not the only farmer in the country, and many of your colleagues are running large industrial-scale enterprises that do have large impacts on the environment and are not sustainable. If you can't see the distinction without taking it as a personal affront that's your problem, not mine.

And FYI, I grow spuds, peas, tomatoes, corn, salad crops, apples, strawberries, raspberries, blackcurrants, rhubarb. Don't have room for chickens but of course I buy food in shops too. Does that mean I can't express an opinion on agriculture polluting the rivers and lakes I like to fish? Or do I have to trust the PR image of farmers as responsible custodians of the land, farming sustainable with no impact on the environment, and only they are allowed have an opinion?

molloyjh · 09-07-2018 12:18PM

OldRio wrote: »

You have issues with Farmers I called you out for that. I've answered your questions. You don't like the answers. Tough, that's life. People have different opinions.
As for the 'its plain you don't care' jibe. Well let me tell you about our little farm.
Organic as possible. Self sufficient for foodstuffs for about 80 % of the year. That includes meat, milk, veg and fruit. Solar panels for hot water. I draw water from my lake for the plants.
Money made from animals sold and veggies is ploughed back into our lifestyle.
No intensification on this farm. You see me and the wife were green before it was trendy. Nothing is wasted here.
So how much food do you produce at home? Or do you buy in the supermarkets. You know the place that produces an outlet for intensive farming. Do you slaughter your own free range chickens? Or do you buy the factory birds from the supermarkets.
That's the problem with a lot of the trendy greens. Hypocrites the lot.

I think it's pretty clear that you aren't the type of farmer that Zzippy is taking issue with so I'm not quite sure why you're getting so wound up about this. This country in general has shown that we have a habit of getting ahead of ourselves and not being able to cover the bad days when they do arise. We've seen it at every level in society. It's not a crazy thing to suggest that intensification can be a negative thing if not managed properly. That doesn't mean that everyone is guilty of that type of behaviour though so none of this is a personal attack on you. And while my own experience in farming is pretty much nil, meaning I don't have an educated opinion personally, Zzippy seems to have enough of an understanding to have a reasonable opinion. You can disagree, but you don't need to be so aggressive about it.

As for climate change, the vast majority of experts on the matter agree that it is happening. There will never be definite proof one way or another IMO. Global climate is far too big and complicated to ever allow for that. But a lack of definite proof on something too big to definitively prove, is not proof that it isn't real. Given what is at stake if they are right, and given that most are in agreement, surely the smart and prudent thing to do is to air on the side of caution?

OldRio · 09-07-2018 12:54PM

Zzippy wrote: »

That's brilliant, fair play to you. But I wasn't talking about small self-sufficient farms, I was clearly talking about large intensive farms keeping cattle for beef and dairy. So get off your high horse and stop taking it like a personal attack on you. You're not the only farmer in the country, and many of your colleagues are running large industrial-scale enterprises that do have large impacts on the environment and are not sustainable. If you can't see the distinction without taking it as a personal affront that's your problem, not mine.

And FYI, I grow spuds, peas, tomatoes, corn, salad crops, apples, strawberries, raspberries, blackcurrants, rhubarb. Don't have room for chickens but of course I buy food in shops too. Does that mean I can't express an opinion on agriculture polluting the rivers and lakes I like to fish? Or do I have to trust the PR image of farmers as responsible custodians of the land, farming sustainable with no impact on the environment, and only they are allowed have an opinion?

I know of zero intensive farms in Leitrim. Non.
As I said in a previous post. It doesn't matter how many animals you have if their is no fodder. This crisis has nothing to do with intensive farming, although it gave you an opportunity to rant about farmers. The crisis is about a weather event. 42 years in the making.
That is the Crux of my argument.

09-07-2018 01:13PM

OldRio wrote: »

I know of zero intensive farms in Leitrim. Non.
As I said in a previous post. It doesn't matter how many animals you have if their is no fodder. This crisis has nothing to do with intensive farming, although it gave you an opportunity to rant about farmers. The crisis is about a weather event. 42 years in the making.
That is the Crux of my argument.

I know a handful of farmers through family and friends and all of them are very concerned this year. They haven't changed the scale of their farming and would be sustainable in their practices but are still expecting to have to buy fodder in costly quantities again this year.

These are people with their own water sources, but no viable way to get that water onto their land without causing a myriad of other issues.

We've had two freak weather events this year. We may not see the likes again for another decade but they will start happening more frequently and this could quickly become the new normal. How long until people start to really panic? I stood in a long queue during the winter waiting to get some essentials for my mum and honestly we were one security guard preventing a family of arseholes trying to skip the queue away from things descending into a free for all.

Zzippy · 09-07-2018 01:20PM

OldRio wrote: »

I know of zero intensive farms in Leitrim. Non.
As I said in a previous post. It doesn't matter how many animals you have if their is no fodder. This crisis has nothing to do with intensive farming, although it gave you an opportunity to rant about farmers. The crisis is about a weather event. 42 years in the making.
That is the Crux of my argument.

Yes, because Leitrim is ideally suited to intensive farming :rolleyes:. That's why half the county is covered in forestry plantations I suppose.

We've had several fodder shortages in recent years, this certainly is not the first one in 42 years. I recall very clearly colleagues who farm appearing on tv in 2010 getting fodder trucked in from abroad. We had a fodder crisis less than 2 months ago after the long winter. Now we have another one now with a drought. And my argument is that fodder would not be as short on many farms if they had not intensified their operations in recent years and increased stock levels, but instead of discussing that you take everything as a personal affront and resort to insults.

molloyjh · 09-07-2018 01:22PM

OldRio wrote: »

I know of zero intensive farms in Leitrim. Non.
As I said in a previous post. It doesn't matter how many animals you have if their is no fodder. This crisis has nothing to do with intensive farming, although it gave you an opportunity to rant about farmers. The crisis is about a weather event. 42 years in the making.
That is the Crux of my argument.

Correct me of I'm wrong here, but the issue is fodder shortage brought on by the weather and not strictly the weather itself? So surely when discussing this the most relevant information is fodder shortages, not matching weather conditions. Fodder shortages can happen for a number of reasons can't they? And this isn't even the first fodder shortage this year, let alone in 42 years. Wasn't there one due to the snow? And another coming into the winter last year? Wasn't there one around this time last year then too? There was one back in 2013 as well as Zzippy mentioned? So that's 4 in the last 12/18 months and 5 in the last 5 years, no?

kuang1 · 09-07-2018 01:23PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

IWe've had two freak weather events this year. We may not see the likes again for another decade but they will start happening more frequently and this could quickly become the new normal. How long until people start to really panic?

Erm... Would you have people panicking now?

I don't have a strong opinion on all of this mainly due to how relatively little I know about it all, but statements like the quoted above do sound a little sensationalist tbf.

OldRio · 09-07-2018 02:09PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Yes, because Leitrim is ideally suited to intensive farming :rolleyes:. That's why half the county is covered in forestry plantations I suppose.

We've had several fodder shortages in recent years, this certainly is not the first one in 42 years. I recall very clearly colleagues who farm appearing on tv in 2010 getting fodder trucked in from abroad. We had a fodder crisis less than 2 months ago after the long winter. Now we have another one now with a drought. And my argument is that fodder would not be as short on many farms if they had not intensified their operations in recent years and increased stock levels, but instead of discussing that you take everything as a personal affront and resort to insults.

Did I say intensive farming suited Leitrim ?
I'm sure I didn't.
We were discussing the drought this year. The worst in 42 years. I never said it was the first fodder crisis in 42 years.
You dodge my argument time and time again. If you have no grass. You can't feed anything. Drought conditions. 1 or 100 animals cannot be fed.
I'm talking about this fodder crisis. The reason is no rain. Period.
Look believe what you want to. I have much better things to do with my time.

09-07-2018 02:29PM

kuang1 wrote: »

Erm... Would you have people panicking now?

I don't have a strong opinion on all of this mainly due to how relatively little I know about it all, but statements like the quoted above do sound a little sensationalist tbf.

It doesn't take much for people to panic, a tiny lack of confidence in the housing market can result in a crash. A bit of snow and we run out of bread. Serious talk of food shortages or lack of drinking water and people will react similarly.

I'm not predicting the break down of society, I'm just saying people will panic at the first sign of a challenge to their way of life.

Zzippy · 09-07-2018 02:59PM

OldRio wrote: »

Did I say intensive farming suited Leitrim ?
I'm sure I didn't.
We were discussing the drought this year. The worst in 42 years. I never said it was the first fodder crisis in 42 years.
You dodge my argument time and time again. If you have no grass. You can't feed anything. Drought conditions. 1 or 100 animals cannot be fed.
I'm talking about this fodder crisis. The reason is no rain. Period.
Look believe what you want to. I have much better things to do with my time.

Where's that moving goalposts meme when you need it...

1 or 100 animals cannot be fed on fresh grass in a drought. That does not mean they cannot be fed hay or silage. You know, like they're fed every winter, when "you have no grass and 1 or 100 animals cannot be fed". Should farmers only plan for predictable 4 month winters with growth starting in February, or should they plan for inclement weather including long winters, late spring, summer droughts, all of which have happened a lot more recently than 1976?

OldRio wrote: »

We were discussing the drought this year. The worst in 42 years. I never said it was the first fodder crisis in 42 years.

It doesn't matter how many animals you have if their is no fodder. This crisis has nothing to do with intensive farming, although it gave you an opportunity to rant about farmers. The crisis is about a weather event. 42 years in the making.

:rolleyes:

prawnsambo · 09-07-2018 03:06PM

Zzippy wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Umm, I don't think those two quotes are as contradictory as you seem to think.

Buer · 09-07-2018 03:38PM

Such a shame a lot of the soaps on television have been disrupted by the World Cup. Thankfully, the Tory party is providing more entertainment than any soap opera ever did.

Off Topic Thread 4.0

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